Bravo Daydream! I couldn’t agree more. And yes we DO breed the best of our type/breed to the best. And in doing so we produce NICE MOVING horses that still are VERY competitive, but are good minded horses that are easy to ride. Not EVERY hrose needs to have FEI capabilities and not every horse WILL, regardless of how you select for it.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Anne:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>That conformation is something I would expect from hunters, not from jumpers or dressage horses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Trailblazer, I am very interested in this. Why would you expect a hunter to be more poorly conformed than a jumper or dressage horse? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Enough! Anyone who has read my posts know I usually express my opinion, but try not to get too snarky. But this is too much.
Trailblazer: you have shown over and over and OVER again you have basically NO knowledge of the sport of dressage & no knowledge of the basic type of movement desired for most of the FEI-type sports. You don’t breed WBs, you don’t breed dressage horses, you didn’t recognize WELTMEYER for heaven’s sake when a video of him under saddle was shown (AND you critized his trot 
). Your knowledge base is close to ZERO on these matters, so why do you keep piping up with your opinion?
Just to stir the pot?
aurum has been breeding sporthorses (WBs) for a long, long time and was producing color before color was cool. She is to be commended for her accomplishments because she has fought an uphill battle most of the way.
She has put her horses out there to be judged over and over again…and if anyone can tell you what will be judged highly in the WB world, aurum can. So listen and learn.
Tawny ~ I like your filly alot, but I think you might expect to have the in-hand judges grade her down for the exactly the reasons aurum pointed out.
However, I have to say from your photos she can really move ! She is definitely “my” type of horse; light, elegant, refined, but still with some power. But I’m not judging Devon 
In the end, it’s about performance. And, as Cartier pointed out that will take decades to accomplish.
So, as I said before Tawny ~ do what makes your heart sing, because that is what makes getting up every morning worthwhile. But don’t be too crushed if others don’t see your gal in the same way you do. THAT is when you will have to make some hard choices: do you produce what will be rewarded in the outside world, or do you produce what makes YOU happy?
Oh, and sorry for the draft comment about Max…I had him confused with another buckskin pinto WB/cross stallion.
Cartier ~ I didn’t know either of those two BT studs. My involvement with BTs goes back over 25 years ago. Then my last BT died and I took a walk over to the dark side and got Jack Russells 
And are you kidding about the Doodles? Did someone really pay $1200 for a mutt? I mean, was this first generation? Man, there really IS a sucker born every minute!!
And one of them is ME for spending tens of thousands of $$$$ on horses when I could be breeding mutts to sell for $1200 per pup!!!
shawnee_acres–
I am thinking of crossing ASB’s to Apps of sporthorse type and movement. I think if I could just find the perfect leopard App stallion and cross to a suitable ASB mare I would get the most strikingly spotted, elegant foal. I do know of a tall, large-boned leopard App stallion near me and I just might do it this spring if I find the right broodmare.
Daydream Believer–
Your stallion does look very Lusitano in appearance. I really like his coloring. I wouldn’t be suprised to see you have good success with your breeding program. There is a growing market of people out there who want something unconventional, easy to handle, versatile, comfortable, and smaller.
I attached a link to my webshots page of my stallion and my two broodmares.
http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=viewAllPhotos&albumID=230017058
My stallion , at 6, is so intelligent and gentle that I held a maiden mare in the pasture (she wouldn’t stand still for him!) and left him lose. When the mare was ready for him I just called him over to do the deed. When I told him to stay back or move away, he did exactly that. This was his first breeding season. To me, the mind is everything. I have started him over fences, had a pro-jumper rider on him as well as a pro-dressage rider, and the suprise and then the verdict is the same–upper level potential. I am not suprised. He may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but the people who have actually experienced him are blown away. With a mind like he has, with the athletic ability he has, I am proud to own and produce foals from him. I cannot wait to get mine next year!!! 
Wow, you gotta show us pictures!!!
aurum–
I am not offended by what you have said. I understand your perspective so maybe try to understand mine. We probably won’t agree but that is okay too.
Euro WB’s were based on stock native to their region or country, et. They crossed Thoroughbred, Arab, Trakehner, Shagya blood back on their stock to refine it and make it a better riding horse. They also allowed other fine horses produced in this same manner from different Euro countries to breed to their stock. The refinemnt continues today and so they still allow Thoroughbred and Arab in.
Euro breeders only had Thoroughbreds and Arabs as their high-quality refining element.
We, as Americans, have bred many types of light horses that would be excellent refining elements on WB’s. We know this for a fact with our ASBxWB’s.
So, to reiterate, we see many of our PURE ASB sporthorse types (which predominate the breed, btw) as comparable to the Thoroughbred or Arab as a refiner for WB’s.
We, as Americans, also want to breed our PURE breeds as upper level sporthorses. Thses breeds have been competing at high levels of sport in this country for a long time. To say that the only thing a Quarter Horse can do is western reining, an App can do is be a colorful trailhorse, a Morgan can do is pull a cart, a Standardbred trot, is to say that the only thing a Thoroughbred can do is race.
And we all know better than that!
It depends on what horses are specifically bred for. Any riding horse that has walk/trot/canter gaits can be bred (with the right knowledge of conformation and movement)as an upper level sporthorse. At least any of the ones I mentioned above.
I don’t really understand this. Why is it not possible to have a good foal recognized, what is different with this filly? Can you enlighten me?
I believe the filly Tawna has is quite nice.
Her croup is a little flatter than what we are most used to seeing but this does not mean she has a long back or weak muscling. I have seen a number of Westphalians and Hanoverians that are flatter through the croup.
Her back is actually med.-short and her loin longer. There is good length to her pelvis. Her coupling is also a little longer but tied in well enough that she should have no weight carrying disadvantages.
She powers well from behind.
And a very good neck set and uphill build. The lighter bone doesn’t bother me as I am well aquainted with ASB’s be they large or lighter boned and they have immense endurance and soundness, regardless. The “big-boned” theory came about more from the current market in the last 30 years…Europeans were producing large-boned sporthorses (i.e. warmbloods) because their native stock were, for the most part, large, less-refined, draft or carriage type horses. If one has noticed, which I’m sure many have, the European breeding goal seems to be to produce lighter, more sensitive, and responsive horses.
If the Europeans had no problem using their own native stock to produce today’s warmbloods, I say more power to Americans using their own native breeding stock to produce their own sporthorses. Why was it okay for them and not for us?
As for ASB’s; they are a fantastic riding horse with the qualities most people want in their horses. A huge intelligence, gentleness, spirit without craziness, athletic ability beyond the norm, and a trainability that surpasses almost every breed of horse I’ve worked with. And I must mention comfort! Their way of moving, which isn’t naturally “gaited”, is so smooth and wonderful. Try cantering one of these animals sometime and I promise you’ll not have a more lovely, uphill canter.
Crossing them to the warmblood produces a highly intelligent, trainable, courageous equine with the uphill build and sheer elegance.
Crossing them to baroque types brings out their mutual Spanish ancestry and the best of both worlds.
Breeding the purebred types that I have specifically chosen for upper level sporthorse disciplines is my focus. I wouldn’t change it for the world!
I’m sold on this breed and I also advocate the use of other American breeds to produce American sporthorses.
I think we are back to the fact that many breeders are not aspiring to the olympic level horse. And most buyers are not looking for such a horse. Demand is what generates supply, if the demand is for the nice lower level hrose that is affordable, rideable and sensible then guess waht the majority of hroses being produced will be. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure THAT one out! Would I like to breed a hrose that was Olympic caliber, well heck yeah, who wouldn’t! But is that a likely reality, I doubt it. Does that make my program/breed any less desirable, no I think it makes it MORE desirable
these horses are an asset???
We have not approached this as a business. Rather, it is a passion… so I am no expert… but with the feed bills, vet bills, farrier bills, cost of fencing, barn, pasture, real estate taxes, mortgage on acreage… trainer… showing etc… 
these horses are an asset? Are you sure? 
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
DB, we usually agree, but here we disagree, I fear. I DO understand what you are saying. Heck, breeding often blisteringly hot temperaments into ponies–like I do–isn’t exactly swimming downstream…but–and you’ve heard me write this before, I’m sure–breeding for “average” makes little sense either, at least in some minds.
There is already an overabundance of “average” horses out there, many of which end up being unwanted and abused. Many–myself included–believe that for the sake of the horse, it behooves (er, spelling?) a breeder to set the bar high.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I think you are missing my point completely. Just because someone is not breeding for the olympic market does NOT mean they are breeding average quality. I am not breeding average quality spanish mustangs…I am breeding the very best I could find after multiple trips out west to large ranchers to pick out my stock. My stock’s strongest point is their super temperments coupled with an old world elegance in their movement, type and a real ability to do dressage correctly. You have seen my ponies up close and know their quality… I realize that many here have not so they don’t know how dead serious I am as a breeder. My goals as a breeder are to breed the best horses I can but I am realistic in knowing my market is not olympic riders but amateurs.
That is all I am saying. I am not promoting the breeding of mediocre stock but see nothing wrong with my business plan realistically targeting amateurs instead of top olympic trainers. I think you folks are just totally mistaking what I am saying.
The problem I see is the conformation of some of the US breeds. I do not see a TWH or ASB being good for dressage as their body conformation is normally too long in their back. Two horse types that would fit into the crossbreeding with WBs, would certainly be the Mustang (basic Spanish bred and brought into the country by Spanish conquestadores) and the Morgan horse. Those are the horses that have the closest type to a small Warmblood… well my opinion if someone wants to restart the WB breeding in USA from scratch.
I love this thread, as I breed draft cross mares to WB stallions. Just starting, only have 3 crops on the ground. First crop, was one, bred as a riding horse for me. Of course I’d sell him, but he is not actively for sale. Boadie, is just 2, and has the best temperment, that part of the program worked, only time will tell about performance.
Last years foal, I did not bred, just picked the mares that were already in foal. They went to a small hunter barn in So.CA.
This years crop is by a first time stallion. I have one very fancy foal, one very tradional cookie cutter foal, and one that, by sporthorse standards, could use a little more neck. I bred the dams of the first two foals back to that same stallion. The other mare went to a different stallion, one that I hope will improve her neck. (I’m thinking about checking out Max for her 2006, I love ASB and my husband wants a buckskin.)
Tawna your filly is beautiful. I someday plan to keep a filly to replace one of my mares, I haven’t bred her yet, but will.
You all seem to miss the point. This thread was about THIS specific filly and she is not the quality that her sire has. Nothing more or less and I would not breed further with a filly or mare that is less quality than the sire. Breeding is to take always the best to produce the best as that does not even mean you always get the best just like Curioso George said so very true. It takes years and learning to see what is better and to understand that you should only use the best to breed on instead of taking what you like. Breeding should or better must be taken serious as you also have a responsability for the animals that you produce. If you cannot sell them or if people are not happy with what they bought, what do you think where some may end?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by lindac:
…
You take the TOP WB’s in Europe and what do they look like? Chunky Saddlebreds. Their necks come out high and hingey, they have lots of hock action and anymore lots of front end action too. So they are breeding this “type” over there.
… </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yours in sport,
Lynn
I think she is very pretty! 
I have had a few horses that were very special! I have a 30 old Arabian mare that I bought as a kid as a hunter. Against my trainers wishes “Because she was an Arabian and little, an a mare etc” Well I showed her as a Childrens Hunter and won all the time!!! She taught me how to ride! She is my best friend! She can do ANYTHING. "Except trail rides, she hates them! " She has pulled carragies, gone western, done dressage , done the hunters, done jumpers, been a mom 2 times, showed at Arab shows and Reg rated Hunter A shows.
I would NEVER sell her!!! She did not fit what you would think of as your regular Hunter, but it did not matter. I am a believer that a nice horse is a nice horse no matter what is does!
I never SAID that I was not trying to improve my horses, You guys interpret everything the way YOU want to interpret it. The fact that I breed affordable NICE hroses that the average hrose owner can afford to own and DO WELL WITH does not imply taht theya re a “Dime a dozen” horse. WHY is it necessary that ALL hroses be priced at $10K as weanlings/yearlings and be “super fancy”? Not everyone can afford that or want that, but that does not mean my horses should be discounted. I am SO tired of people talking as if a good moving, sensible animal with correct conformation and a distinct “type” is a backyard horse! I’m not TALKING about a horse that you’d get at the feed lot, I’m TALKING about a horse that is competitive on a level that the MAJORITY of peopel will be competing at. PLEASE stop likening my horses to some grade pony with parts from five different horse. Becuase if thats NOT waht you are doing it sure sounds liek you ARE!
Now, now, Shawnee–I didn’t call ANYONE a backyard breeder. I merely used it, in as literal a sense as possible, as an example to illustrate a point.
Nor do I use, EVER, the term “inferior.”
Here’s what I’ve learned HERE from years of reading what WB people say–sometimes clearly, sometimes not so clearly: the WB system has some advantages in that they have kept records (certainly not perfect ones, but at least they exist) on their horses for generations and always with very specific purposes in mind (jumping or dressage being the most relevant ones for this discussion). Those records and taht system enable them to PREDICT more accurately (note, I did NOT SAY more “perfectly” or anything of the sort) what the outcome of crossing certain lines will be.
And that’s OUR problem, here in this country–including MY problem: crossbreeding is unpredictable until it has been done for generations. It doesn’t MATTER what your stallion has done. It doesn’t even matter how successful SOME Of his get have been. What matters is how consistently he produces “significantly” successful get when crossed on mare of X or Y or Z type.
Because no individual produces perfection 100% of the time–or even close.
Crossbreeding is a crapshoot until you invest–as the Europeans have–years and years on tracking the results. Sure, you can get lucky…
But can you do it AGAIN…
And again?
And AGAIN?
A stallion doesn’t prove himself in isolation. He proves himself ON MARES and he proves himself FOR A SPECIFIC PURPOSE. If that purpose is not challenging enough to demand a specific TYPE of horse, then nothing is really being proven (since ANY type of horse could “succeed” in that area), except perhaps a very trainable temperament in his babies. But if we are talking about dressage or jumping beyond “average” levels, then those ARE sports where the “proof” can be reeeeal hard coming.
My stallion produced some unusually talented animals…but gosh, darn, he sired well over 300 babies! Heaven knows how many were total duds. Heaven knows how many I might have predicted WOULD be duds if I had had any data on their dams and their backgrounds (as much data as I did on Ted himself and his progenitors and siblings at stud, etc.). I DO know that his fillies have often been total bitches, but they oddly enough produce sweet boys (and more bitchy fillies). THAT I have enough data to say. I also know he’d throw a big stride when crossed on a big stride, but I can’t say–because I don’t have enough data–that he could IMPROVE stride length on any particular type of mare.
I’m not criticizing any one type over another here. I’m criticizing breeders who refuse to be REALISTIC about the world around them. Dream on, that’s your right and that of whoever is footing the bill. But don’t get offended when others can’t afford to just dream. (Edited to add: …and see fit to remind people of that economic reality.)
300 BABIES!?!?!??! 
I would take the backyard breeders over the puppy mills any day of the week! 
I bred my keeper foal he was foaled this year I am hoping he is a tad toward the heavier side as his father is - he has the most laid back temperment of any baby we have ever had…besides who would want to buy a foal I named “Stinky” ?? I tempted to just show him under that name huge dapple grey gelding floating into the ring announced as Stinky…nice…
