Dual topic.. "Keeper" foals and "untrendy" breeding philosophies

[WhatzUp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Big Fred:
I have absolutely no experience of native american horses, but would say this…The demands and requirements on and of the modern sport horse, have created the modern sport horse. At the moment, the ideal horse for both dressage and show jumping, seems to be the European warmblood (whatever that is now ). If there were another breed or race which could do the job better, it would have done so by now. Buyers/breeders/riders etc aren’t totally stupid (just occassionaly ), so if they believed that the ancient-man-eating-tarpan-of-upper-mesapotamia could jump a 6 foot track and then run off a quick Olympic standard test, they’d be queueing up at the doors of the place I just said, which I don’t actually know where it is (help please ).

If an American saddle-bred-half-pint-aloosa-super-size-that-oh-err-strawberry-please, is up to the job described above, then bring it on, no one is going to complain…quite the contrary…they’ll be queueing up at your door, and you’ll be a millionaire.

There will be hundreds of examples of American natives doing fantastic jobs in various sports, but they don’t prove me wrong, because I’m not saying they can’t do it, just that we’re not seeing them in Vegas or Athens </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly; well written.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

[trailblazer]

I’ll be the first to say I don’t like the foal in aurum’s pictures. No type, short low-set neck, back at the knee. That conformation is something I would expect from hunters, not from jumpers or dressage horses.

Tawna, your filly is also not perfect (as if any horse is ) . Straightish shoulder, small hind end, very fine boned. But if “Magic Colors” is the standard, your girl is NOT a step backwards! A different type, but in no way worse, conformation-wise. You said that you know she isn’t a WB. So it doesn’t really matter if she doesn’t meet WB standards, does it? I’m assuming you must want some of the ASB traits to come through, or else why on earth would you have bred to one, right?

The nice thing about fillies is that you don’t have to make any breeding decisions for a long time. I’d wait until she grows up and evaluate her conformation then. This combined with her soundness, temperament, and performance history will give you a good indication if she is breeding quality. Just remember, even if she is not breeding quality does not mean she cannot excel and make your breeding program look good!

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Cartier ~ I didn’t know either of those two BT studs. My involvement with BTs goes back over 25 years ago. Then my last BT died and I took a walk over to the dark side and got Jack Russells </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No big… I was just hoping that you knew them. They were BIG trend setters. Peter and William are from the late 1970’s - 1980’s Peter (Ch. Monkery’s Buckskin (1977 -1983) is one of the top Bull Terrier sires in breed history, with over 75 champions. Am. Can. Ch Bulwark’s Iceni Just William won the Lovell Trophy and The Best of Opposite Variety Trophy at the 1984 Silverwood XV. The Iceni kennel is world renown and Lynne and Bob Myall have judged all over the world, including Montgomery and the Silverwood. Though an import, Peter was not popular until breeders started to see what he could produce.

[Big_Fred]

Sorry Lynn, I’ll get them to you today, could you PM me with your email, I’m not so good at sending stuff via PM!

[KimPeterson]

This is the first one I have got to “keep” my filly of 2003 was suppose to be this mares last foal and a keeper but was purchased by a large show barn in West Palm beach - she will be proving her “metal” in competition next year and they get a lot of compliments on her - her barn name is Miss oh lala but her registered name was EmberZ in case you run across her

Stinky is only a baby so he has a way to go yet

I think Cricket also plans on showing her filly by cavaleer which will be interesting since they look a good deal alike - he wasn’t used as an “outside” standing breeding stallion until last year…

[Cartier]

Daydream Believer… check the times on your post and my most recent edit * You posted and I edited at the same time… I think we agree here more than you realize. Maybe the problem is that we need more varied smiley face icons for the subtleties and nuances of our posts.

*English prof always said, “good writing is re-writing.” Thank god for that edit button!!!

[pwynnnorman]

Trailblazer, I haven’t a clue, since somewhere around 80% were via transported semen. But since most folks who use TS aren’t total idiots, I suspect most aren’t too poorly off. Seriously, though, does it occur to you that he was just somewhat popular and thus managed to attract a consistently decent size of book over a fairly long period of time? I said I’ve been at it for 20 years: I had Teddy, or owned a share of him, for 18 of those years. That’s only what? 12-14 mares a year, on average. Your insinuation only shows your lack of mileage in this area, methinks.

And, really, DB, who said ANYTHING at any time about “quality”? I used the term average–and was not necessarily referring to any particular person’s program. What does average mean? It means much like the rest. Now, “below average” THAT is inferior. Average means it doesn’t offer anything beyond what it typically offered. Moreover, DB, I made a point to state that I was NOT including purebreds whose blood, as WELL AS OTHER TRAITS, also had value/contributions to make. I thought by including that I was clarifying to you that I wasn’t referring to your program.

Look, folks, I AM A NICHE BREEDER. I’m one of you, struggling with the same issues you are. But I do think I’m more realistic than some of you because as much as I’d like to ignore them, I can’t afford to ignore what sells, too. Good conformation sells better than flawed conformation, whether it is the filly herself or whatever she might produce. In using the word “flawed” I’ve even taken the time to point out specific things AND indicate that others can and will disagree with me.

Those of you who have taken offense have not stated on single specific thing about the filly at hand to counter my statements about the flaws “I” perceive in her that might prevent her from fulfilling sporthorse goals BEYOND THE AVERAGE LEVEL.

Yeah, yeah. I know you get offended by the word average, but maybe if you could remember that I mean it literally and with respect to performance, not looks or type, then you will realize that what you call an amateur’s horse, perhaps I’m simply using the word “average” to describe the same thing. And as someone else put it, many think that it makes more sense to breed for the top, realizing that most of the time all you are going to get is average. Using the same logic, if you breed intentionally for average, you might risk getting below average more often than you’d like.

Again, dream on, but the fact is that crossbreeding unknowns produces unknowns more often than not. It’s just that simple. I know. I DUNNIT!

[Sonesta]

Well, here are my thoughts.

Yes, I have definitely had a couple that stood out and “spoke” to me and they are NOT for sale at any price (well, maybe not ANY price, but it would surely take a lot).

As for the other matter of her not moving like the other “cookie cutter” wb foals and how she will, therefore, do at shows: You just gotta realize that, like it or not, THOSE FOALS move in the way the sporthorse world WANTS them to move. That’s why they were bred that way. If your horse moves “differently” it will likely be seen as incorrect for the sporthorse world and will, therefore, not score as well.

Doesn’t mean the horse is not pefect for YOU; just not what the established sporthorse world wants and has been breeding toward for decades.

[aurum]

America has such nice breeds and I just do not understand why they have to be “modified” to “create” a Warmblood for competition, to try to re-invent the wheel that has been invented centuries ago already, as there are already Warmbloods bred for the Olympic disciplines and they excell perfect or why would everybody want them, buy them and is succeeding with them?

In Europe the people love to buy the American breeds in PURE breeding within their race. They buy them and import them as pleasure horses, not to compete in jumping or dressage competitions and NEVER anyone would buy a ASB cross or whatever to excell in the Olympic disciplines. I for one would love to have a nice Palomino or Buckskin PAINT not taller than 15.1 hh easy going to make me want to ride again as I am getting old and the WBs are now just too tall for me. The way down to earth is now getting too long…

But what is for sure, is the fact that as long as Americans do not understand the ongoing rules of breeding real Warmbloods and think that crossing “y” to “x” breed makes a Warmblood to be good enough for American competition riders, that long do WE in Europe have the market alone to fulfill their dreams.

I do not mean to be rude with this, it is just a “wake up” call before the train has left the train station…

[shawnee_Acres]

Ruach,

Would love for you to try a saddlebred to our app stallion, would be interested to see what you would produce. I myself am looking at an arab mare to cross on our appaloosa sport stallion, in hopes of getting a filly to cross back into our “backyard” (since that seems to be what we are labled now!) program. We have two JC TB mares due to him in 2006, one app mare and one app x TB mare, as well as a TB mare we bred for another owner.

[Cartier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>have to disagree somewhat with Cartier and Big Fred. YES, it has been my experience that most breeders are barn blind ~ stallion owners, too for that matter. It’s like the horses are their children or something and they can see no fault.

Of course, as a breeder you cannot advance if you cannot see the failures you’ve made along with your successes. So in that part I agree.

But the part I might take issue with is using the show ring as the final evaluation of your breeding success. There are trends and fashions in the show ring just like any place else…we all know this to be true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just a correction I didn’t say the “show ring is the final evaluation.” Rather, I said, performance competitions are “ useful” and “In horses, performance results have a similar function… they are arguably an objective measure of whether our “eye” is truly all we believe.’

For example, if you say you are breeding FEI horses of international caliber, but never actually compete at the FEI level than your claim is rather weak and arguably not grounded in fact. Similarly, if you claim to have a great jumper, but never compete in Hunters or Show Jumping etc., it’s difficult to say any credible evidence supports your claim. Whatever one wishes to breed, be it horses, dogs or poka-dotted ducks… if they are bred for a purpose, the claim that you are producing superior poka-dotted ducks is stronger if you actually have some performance results to back it up.

Off topic, Kyzteke, if you are a fan of Bull Terriers, do you remember the great brindle Ch Bullwark’s Iceni Just William? Or Peter (a.k.a CH. Monkery’s Buskskin)? I had the pleasure to know both. You could say that both bucked the “trends" of the day… one is remembered as one of the greatest Bull Terriers in the history of the breed (and one of the greatest sires of any breed with over 75 champions), the other was a bit of a disaster as a stud dog (because of his bite). I remember that Tom Horner (who was a house guest of Bob and Lynne’s at the time), hated William.

[Krallen]

I stay away from “untrendy” bloodlines because I like to buy young 2 or 3 year olds, put a year or so on them, and sell them. Frankly, even with a very average WB with decent lines, I can sell it, and for good money. I’d be afraid I couldn’t sell an untrendy bloodline. I wonder if I would even get calls for a WB/ASB prospect even if it was amazing, and I’m not in the market to be able to hold onto one for 4 or 5 years to get it into upper level competition. I’m not biased against other breeds - I’ve had many crazy crosses, but it’s just not for me and how I try to run my little operation. Perhaps one day when I want to buy a horse just for myself that I’ll keep to ride I’d consider it, but if I keep steering towards current trends, my horse hobby at least supports itself.

[shawnee_Acres]

Thanks Fred! We like him and we LOVE your horse!!!

[KimPeterson]

I heard reining and western riding is becoming a big thing over there…my friend Hans is having me scope out QH’s for him here…he use to be a dressage rider!!

[Cartier]

Curiouso Jorge posted <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Notice that the saying is not “breed mediocre to mediocre to get horses for the lesser people to ride.” </div></BLOCKQUOTE> which I think is funny, hence but I do NOT mean to offend anyone I imagine that the poster also did not mean to offend or that it applied to anyone specifically … rather, it was just a statement in general. And how is this for sucking all the life out of the comment?

And on a different train of thought altogether… <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Glad to see this was set back on track - thanks, Cartier. You made some very good points. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>thanks Lianne… wish you all the best…

[Ladybug_Hill]

I don’t think I took anything out of context. I am not the great supporter of the breed in question. Just think that they may get bashed unnecessarily.

I think unique breeding programs are great! Of course careful selection is prudant in order to not produce unmarketable/unwanted horses. Personally, I am a fairly traditional breeder since I can only produce a foal or two a year and I need that “promise” of consistency.

Don’t forget the WB breeding in the hunters was unconventional once!!

I have enjoyed this thread since it has allowed me to voice many of the opinions that I have wanted to since joining this BB. I am NEVER intentionally rude or arrogant, so forgive me if my posts ever come across that way–the limitation of the typed correspondance.

[Ridge_Runner]

Kim,

No, I haven’t seen that cross yet but it sure sounds nice! Andalusians were bred from the same original stock but with bullfighting in mind and of course many of the old colors like duns and pintos have been selected out of the breed. There were some outcrosses made also to outside blood that increased their size fromthe original Barb stock. The spanish mustangs we believe look much the same as they did 500 years ago when they got off the boat from Spain since no one has tried to intentionally change them to suit a purpose.

I hope more people feel the way you do…that there are some benefits from crossing back to this old world blood. I think many of our modern sporthorses could use a good dose of this blood to bring back some of the good bone, tough feet, sensible temperments and even the movement. I am finding my little spanish mustangs to be nice little sporthorse types with the ability to really sit down behind and lift. Modern sporthorse breeding is so focused on movement that I’m afraid they are losing some of the “sitability” and the temperment as a result…and soundness is certainly not what it should be IMO.

Here’s a pic of my stallion from this past weekend. Someone on another board thought he looked very Lusitano in this pic:

Cisco

He was crossed to a QH and to an Arab mare. Both foals turned out with his temperment…very easy going and with elegant movement. The QH baby is much lighter than his dam and very athletic. I think a TB cross would be very neat and would turn out a lot like a Connemara/TB…very athletic and with the best of both breeds.

[Ruach_Farms]

Lynn,

I won’t try and convince you that ASB’s and the crosses are Olympic material. They have to show that they can compete at that level of performance and that will simply take time.

Do I believe they are capable? Yes, in the right hands, absolutely. We are breeding for horses that can compete at upper level disciplines…if an Olympic caliber sporthorse comes out of that, that will be wonderful.

Perhaps oneday you will see that it has been accomplished. I certainly hope so. Isn’t that any breeders/registry’s daydream?

For right now I desire for people to come to know what we are producing and enjoy our beautiful, talented horses at many different levels.

Thank you for the appreciation of my passion. Everyone does have a view and I agree, are completely entitled to it.

[Ridge_Runner]

Could be you are right Cartier but I think dogging Tawna over her choice of saddlebreds for breeding instead of warmbloods is wrong. Each to their own. Not all of us feel like modern warmbloods are the end all or perfect horse.

I really think like Adventure Beach said…Tawna was looking to hear from other maverick breeders, not to have her breeding program slammed because it is non traditional.

We are posting simultaneously…but your last point is dead on. Not all of us are breeding for the Olympics. Many of us are targeting the amateur market. I know that I am.

[Big_Fred]

He was the first lot on the first night, very exciting. He has been bought by a vet from Deauville, and so will be registered and compete in France. Everybody we spoke to at the sale reckoned we’d see him at the Elite in 2007 going for a stack of cash, we spoke to the new owners about this…the daughter had already put a claim on him so he’s not going anywhere. I just can’t wait to see him at F’bleau in three years time, I’ll be so proud of him.

Catharina was the result of a crazy phone call to my wife, whilst I was at the Nijhof’s. I rang to ask if she wanted me to bring anything back…you know bag of tulip bulbs, a ball of Edam, some clogs…oh no, just grey mare would be nice. I saw one grey mare…Caty, she was one of Henk Senior private mare band, she wasn’t cheap, but look at the result. Tinks didn’t know I’d bought her, until she came off the the lorry…how far did my stock rise?