Any info on the Nakotas?
Ruarch,
Sorry was a BIT wrong, Chokolate Confetti is 23 years old and 16.3, herer is website:
aurum - some Saddlebreds are too long in the back. So are some Warmbloods, and so are a LOT of Thoroughbreds.
I have seen and can show you pictures of Saddlebreds that do not have an overly long back.
http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/gallery/gal…/infuriating%201.jpg
I can’t find a pic of artisticgold’s stallion, but he too is not very long-backed.
Now, a VERY short-coupled ASB is rare, but I have been told by several top WB breeders (including Popeye K’s breeder, who is local to me) that a longer back is preferable to a very short one, especially for jumping/eventing. 
Home again…thanks for that link! Wow! Very nice horses! That Kiger colt is outstanding for a Colonial Spanish Type. I really like him. The crosses are just lovely!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”> !!! Google quick as bankruptcy laws are changing in October for the worse!
Elaine, I know how dedicated you have been to your breeding and training program and I wish the very best of luck in turning things around.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for the October tip… I’ll get on it right away… 
Now if I can just figure how to go from Colt Champion to winning at FEI in the same day I’d say we were really “turning things around” in our breeding program. 
I can see where this thread could become a can of worms, so, I am not addressing ANY horse in particular, and am making no comment what-so-ever about Tawna’s lovely filly or whether she is the living embodiment of a perfect Sporthorse.
In general, I think we all see our horse through what we call “love eyes.” To me, my horses are perfect, they move perfectly… they have flawless, perfect conformation… they pretty much walk on water. I think this is true of many many breeders. To most of us, our horses are “perfection on four legs.” The rest of the world may fall over laughing at all their faults, but we just don’t see them.
And if pressed about evaluations of perfection, one often finds that the assessment is grounded in some trivial feature like, “It’s perfect, ‘cause it’s 13 hh at 6 months.” The person making the assessment of perfection is - to put it kindly ”"lacking any true understating of the salient aspects of quality conformation.
In dogs they refer to this as “kennel blindness;” in horses I think it’s “barn blindness.” I think breeders are probably the very worst judges of the horses they breed… which is why competition and an objective evaluations by a knowledgeable third parties is so useful.
One useful thing about competition - especially the bigger competitions like Devon - is that our “eye” is challenged by some objective standard (ideally). For example, I can crow about wins at Puppy Matches till the cows come home… I can even win a few points here and there, but in my breed (Dobermans) the real competition is at the National Specialties (with entries of 600-1000 of the best of the best). National Specialties challenge a breeder’s assessments head on. In horses, performance results have a similar function… they are arguably an objective measure of whether our “eye” is truly all we believe.
As far as “trends” go… I can’t say that I would characterize Sporthorse breeding as reflecting a “trend” so much as evolving in the past 40 years towards a clearly defined objective standard of perfection. I would think that the only way for any “trend” to succeed and flourish is for horses to get out there, compete and do well. The public is pretty savvy about finding phenotypes and bloodlines that excel.
I think, Lianne, that we can take CuriosoJorge’s comments with a grain of salt being that she doen’t breed, train, own, or ride at the current time.
I believe, she is in fact, studying to become a vet.
Just wanted to set the record straight.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Cartier:
In general, I think we all see our horse through what we call “love eyes.” To me, my horses are perfect, they move perfectly… they have flawless, perfect conformation… they pretty much walk on water. I think this is true of many many breeders. To most of us, our horses are “perfection on four legs.” The rest of the world may fall over laughing at all their faults, but we just don’t see them.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to disagree, Cartier! I, as well as at least one of my breeder friends, are very critical of our babies. I have only bred one foal so far (I’m just starting, give me time!! lol), and do I love her? Yes. Do I think she’s perfect? No. Do I think she’s exactly what I want produce every time? No. I’d like her back to be shorter and her loin connection a bit stronger. I’d like a teensy bit more substance. As for her movement, it’s far better than her dam’s - but does it take my breath away? No, it doesn’t. But then again neither does the movement of my very “trendy” Westfalen/TB filly.
But I did put her out there against VERY well-bred babies at her first line show, fully expecting her not to place because she was not really what the judges usually look for. Well, she must’ve been doing something right, cuz she placed 4th out of 7 babies.
My WB/TB filly, who everyone has been oohing and aahing over since she was a yearling, is exactly the type the judges look for - and she placed second to last and dead last in two of her classes. Go figure.
I just wanted to point out that some of us who are breeding, shall we say, “unconventional” sporthorses, do NOT necessarily think they are god’s gift and perfection on four legs - but more that they are viable, worthy alternatives that will hopefully earn their place in the sporthorse world. 
I hope that made sense… 
I’d like to make one further comment and this has to do with warmbloods. Is anyone here familiar with the story of Cor de la Bryere? I cannot state ALL the facts in this horses history, but apparently he was either turned down, or marginally approved and slated for gelding. The owner had another more promising stallion taht was looked upon much more favorably by the approval board (or whatever you warnblooders call them folks!) well apparently the more promising hrose wasn’t producing well and the owner had not gotten around to gelding Cor de la Bryere, so he jsut decided to turn his mares to him for a season or two. Well long story short, this horse who supposedly ahd TERRIBLE conformation, was too small and was not a good mvoer was the SINGLE MOST influential jumping sire of the last century! So soemtimes conformation, movement, size etc don’t equate into what that hrose is capable of as an individual or moreso as a sire. Jsut an interesting little sidenote here (I’m in a storytelling mood I think 
)
Trailblazer,
if you dislike my tone then perhaps think about you trying to explain what you want to express in German. Perhaps you have not yet realized it but I am German and I do my best to express me in a polite way yet I do sometimes literal traduction. Sorry if I hurt your ears!
well, pwynn, I certainly DON"T breed willy nilly. I have VERY specific things I am trying to attain, and very specific, and WELL DOCUMENTED bloodlines that I am attempting to utilize to help attain those goals. Obviously I look at each individuals conformation, movement etc as well. Are my mares or even my stallion perfect? Well, no and anyone who claims such is barn blind. IS anyone else doing what I am doing, yes, there are a few breeders, such as the folks using the Wap Spotted bloodlines, and the people on the west coast with Chokolate Confetti both of whom have produced OUTSTANDING horses that have won quite a lot on the line and in breed shows as well as in sport horse endeavor such as eventing. However, theya re also crossing with warmbloods (but the hroses I speak of with such stellar records were NOT warmblood crosses) whcih is not something we want to do as part of our program. Yes, one day I would like to cross my horse on a warmblood, but jsut as an individual “experiemnt” and not as a goal in our program. We are small, but small doesn’t necessarily mean “backyard” or less than good goals or standards we want to attain. In the mix is GOOD MINDED individuals. I do NOT want to breed horses that a limited number of people are capable of riding becuase in my opinion, that leads to FAR more hroses that cannot find homes. And obviously we want our appaloosa coloring becuase I WANT to be recognized for waht I am riding/breeding, and not be “mistaken” for something else. I will “take to task” anyone who says that we haven’t a clear idea of what were are doing, and we came up with our “plan” prior to ever even purchasing our stallion.
Daydream, have you seen any of the Andalusian x Mustang ?? crosses - there was one woman out west that had a 16+ H andalusian stallion she was crossing on larger mustang mares I lost her website but heard a few went on to eventing…
I have seen some really nice mustangs,Yancey ranch brought a Kiger to an Expo we attended last year in FL. He was a buckskin, nice mover, super temperment and strong bone/legs - big sound feet. I may get “in trouble” for this but there may be a place for mustangs in either crossbreeding or creating a different sporthorse with TB blood or Andalusian w/longer legs…
Tawna, I like your “untrendy” breeding philosophy and I think you shouldn’t give a hoot what WB breeders say about it. The filly is GORGEOUS!!!
You take the TOP WB’s in Europe and what do they look like? Chunky Saddlebreds. Their necks come out high and hingey, they have lots of hock action and anymore lots of front end action too. So they are breeding this “type” over there.
I have never bred a horse so I can’t comment on the keeper foal thing. But, I can tell you if I had bred her I would keep her too!
I see this is already getting ugly…
aurum - here’s another example of a horse with “backward” breeding, to use your terminology. If “breeding backwards” by continuing to infuse Saddlebred blood produces horses like this, heck, I’m RUNNING backwards, can you see me? 
http://www.rowestables.com/whats%20New/rhoshow.jpg
sj66 - hope the foaling goes well for you!
alexandra,
I had jsut psoted before you regarding our homozygous appaloosa stallion, that was why I asked thats all
Ruach,
You can go to our VERY OUT OF DATE WEBSITE and see him there, they are somewaht older pics, the first one on the page is as a two year old before we bought him, the second is in June of 2004 shortly after he was shipped to us from Idaho
http://www.freewebs.com/shawnee_acres/ourstallion.htm
oh yes we are in Wilson, NC
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by showjumpers66:
I have an interesting one coming tonight … with my luck it will either be bay with not a hair of white or have freaky markings and blue eyes. The foal will be 3 x Cor de la Bryere and will basically be all mixed up! 5/16 TB, 7/32 Hol, 5/32 QH, 3/32 SF, 3/32 Paint, 1/16 Dutch, 1/32 Trak, 1/32 Arab or 11/32 Blooded Breeds, 13/32 Warmblood, and 1/4 Western Breeds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I personally love seeing all the different breeds competing at dressage shows. In our area, we have a Norwegian Fjord going up the levels and doing quite well. A friend is competing several Haflingers and doing well with them. We also continue to see Arabians, QHs, Morgans, and yes, some Saddlebreds at area shows. Granted, the FEI classes are usually completely dominated by warmbloods, but that is not surprising considering that warmbloods are bred for the sport, while the other breeds were traditionally NOT bred for dressage.
I do agree that many warmbloods in Europe are becoming somewhat “Saddlebred-y” in type. I have even been asked if my own mare is a SB, because of her beautiful head and exceptional elegance (she is a 3/4 Hanoverian, registered as an Oldenburg). But her hind end, her movement, and her self carriage are not in any way Saddlebred-y. And here is the big difference between Saddlebreds and the lighter, elegant warmbloods - SBs tend to have extreme action in the front and back that is very “up and down”, they like to go high headed with hollow backs, they usually don’t have much elasticity in the back, and they tend to have a different type of hindquarter than a warmblood. Although the current trend in warmbloods is for flashy action in front and back, the horse is still expected to MOVE FORWARD and cover a lot of ground, so the action is more “up and out” as one German inspector likes to describe it. Warmbloods are expected to offer this movement with a lifted back, and they also should have a great deal of elasticity in the back, which makes them more comfortable to sit.
An interesting story - a few weeks ago, I went to watch a teen-aged neighbor in a dressage lesson. Her grandfather and parents are long-time Saddlebred breeders, and her grandfather has enjoyed some national success over the years with his horses. He was present at the dressage lesson, and told me that he has gone to quite a few shows with his granddaughter, as he enjoys watching her ride. She is now riding solid Second Level and moving up to Third soon, but she is riding a warmblood that Grandpa bought for her. The reason? “Saddlebreds just aren’t bred for the sport the way warmbloods are. She would be struggling at this level on the typical Saddlebred, and she is serious enough about the sport to warrant a horse that could help her get where she wants to go.” Grandpa went on to tell me that if she ever wanted to come back to the saddle-seat world, the warmblood would be sold, because “he isn’t suited at all for saddle-seat work. Form follows function, you know.”
aurum - she is 3/4 Saddlebred. You see, a big chunk of the sporthorse community firmly believes that Saddlebreds are not, cannot and will never be high-level sporthorses.
