Daydream Believer–
I like the sound of the Mustang/Thoroughbred cross. It will be good to breed some of that good old Spanish blood back into the Thoroughbred.
Probably see horses that are much more constitutionally sound. Added scope, with better collection ability, hopefully.
shawnee_Acres–
I do like the looks of your App very much. Do you have other pics you can email me?
Tawna I lik your filly very much. But I have to admit I leked her more in the standing shots rather than the trooting ones. I know for a fact that it’s impossible to truly picture a horse in a photograph, however in the trot to me she looks more like just leg action without strech through the poll and push from behind. I realise that it’s probably just the photo, I have a 3 year old I just sold and I couldn’t get anyone out to the farm based on a still photo but the first person who actually saw her bought her in minutes and paid full price. Beibg a terribly unphotogenic person myself I understand this phenomenon completely.
Erica
hehehe…we are posting at the same time! I’m not really arguing with you anyway but just wanted to point out my feelings over aurum’s comments. I do think we are probably in agreement! 
Cisco is really pretty and appears to jump quite well.
My breeding focus is to breed for jumpers, eventers, and endurance horses. But my PRIMARY focus is to breed horses that are extremely beautiful, great minds, very sound and versatile.
If I produce what becomes an FEI level horse wonderful. But all of the above is more important.
Um, even if you hadn’t told me their breeding, I liked the traditional one. Much better topline. The “weird” one is camped out behind and looks downhill.
So, now we know who owns TASHR and who’s in vet school (with a practice that may include small animals). You’re all outed!!! 
And you’ll all nice folks with valid points of view. 
For all the good that could come from this discussion… and the chance to highlight what the TASHR registry is about in a positive way, let’s not let this thread go down the wrong road. We’re past that… we’re all capable of taking the high road. And we may learn a bit from each other.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Cartier:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>How many of you are breeding for Olympic World Class sporthorses that will be purchased and ridden by professionals and are actually keeping, training and gearing towards that arena? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Our goal is to breed horses that can compete successfully in FEI competition… In that respect we may be unique for posters on this forum (and posters on this thread), but we’re certainly NOT unique as breeders. Frankly, the breeder and owners of the superb brown competition WB Sporthorses are out “doing,” not here posting. But, it’s fair to say that we are putting our money where our mouth is… which is why I am currently googling bankruptcy laws. 
This is not an easy or cheap goal to acheive. 
No breeder hits the mark every time… hell, if you hit the mark once every few years you’re lucky… and the really great ones come along probably once in a lifetime. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
!!! Google quick as bankruptcy laws are changing in October for the worse!
Elaine, I know how dedicated you have been to your breeding and training program and I wish the very best of luck in turning things around.
There is always that ONE. Somehow, they set themselves apart.
This year I have one of those “special foals”… She is SO exotic and still the sportype I am breeding for. I have not seen anything else like her out there. She went beyond my expectations and is the poster child for the ASB/WB side of my breeding program- an exotic sporthorse unlike any other current “trend”.
She exudes this presence and is so “perfect” to me. I know conformation and movement wise she is pretty darn nice also, but there is that something “more” about her that sets her apart from all the “trendy” foals.
I am SO proud of this filly. I stuck my neck out there and am pleased with the results. I know because of her unique sportype she may not “win” when we take her out. I know though, this is not because she is not nice… she just sticks out and is SO different from the cookie cutter foals of the WB & Sporthorse world today. I know a nice foal is a nice foal… but, I am curious as to what kind of reception she will be given. There is much prejudice to overcome with this filly, as was/is for her sire.
Please don’t flame me for this… not saying the cookie cutter foals are not nice to begin with, but if you have a very correct foal, with a very correct foundation, and wonderful movement that is quite different from everything else… How will it fair against the “clones” of the breeding world?? I’m not sure… I guess I’ll find out at Devon!! LOL
So- This is my “keeper” foal… you know, the one everyone comes to the farm 
‘s over and you respond “Not for sale”. She is the next generation for the ASB/WB side of my breeding program (I do have a straight WB breeding side as well). I am proud of her, in every differing yet correct sportype quality she encompasses.
Anyone else out there have one of these? A foal unlike any other to keep for the next generation? Something you believe in so strongly to stick your neck out there with?? I’m talking completely NEW breeding approaches… not the current trends (colored Wb’s, or Tb’s- new trends, but not unique) I’m talking about something completely unique… Or am I the only one??
I’m just curious to see whom else is out there with something “different”. Don’t be shy about sharing. I know most people on this board do the norm… but I don’t think they will flame us for sharing our “different” foals. It’s all about sharing, and learning. Perhaps something one of us unique breeders produces will become the next “trend” to combat the Euro WB breeding Machine that is ahead of the “game” currently. I’m not talking WB’s here… I’m specifying Sporthorses. Thoughts…??? Can we discuss such a topic here with open minds and no condesending undertones?? Just open conversation and possibly some willing to share there unique breeding approaches.
To end, I thought I would share some new photos of my special filly that started me thinking on this topic.
Maraposa
Maraposa conf 2
NOTE: Not meant to start wars with this topic. It is meant to learn about others’ “new” ideas on differing breeding approaches and philosophies.
Doesn’t the NAWPN still allow Saddlebreds in one part of their registry? Of course, I think it is for the carriage type, but obviously the value of ASBs has been recognized by a WB registry.
I disagree with one of the posters that state that the ASB cannot get their hocks under them or have enough flexibility in the hindend. I think that this is one of their STRENGTHS in a good individual. I think the possible weakness over the loin and the longish back are the breed’s main shortfalls. I think they have great flexibility and expression and atheleticism.
In fact, years ago many of the open jumper champs in Virginia were either purebred or partbred ASBs.
I have ridden a few ASBs in my day although I normally ride hunters. I was very impressed by their temperament and willingness and strength.
I will likey be told I am wrong or uneducated, but I have found this topic interesting. Also, listening to many posters lets me know WHICH professional breeders I will NEVER do business with!
Another interesting point on this thread. It amazes me when breeders have barn blindness! I am most critical of my own horses. In fact, I have lost many sales by being openly critical of my horses’ weaknesses. Buyers expect for sellers to say their horses are perfect. After describing my horse’s fault to potential buyers or friends, I have actually been told that I am way too critical of my own horses.
When I have asked stallion owners about their stallions strengths and faults, they often tell me that their stallion is perfect! Again, I know which stallion NOT to use. I want honest critiques. How else can I choose the right stallion for my also NOT perfect mare? American breeders are way too emotionally involved in my opinion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by aurum:
But what is for sure, is the fact that as long as Americans do not understand the ongoing rules of breeding real Warmbloods and think that crossing “y” to “x” breed makes a Warmblood to be good enough for American competition riders, that long do WE in Europe have the market alone to fulfill their dreams.
I do not mean to be rude with this, it is just a “wake up” call before the train has left the train station… </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think I understand what you are saying here and correct me if I’m wrong. You are saying that Americans do not understand how to breed REAL warmbloods? 
That’s going to make you a popular person on this board with all the folks breeding warmbloods!
I would be truly offended if I were breeding warmbloods with that statement and that brings home why I won’t breed them and play second string to Europeans who think they know everything there is to know on how to breed a modern sporthorse. I would not be able to stand watching my lovely foals get passed over by buyers flocking to Europe to buy horses no nicer than mine.
I’m hoping that you are just getting screwed up in your translation and that’s not what you really mean. 
The point of this thread is not that we are trying to make our American breeds into warmblood clones but rather we are trying to create a unique type of American sporthorse that can compete against the warmbloods and win. Not everyone wants what you have Aurum…some of us march to the beat of a different drummer and all we ask is that people respect that.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Daydream Believer:
Alright…I am going to stop for a cup of tea and attempt to do what they are paying me to be here for.
I was going to but I am not going to reply to Sonesta’s last post directly but will say that I think folks need to realize that alternative breeds are going to be gaining in popularity and competing for those folks who can’t afford an expensive WB or who just don’t want one. Just because we are breeding some other breed by choice with realistic expectations of our markets does not mean our animals are low quality. To look down upon us who chose this path and call us puppy mill or backyard breeders is elitist and snobby. 
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
QFT
Wow…how cool! I did not know they came in dun too! I guess it makes sense if they are of spanish descent as that was a common color in the barbs, jennets and sorraia horses brought to America and they very likely have some of that blood in them.
Ok, maybe I’m missing something here - Tawna, your filly is lovely (and love the coloring!), but I’m not seeing this different “type” thing. Yes, she’s an unconventional cross, breed-wise. However, considering a lot of great horse people could care LESS what the breeding of a horse is, as long as it has the ability and aptitude for sport (whatever sport you’re breeding for), I don’t necessarily get what you’re talking about as far as her “type” being different - she looks like a lot of other nice WB cross foals I’ve seen.
Her BREEDING is unique, but as far as “type” goes - well, she looks like a lot of other nice foals I’ve seen from more “conventional” lines, which I assume is the point. Other than her color, which is, as some pointed it, hip these days, what exactly makes her NOT like those “cookie cutter” foals, other than who her parents were? For instance, when I look at Pwynn’s ponies, I don’t go “Gee, what unique crosses …” I go, “Gee, what nice ponies.” I’ve met plenty of people trying out unconventional crosses, for one reason or another, with the end-goal of creating a sporthorse or pony that measures up to the more mainstream competition. You’re not trying to create something different, you’re trying to create a sporthorse using different breeds than the norm, right?
Not trying to argue here - I just really don’t see what difference it makes WHAT percentage of her is an “unconventional” sporthorse breed, as long as she’s a good sporthorse when she grows up.
danksbreeder, those photos are from May '05, when she wasn’t even a month old and starting to learn about her legs (added Just checked computer, and she was about 2 weeks old of those photos, take a 1 or 2 away…gosh technology is great sometimes). While I was taking photos of her the same day of the stand shots, she was a-m-a-z-i-n-g (sadly could not get photos of her trotting…momma tends to be in the freakin way between the camera and Mara 
). I truely wish I could have gotten those few seconds of her trotting, but am not that talented of a photographer, just yet
Sorry Tawna, I have to much time on my hands and am not tired and needed something to do 
DB, we usually agree, but here we disagree, I fear. I DO understand what you are saying. Heck, breeding often blisteringly hot temperaments into ponies–like I do–isn’t exactly swimming downstream…but–and you’ve heard me write this before, I’m sure–breeding for “average” makes little sense either, at least in some minds.
There is already an overabundance of “average” horses out there, many of which end up being unwanted and abused. Many–myself included–believe that for the sake of the horse, it behooves (er, spelling?) a breeder to set the bar high. To use a term I hate, but is appropriate in this context: why would someone breed–and KEEP breeding–one backyard horse to another? Similarly, why breed IN flaws? Once, twice for pets or personal mounts (who may end up topping everyone with a great big “So THERE!”), but in a “program”? Why?
Please note that I am talking about breeders and crossbreeding, not mare owners breeding to others’ stallions or the owners of purebred stallions whose blood, as well as other traits, may have real value/contributions to make.
Shawnee, I haven’t read all of the posts after your response to mine and can’t now because I have to make an appointment, but I just wanted to post quickly to let you know that I never address anyone’s breeding program directly here. Not the “program” itself (or animals in it). Yes, I have a tendency to addres the way you refer to your program–because I think one should take care in how you do so given the problems that DO exist in our industry.
That said, let me also clarify that I have never implied that the Olympics were the be all and end all of anything. What I’m trying to say–and I think more would agree than disagree–that a responsible breeder breeds to produce the best in whatever discipline or endeavor his or her breed/type is intended for…not just willy nilly here’s another horse.
I HAVE a specific friend out in WV who just breeds willy nilly–and I know too many who DO just breed willy nilly–and THOSE are indeed the ones I’m criticizing heavily. If you cannot identify whatever the standard is that is the ideal in a specific area of breeding horses, whether its for therapy, trail, eventing, cow work, jumping, trotting races, beauty–whatever establishes breeder goals in producing horses–if you can’t describe what that is, you’re doing it willy nilly and that is shameful, IMO.
“You” does not mean you personally, though, Shawnee. It means “you” in general.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
And, really, DB, who said ANYTHING at any time about “quality”? I used the term average–and was not necessarily referring to any particular person’s program. What does average mean? It means much like the rest. Now, “below average” THAT is inferior. Average means it doesn’t offer anything beyond what it typically offered. Moreover, DB, I made a point to state that I was NOT including purebreds whose blood, as WELL AS OTHER TRAITS, also had value/contributions to make. I thought by including that I was clarifying to you that I wasn’t referring to your program.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry if I took that the wrong way but I am feeling a little defensive with some of the comments made in this discussion.
I still think the majority of folks are taking what I meant about targeting the amateur market totally wrong and out of context. What I have are realistic goals on who is going to probably buy my foals and young stock and those people are most likely amateurs…not olympic contenders. Does that mean I am breeding low quality foals compared to that breeder who is targeting the olympic pros? NO…just different. I think my little horses are more than capable of FEI level dressage competition but find it unlikely that Anky or Robert will be looking for a 14:2 hand colonial spanish horse for their next prospect. For that matter, how many breeders here have produced a horse that ended up at the olmpics or even at the FEI levels?
Like any other reputable breeder, I am breeding to improve each generation and breed the best that I can from the best breeding stock I could find and I think this year’s foal crop did just that. I have three foals that exceeded their parents in quality and that should make lovely riding horses. All three are lovely movers, well built with legs/bone/feet many breeders would kill for, and seem to have nice trainable temperments and of course, time will tell on that score. One is sold and leaving next week and the other two I will keep and train and use to promote my stallion and my program and eventually use as broodmares. I will price them realistically knowing who my market is so that I can be competitive and will try to get them into homes where they will be trained and amount to something.
Tawna, I don’t think you should close the topic. Hopefully now we can get back on track with your original intent.
aurum–
Tennessee Walking horses are naturally gaited besides walk/trot/canter. I don’t believe they would work for traditional sport disciplines. They do have fantastic substance, though, and I’ve seen plenty with short backs.
American Saddlebreds are NOT naturally “gaited”; they are trained that way.
I agree with you that many ASB’s are too long in the back even though the standard is supposed to be a med.short back. But I have been able to find many that are not too long in the back.
The breed did not originally have a looonnng back and extreme vertical neck set. This was the breeding that became fashionable. TASHR was started to preserve the sporthorse type ASB as the sporthorse type lines have been disappearing because they are not fashionable in the gaited saddlehorse world.
As for a longer back, though, I have seen many, many warmbloods that I think are longer backed.
And sometimes, both ASB’s and warmbloods like the Westphalian and Gelderlander can be flatter crouped which gives the impression of a longer back.
Here are some pics of my little herd…sorry if I posted earlier; can’t remember.
http://community.webshots.com/myphotos?action=viewAllPhotos&albumID=230017058
That’s interesting Wynn. I never thought about a Friesan. I did know that one theory was that the sire was “spanish.” I also knew there was another theory but did not remember what it was…the Dutch stallion…very cool.
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