dumb breeding questions from a newbie

[ElementFarm]

I have a lovely 2yo AKC bitch. She has CH lines but has not been shown due to our lack of time (we show horses, lol) and experience. We are interested in breeding her in the next year or so, but I’m a novice in the dog world (and apparently it works differently with horses) so I’m not sure how to go about matchmaking.

what is the protocol for finding a baby’s daddy? Do I just reach out to breeders in the region and ask if they stand to outside bitches?
Does my girl go stay with them at their house for a week or two until they mate?
How do I determine when my girl is “ready”? Does a vet ultrasound her to determine where she is in her cycle and we go from there?

The intent would be to breed family-friendly, and competition quality if the new owners are interested in that, puppies in a breed that’s not very common, but is in demand by everyone who meets ours. I would require a stud that would result in AKC-eligible puppies.

I am confident in our ability to raise puppies in a safe environment and provide all required medical attention during pregnancy and after whelping. We have a perfect environment (horse farm, large fenced yard, etc) and will screen prospective buyers. I just don’t understand how the logistics work.

Thanks for your time.

[Ibex]

My understanding is that most reputable breeders won’t send their dog to an unproven bitch with whom they have no connections.

Maybe contact the breeder of your girl for their input? They might be able to make recommendations and possibly some connections.

[Where_sMyWhite]

I would recommend working with a knowledgable breeder to help you get started on the right path to make sure your bitch is quality (just a Ch in her name doesn’t necessarily, IMO, make quality) and to pick an appropriate mate for her.

IMO, breeding dogs isn’t like breeding horses

[Kwill]

Seems to me going to some dog shows and talking to people might be of help. Of course, your breed’s websites would also give you contacts with people breeding.

I have no idea how it’s done with dogs, either, but i would start by making some connections. You vet might be able to help, too, with some of the technical questions.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Ibex;8607810]
My understanding is that most reputable breeders won’t send their dog to an unproven bitch with whom they have no connections.

Maybe contact the breeder of your girl for their input? They might be able to make recommendations and possibly some connections.[/QUOTE]

When you say “unproven” do you mean unproven as a brood bitch? Or a bitch without titles? Because the 1st is not a big deal, but the 2nd is for many people.

To the OP: As a bitch owner, you will probably be able to find someone that is willing to take a stud fee and breed to your bitch, but your choices will be limited. I was asked whether I would breed my dog to an untitled bitch from a breeder I know, and my answer was “no way!” I have no desire to breed my titled dog to a bitch with no titles. It puts my dog’s name out in the world with a weaker pedigree than he started with; so there is nothing in it for me – I am only interested in breeding him to bitches that would produce a pedigree that is even better than his.

So my real advice would be to get a title (of some sort, even if it’s not conformation) on your bitch if you want to attract dogs of any caliber. If you are looking to breed a performance litter; performance titles are just fine. You would need to get health clearances before most people would EVER consider it – whether that is hip xrays; eye evaluations, etc. for your breed. You can go to www.offa.org to check what is recommended.

I would suggest finding a repro vet (or a vet that will help you) so you can ask all the nitty gritty questions about pre-breeding evaluations and progesterone testing for the right date.

As to the actual “how” it works - it depends. My dog’s breeder/friend kept the bitch I bred my dog to so that I didn’t have to have her here - she lives about 20 minutes away from me. That is not something easy to manage unless you have kennels. The bitch lived about 3 hours away, so pretty close, but not close enough for the breeder of the litter to go back and forth 3x in one week. In general the bitch is brought to the stud, but you might find AI to be more convenient, or useful if you run into logistical problems; that’s where the right repro vet will be invaluable.

Obviously, as evident from my post - breeder friends are useful. I would say a good percentage of people breeding a litter have had (or always have) other breeder friends helping along the way.

[jetsmom]

There are a bunch of akc dogs with champions in their background that are not breeding quality. Get some people with titled dogs to fairly evaluate your dog. Then, if they feel she meets the breed standards, get a full vet repro check, as well as hipp-Penn tests, genetic tests for your breeds common defects/diseases, and repro tests. If you do the tests that you should do if you aren’t going to become another irresponsible backyard breeder, it will cost you around 2000.00.
You probably need to get your dog titled on something. Look at horse racing as an example. You can breed the best to the best and still end up with an Avg horse. Just because your dog has champions in its pedigree doesn’t mean it is one who should be bred to improve the breed.
Most good breeders will also have buyers for the dogs before they are even bred or on the ground.
Why do you feel the need to breed an unproven dog that you didn’t have the time to prove itself? There are too many family friendly purebred dogs in this country now. No need to intentionally breed more. Breeders that breed to improve the breed always end up with some puppies that are not show quality. Those are the ones that become pets, and that reputable breeders sell on a spay/neuter contract. Reputable breeders will also guarantee that they will always take back one of the dogs they produced if it ever needs a home. Are you prepared to do that?
Some breeds need c sections to give birth. Are you prepared to pay for that? What about if your dog rejects the puppies or dies during labor…do you have time to provide round the clock feedings?
In case you can’t tell, I am against backyard breeding, which is basically what you are suggesting by wanting to breed an unproven dog to produce family friendly pets. If you like puppies of your breed, maybe contact a breed rescue of your breed and offer to foster dogs and puppies for them. You’d get your puppy fix yet not be adding to the over population of pet quality dogs.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;8607933]
Then, if they feel she meets the breed standards, get a full vet repro check, as well as hipp-Penn tests, genetic tests for your breeds common defects/diseases, and repro tests. If you do the tests that you should do if you aren’t going to become another irresponsible backyard breeder, it will cost you around 2000.00. [/QUOTE]

I’m all for encouraging responsible breeding, but that quote is not appropriate for many breeds. It depends entirely on what breed you have, and what conditions are common.

For example, OFA recommends hip evaluation (OFA or PennHIP) and eye evaluation for my breed, and recommends one of several other evaluations (elbows OR patellas OR cardiac OR thyroid).

Prior to breeding, I had my stud dog’s hips evaluated (OFA), eye evaluation, elbows (OFA) and patellas. That probably only cost about $500-$600 max. Pre-breeding workup (brucellosis, semen analysis, physical exam including cardiac evaluation - but not by a boarded cardiologist) was another $175. So easily less than $1K and I did more than the minimum.)

However, some breeds require completely different tests and can be quite expensive.

To the OP: It’s really important to test for what is known in your breed and probably worthwhile to look through the OFA database for your dog’s ancestors. Even if your bitch had OFA “Excellent” hips, I would want to see a pattern of clear hip evaluations before I would breed to her - one dog could be the anomaly, not the norm. In my breed, because dysplasia is one of the most common issues, I would want to see at least 3 generations of hip evaluations in the breeding stock or I’d probably pass. Not everyone would, but again - these are the factors that will limit your choices in a stud dog.

[Brookes]

Do you have buyers for these puppies? Responsible breeders normally have their pups sold ahead of time. I just got a new pup a month ago, I waited for 18 months on this breeders list to get this puppy. I paid a deposit and signed a contract promising to show this pup. The breeder knows me very well and that is why I was allowed to get one of her pups. How are you planning on advertising this litter? What age are you going to let them go to a new home? You know you should handle the first two sets of shots too, more $$.

I don’t know of any breeders of AKC champion dogs that would breed to an untitled bitch. As someone mentioned you want your dog to be matched with a bitch that brings something to the table for your breeding program. You want pups that will be shown and finished by the new puppy owners.

I had a friend who tried this with an untitled doberman bitch, after about 25 phone calls all turning her down she finally gave up and purchased a pup from a breeder. Her bitch was lovely and I’m sure would have done quite well in the ring but she never bothered to show her.

The pup I just got came from a litter that the mama rejected after about 1 week of nursing. She just plain said forget about it. Those 7 pups had to be hand fed round the clock. This was her second litter and this time she just wasn’t into it.

Depending on the breed you can run into some serious whelping issues. Some breeds are tough to whelp. You may want to think twice about taking this on.

[Hannahsmom]

I’m with those who say check back with the breeder of YOUR bitch. Did you have a contract around future breedings? If not finding a breed mentor is your best bet. They can evaluate your dog, make suggestions about possible stud dogs and help you with any issues in your breed. You may find some of these possible puppy buyers disappear when the puppies are ready to place. You will also find that there are many rescues and foster homes trying to place lovely pets. the dog breeding world is very different than horses as someone already said. What breed is your bitch?

[ElementFarm]

Thanks for the inputs all.

I have sent a note to the breeder of my bitch. She has a long history of breeding some good conformation dogs on the breed, however is now pretty much retired. She’s also in a different part of the country, so isn’t as familiar with the local dogs.

My bitch had been evaluated by two professionals (one a breeder of the same breed) and one a good handler and both have stated she’d be very competitive. I just don’t have the time/energy to invest in getting her titles.

Of course I would do OFA hip xrays and any other tests recommended within the breed, but luckily it’s a healthy breed without too many particular issues.

So, is there anything wrong with breeding for high-quality pets? Of course, I think my girl is lovely and would be successful in the show ring, but it’s not what I’m interested in. Many other owners feel the same way, but still want to have the breed, with all the wonderful quirks and attributes.
There are virtually no dogs of this breeds available from Rescues. I’ve been trying for 2-3 years to get one from a rescue – but the ones available are few-and-far-between and get adopted quickly, or won’t be adopted out of the state/region.

I could just buy another puppy for myself, and that is still a good possibility. I don’t want to be the “bad” kind of back yard breeder. However I feel that there are lots of good families looking for exactly my bitch, and there aren’t very many AKC-registered ones available in this area. As others have said, good breeders often have a year-long waiting list, and that has been the case in my experience within this breed. There’s demand for family dogs of this breed and the fact that so few of them are found in rescue organizations, in my mind, indicates that the people purchasing them are good dog owners who commit long-term and provide good care and family environment for life. Of course I would be willing to take back any puppy/adult if a new owner couldn’t keep it.

thanks again for all the feedback, both positive and negative. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

[Nootka]

Can you tell us breed?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=ElementFarm;8608462]
So, is there anything wrong with breeding for high-quality pets? Of course, I think my girl is lovely and would be successful in the show ring, but it’s not what I’m interested in. Many other owners feel the same way, but still want to have the breed, with all the wonderful quirks and attributes. [/QUOTE]

Well, in my opinion, no there is nothing wrong with breeding for high-quality pets. Many ‘show’ puppies go to pet-only homes also.

But, the onus will be on you to demonstrate that you are not a backyard/puppy mill/in it for the money kind of breeder - not only is it a good thing, but it will change the type of puppy buyers you will attract.

I would ask for assistance from your breeder (or another trusted breeder) to help you research pedigrees for temperament and health; and not choose a stud based on location or convenience. Good breeders of all kinds choose pedigrees very carefully to bring forward the most desirable traits. What traits are you looking to carry forward? If you can’t name them (yet) you need to think hard about that first, and then look for pedigrees that will meet/improve those goals.

I would insist on at least the same clearances for the stud as you would for your bitch. I would talk to respected breeders about contracts/advertising/etc. to attract the right kind of buyers and what you should be providing (e.g. health guarantees, etc.)

In my opinion, well-bred pets is a market that should be tapped - but I don’t think that should mean the dogs have no titles – maybe not a conformation title, but why not a CGC and/or Beginner Novice obedience title? If a herding breed, maybe a Beginner Rally title; if a hunting breed a Junior Hunter.

It gives people more to go on with regard to the temperament of the parents. No titles might mean “we don’t have time” or it could mean “we don’t care” or “these dogs are dumb as a box of rocks.”

I would try to avoid having anyone question your breeding like that. Your name will be attached to those puppies for generations…so you will want to make sure you don’t regret that.

[Anne]

@ElementFarm;8608462

My bitch had been evaluated by two professionals (one a breeder of the same breed) and one a good handler and both have stated she’d be very competitive. I just don’t have the time/energy to invest in getting her titles.

You don’t have the time/energy to invest in her career, but you have the time/energy to breed her? This is a red flag to me, and would be a red flag to a stud dog owner.

[ElisLove]

[QUOTE=Anne;8608641]
You don’t have the time/energy to invest in her career, but you have the time/energy to breed her? This is a red flag to me, and would be a red flag to a stud dog owner.[/QUOTE]

I agree, Heck just hand the dog over to a pro handler for a few weekends. It doesn’t take a nice dog that long to complete a championship. Most are finished before a year old and they can only show for it from 6 months of age. So in half a year the dog has it’s title.

[dkcbr]

[QUOTE=ElementFarm;8607779]
I have a lovely 2yo AKC bitch. She has CH lines but has not been shown due to our lack of time (we show horses, lol) and experience. We are interested in breeding her in the next year or so, but I’m a novice in the dog world (and apparently it works differently with horses) so I’m not sure how to go about matchmaking.

what is the protocol for finding a baby’s daddy? Do I just reach out to breeders in the region and ask if they stand to outside bitches?
Does my girl go stay with them at their house for a week or two until they mate?
How do I determine when my girl is “ready”? Does a vet ultrasound her to determine where she is in her cycle and we go from there?

The intent would be to breed family-friendly, and competition quality if the new owners are interested in that, puppies in a breed that’s not very common, but is in demand by everyone who meets ours. I would require a stud that would result in AKC-eligible puppies.

I am confident in our ability to raise puppies in a safe environment and provide all required medical attention during pregnancy and after whelping. We have a perfect environment (horse farm, large fenced yard, etc) and will screen prospective buyers. I just don’t understand how the logistics work.

Thanks for your time.[/QUOTE]

Setting aside the ever-present ethical dilemma of “does the world really need more dogs bred?”…

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, if you have not been interested enough and found the time to do any of the desirable networking with other dog folks and the titling (preferably at both ends of the dog’s name), you don’t have the time to devote to the whole project of breeding, raising a solid litter, and matching the puppies up with their lifetime homes. If you can free up some time for this, it would be a big help. You would be surprised at how valuable it is to have other people in your breed on board with your plans, both to help teach and guide you, and also to provide networking and referrals. And it can be a heavy lift to try to sell puppies to discerning buyers from a bitch with no titles.

The most responsible breeders devote inordinate amounts of time to networking with others in their breeds, going to shows to watch and evaluate dogs that may be of interest, researching bloodlines, finding a great match, etc.

And then raising the puppies – my goodness, there’s so much involved with that I can’t even begin to outline it here except to say that it’s about eight weeks of intensive interaction and stimulation and exposure to different things both in the whelping environment and outside of it. And several vet visits, and the puppy temperament and aptitude testing, and and and…really it’s hugely labor intensive to do it right and NOT like a casual backyard breeder.

And then yes the marketing and screening and visitations and matching the puppies with new owners, and providing support and guidance to your puppy people if needed. Are you prepared to devote MUCH more time in the future to dog stuff, at least temporarily, than you have up 'til now?

I know I’m not giving you the helpful information you seek, other than suggesting that you get out to the dog world and network first, before you make any solid plans to breed. I just don’t think you are going to get the best quality matches for your bitch based on the little effort you have expended so far in Dog World. If you really think your bitch is worthy of reproducing, get her out there and put some conformation and performance titles on her before you pursue a breeding. It will be so much easier to find quality studs available to her, and then find knowledgeable, responsible owners for the puppies if she has actual proof of what she can do. Hopefully she will pass her good qualities on to the puppies, but of course that’s not a given. When you look at her pedigree, are there lots of higher level titles there? (Please know that “champion lines” aren’t that meaningful, and truthfully in a rare breed, a Ch. is not necessarily an indication of a great dog.)

I’m trying not to sound judgmental because I really do understand the vague desire to produce another example of a dog you love. BTDT but didn’t attempt to breed because the negatives IMHO far outweigh the positives in the majority of cases, plus I knew I wasn’t up to the task. And I am sure others will post that you can be a lot more casual about the breeding than I think is optimal. But - just think very, very, very carefully about whether you find value in casually breeding a litter vs. taking the time to be sure you produce the best possible puppies for the best possible homes.

[Sswor]

Another thing to keep in mind, if her breed is as rare as she’s suggesting, it may require a great deal of travel to title her dog–just to find enough other dogs of that breed to show against.

To the OP: you’re attempting to enter a very elite world through the back door, in a sense. Be prepared for others to bristle at your attempts to get a foot in.

Also curious what breed is the bitch? Why such a demand for purebreds of this breed as pets? Just being nosy.

[shadedingray]

Also curious on the breed here.

While I respect that you are trying to do things the correct way, I worry that you might be anticipating an ‘easy sell’ for this litter, but it might not actually turn out that way. Do you have others that you KNOW would be willing to purchase a puppy from you or have others only expressed some interest? I know a million people that stop others on the street asking about a specific breed that may seem interested, but wouldn’t actually go and purchase the dog themselves. They just like the idea of it.

I’m also against breeding dogs without titles or something to prove their worth to the breed. Yes, your bitch was spoken of highly by a couple of qualified individuals, but what does she offer to this breed? I personally would not want to buy a dog from parents that are not proven in some way, shape, or form.

[ElementFarm]

I really appreciate the feedback.
It sounds like it might be worth talking to a handler about taking her to a dog show or 10 to get her out there and some recognition. Thank you all for your candid opinions.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=ElementFarm;8608889]
I really appreciate the feedback.
It sounds like it might be worth talking to a handler about taking her to a dog show or 10 to get her out there and some recognition. Thank you all for your candid opinions.[/QUOTE]

I would talk to a handler that is known for your breed, if possible. I am not in your area but might be able to help if you want to send me a PM.

Many handlers will be happy to take your money, even if they think your dog has no chance of winning. So for an evaluation you want to have a good honest conversation about conformation, the competition in your area, and the potential length of time it might take (no guarantees, of course, but a good handler should be able to say “yeah, I don’t think it should be hard” or “well…if we look for the right judges, in the right areas…maybe.”) Those two options will make a big difference on your wallet, and the time your dog is away from home.

Still, breeder help will be your best bet to advise you. You might find that even with a conformation title, you’ll struggle to find a stud – or the opposite…that conformation isn’t as sought after (for your breed) as much as other titles (e.g. hunting). It really depends on the breed, your area, the quality, etc. I have hunting friends that have huge field titles on their dogs and no conformation titles. A conformation title would not add anything for the buyers that are looking at their breeding programs…but it would cost them a lot of money. So they don’t get them.

I also know a few people that have finished champions that are unlikely to ever be used for breeding (unless by the owner) because they are just not that good. And there are many other, better choices in my area. But - your area might be entirely different.

It would be worthwhile to figure out who is breeding to whom in your area, what their titles are, what their prices are, etc. etc. to find out how to go forward.

[wireweiners]

I find it interesting and somewhat puzzling that she won’t name the breed. We have several people on here that are active in dog shows. If she told us what breed, someone on here might be able to help.