dumb breeding questions from a newbie

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Romany;8613123]
Not to derail, but you’re a bit wrong there; one CAN get a dog that meets breed standards from any of the many breed-specific rescue groups. Just in case you’re looking and stumped in your search![/QUOTE]

This really, really depends upon the breed. I assist with rescue through my regional breed club. We have many more homes waiting than we have dogs coming in to rescue (a good thing overall). Same for my husband’s breed. And very, very few of the dogs which come in to corgi rescue are good examples of the breed. The folks breeding the good examples of the breed take back their own before rescue ever gets involved. Our rescue group most frequently gets pet store dogs.

[mommy_peanut]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;8613328]
This really, really depends upon the breed. I assist with rescue through my regional breed club. We have many more homes waiting than we have dogs coming in to rescue (a good thing overall). Same for my husband’s breed. And very, very few of the dogs which come in to corgi rescue are good examples of the breed. The folks breeding the good examples of the breed take back their own before rescue ever gets involved. Our rescue group most frequently gets pet store dogs.[/QUOTE]

This!
That’s where I’m coming from. Any dog(purebred or not) coming from a rescue will not have the background history of a proven & health tested pedigree that a dog from a reputable breeder will.

Not always a bad thing, depending on the breed. However with my breed I’d never feel comfortable getting a dog with an unknown background.

[S1969]

^^ I think the idea of a rescue dog “meeting the breed standard” really depends a lot on what you’re looking for.

I personally don’t want a “pet quality” dog of my breed - but it is likely that most of the general public would not be able to tell my show quality dog apart from a pet quality dog. For many people, if it looks like the breed, and acts like the breed, it’s all they need. And in my you can definitely find dogs like that through breed rescue. I’m sure some of them are fabulous dogs, too.

I have 4 well bred specimens of my breed now - and there is a huge variety of their “meeting the breed standard”…in fact, one of mine is 3" over the standard! (Which is pretty huge for a 20.5" max!)

But, they all have known backgrounds and good breeders - which is important to me.

[IdahoRider]

Any dog(purebred or not) coming from a rescue will not have the background history of a proven & health tested pedigree that a dog from a reputable breeder will.

I don’t agree that any dog coming from a rescue will lack the background history of a dog bred by a reputable breeder. I have been involved in breed specific rescue for years and I have had a few fosters that were incredibly well breed, including a nationally winning bitch that had been imported as a puppy and owned and competed by an owner who was very active and well-known in schutzund. This woman died of cancer and her dog was sold, ended up being spayed due to pyometra. This dog was everything the breed should be, and could be, but ended up homeless when the housing crisis hit California and her owner’s home was foreclosed on. She was now an older dog, and had no “value”, but that didn’t take away from how well trained she was or how well bred. And she ended up in rescue…along with her import papers, her registration and her many, many score books.

For a couple of years there was a breeder local to me who was breeding some really nice working line dogs of “my breed”. These were litters from titled parents, from titled lines. These were not randomly bred puppies. But the breeder was not picky where they went. He sold puppies to homes that were not experienced with dog ownership in general (first time owners of any breed), let alone experienced with a high drive puppy of a breed that can be difficult to raise. Two of his older puppies ended up in the local shelter over a period of time. The owners could not handle them and they were too embarrassed to go back to the breeder and admit that they were in over their heads. The breeder was kind of a jackass and both puppies ended up in rescue. They were well bred, met breed standards and came with every piece of documentation they had been sold with.

I do think that many/most of the purebred dogs that end up in rescue or shelters are randomly bred and generally don’t meet breed standards (oversized, poor coat/color, whatever). But you can find really nicely bred dogs, too. They come in with a documented history (papers and related health testing, show history, breeder information,) every bit as complete as the day they left the breeder’s place as a puppy.
Sheilah

[Ready_To_Riot]

If you are not breeding to make the breed better, do not breed.

Your dog needs to be up to breed standards. Take her to shows. Have someone take her to shows. She needs to be evaluated. Temperament needs to be evaluated. Trainability. I don’t care if it’s a pet or not, if you’re breeding you need to contribute good things to the breed. Your dog may be subpar. Just because you love her doesn’t mean she is a good standard for the breed.

This is how back yard breeding begins. You breed your dog alone, being a novice, with an unproven dog. You sell puppies to “pet homes” because they aren’t show quality. Someone who got the dog as a pet decides to breed despite the clause that says they can’t, but since it’s their dog and you can actually make them spay or neuter, dog is bred and pups are unregisterable. They can sell the dogs as full blooded with a CKC register (I believe that’s what it was. I’m not 100% up on dog registrations. Just things I’ve learned from rescue) and the deminishment of the breed begins. GSDs are a prime example.

Don’t breed your dog. You don’t have the time or knowledge to do so

[Hannahsmom]

Seriously folks. Do you really think old time breeders are judging at most of the AKC shows? Nooooooo. Many new judges are ex-handlers. Only at specialties do clubs hire those who were or are relevant in the breed. Most kennel clubs are hiring the folks who can judge the most breeds for the least amount of money. If I had a bitch I wanted to breed I would seek out a long time serious breeder of that breed for an assessment.

[french_fry]

IMO, there is a place in the world for top quality, proven dogs to better the breed through their progeny (even if I don’t personally agree that the direction many breeds are going in is “better” -_-)

I think about 10% of the population actually NEEDS a dog of such specific type and caliber that they can’t consider anything but a purebred of a certain breed, but if they want the dog of that specific breed better to get one from a top breeder.

I see literally no reason to breed for pet-quality purebred dogs. If you want a dog of a certain breed type, why not get healthy and well-conformed representative of that breed that passes all benchmarks the breed club and larger organizations have come up with. Why breed lesser dogs than that?

If you don’t need a specific breed or type, please save one of the literally millions of dogs that are needlessly euthanized every year because city dwellers who live in 500 square foot apartments absolutely MUST have a purebred australian shepherd (or whatever the reason for getting a totally unsuitable purebred dog is…)

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=S1969;8613555]
^^ I think the idea of a rescue dog “meeting the breed standard” really depends a lot on what you’re looking for.

I personally don’t want a “pet quality” dog of my breed - but it is likely that most of the general public would not be able to tell my show quality dog apart from a pet quality dog. For many people, if it looks like the breed, and acts like the breed, it’s all they need. And in my you can definitely find dogs like that through breed rescue. I’m sure some of them are fabulous dogs, too.

I have 4 well bred specimens of my breed now - and there is a huge variety of their “meeting the breed standard”…in fact, one of mine is 3" over the standard! (Which is pretty huge for a 20.5" max!)

But, they all have known backgrounds and good breeders - which is important to me.[/QUOTE]

This is interesting - I always thought that 3" over the breed standard height would take a dog out of the “show quality” bucket and put it in the “pet quality” bucket. So this dog could be competitive at shows and could be considered as a breeding dog?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8614409]
This is interesting - I always thought that 3" over the breed standard height would take a dog out of the “show quality” bucket and put it in the “pet quality” bucket. So this dog could be competitive at shows and could be considered as a breeding dog?[/QUOTE]

LOL - no he is definitely only “pet quality.”

But that was not my intention - I wasn’t seeking a “pet quality” dog - I was seeking a dog I could show who would also be my pet. And he just turned out to be a freak of nature. Aside from his height - he is a pretty nice looking dog, but we neutered him at around 16 months - definitely not breeding quality.

I am a little more savvy now, and might have been concerned about his size even as a 6 week old puppy, but still…no one expected him to be this big. We have no idea how that happened.

But for future dogs - I am looking for show quality puppies. Even the best litters are no guarantee of show “quality” or success; but are a better guarantee than a poorly bred or rescue dog – not that they wouldn’t also make great pets.

[JBD]

I think there are enough breeders with pet quality puppies from their show parents breeding that deliberately breeding pet quality dogs is a little puppy mill-ish.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=JBD;8614652]
I think there are enough breeders with pet quality puppies from their show parents breeding that deliberately breeding pet quality dogs is a little puppy mill-ish.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. Breeding “pet quality” sounds like a bad thing. Breeding “healthy pets” might be a better description.

I think there are MANY breeds that are typically sought after by people as a first dog, a good pet for families, a healthy hiking partner, etc. “Show quality” breeding does not always put a priority on something like “good family dog”. Even in my own breed, which is well-known for friendly, happy temperaments, there are some dogs I would not breed to no matter how great the puppies will do in the show ring. Not for a dog I want to keep in MY house.

I think there should be a market for “pets” because otherwise it seems that there are “show breeders” and “Craigslist”.

A “healthy pet” breeder, in my opinion would select for health & temperament, do ALL the required (and even some recommended) health screens, and get some obedience titles or CGC or agility/rally to demonstrate “trainability”.

Depending on the breed, a conformation title could be sought after, but for some breeds known for being great pets (labs, goldens), it can be a long, brutal road to a Championship, even with a pro handler because of the large numbers of dogs.

That doesn’t mean the breeder still shouldn’t select for conformation in their breeding stock - soundness and conformation usually go together. Dogs with obvious faults (over/under appropriate size, out at the elbows, cow hocked, bad toplines) shouldn’t be bred; nor things like incorrect bites. “Perfect movement” isn’t necessary, though.

[Sswor]

Hate to say it but there’s a HUGE market for pet dogs. That’s why rescue groups keep importing dogs to the US and the north in particular. Perhaps if people still bred pets locally we could stop importing the diseases that come with dogs from the south and other countries too.

The rescue groups just fulfill the demand of the pet market that used to be served by BYB’s before they became demonized/out of vogue. Now that spay/neuter is mainstream and breeding your dog has become a vile thing to do, dogs and puppies have to be shipped in from far away to provide people with pets. And again, they bring their diseases with them. Not sure this is a better way or that the dogs really are any better off.

[JBD]

[QUOTE=Sswor;8614993]
Hate to say it but there’s a HUGE market for pet dogs. That’s why rescue groups keep importing dogs to the US and the north in particular. Perhaps if people still bred pets locally we could stop importing the diseases that come with dogs from the south and other countries too.

The rescue groups just fulfill the demand of the pet market that used to be served by BYB’s before they became demonized/out of vogue. Now that spay/neuter is mainstream and breeding your dog has become a vile thing to do, dogs and puppies have to be shipped in from far away to provide people with pets. And again, they bring their diseases with them. Not sure this is a better way or that the dogs really are any better off.[/QUOTE]

My rescue group in Texas works with another rescue in the NE to transport Chihuahua types for adoption. The “demonization” of irresponsible pet owners doesn’t seem to stop the overflow of pits and chis to the city shelters. We hold the dogs for at least 2 weeks before transport in our foster homes and don’t send sick pets. They are fixed, up to date on shots and microchipped.

Win, win. The dog lives and the adopter gets their pet. I hope eventually the southern areas will become more responsible and salute those who don’t have our unwanted pet problems.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Back yard breeding has been demonized because 90% of those dogs end up in shelters and are put to sleep. Because we here in the south think that if it’s got a uterus, it needs to have the “mothering experience”. Not to mention that there are many cases where a breeder will dump their puppies who aren’t show quality onto a rescue group for the breed. My mom has 5 bostons with papers from very nice lines, but their markings aren’t right. They came from a rescue because the breeder didn’t want them.

There are enough “quality pets” coming from breeders already. We don’t need anymore. We are having to send them up north because there is no more room down here and they are dying! And for some reason TN keeps crushing a bill to require licensing of breeders!

I get worked up on this subject… I apologize.

[Tornado_Run_Farm]

Admittedly I haven’t read every single post, but here is my take: Do you have the cojones necessary to be a responsible, reputable dog breeder - even for “pet quality?” Would you willing to cull your stock for congenital defects, temperament or other reasons?

I’ve known several professional dog breeders over the years, but none that made as much impact on me as a German gentleman I met many, many years ago. He bred Borzois, Whippets and German Shepherds, and was a professional top dog show judge that would often times travel across the U.S. & back to Germany to judge and conduct other breed related business. Enter me - I was very young and was hired to be the live-in kennel help while he was away. He allowed me to bring with me a year-old non-papered, intact, male Lab while living in the garage apt. Even though I knew the “ground rules,” which included keeping my dog on lead or kenneled at all times when about the grounds, I was lax and didn’t do it one day - I mean the dog came when called, right? Well, his Champion GS bitch got out when I was cleaning her run, and poof - both MY dog and the GS bitch took off and were gone all day. I owned up to it when this man returned, and sure enough - a few weeks later we knew his Champion bitch was bred to my Lab. I was calling and making sure I had all kinds of happy homes lined up who wanted the puppies, but he would always say, “not necessary.” When the bitch was close to whelping he took the dog into his house to whelp, which was his custom. I then learned what “not necessary” meant - he euthanized each and every puppy as it was born. Hard lesson for me, but he was a purist with his breed and did what he thought was necessary to preserve it.

I always kept in touch with this man - he ended up being a wonderful teacher & mentor, and a person who I held in high esteem. He would always say there was no such thing as a show quality pet - if that dog wasn’t shown, as most even purebred dogs aren’t, then they were pets.

Late in his years he gave up breeding, dissipated his brood stock, and moved out west. There he was given a wonderful Champion German brood bitch from one of his colleagues (wasn’t a GS, but one of those German guard dog breeds). He loved this dog, and she was a great companion for him in his elderly years. Afterwards - don’t know the exact sequence of events -he was given a stud dog, too, of the same breed, and he was toying with breeding them. But on three different occasions his beloved bitch got to the male and ravaged him - he had no control over her. The final time you know what he did? He took his bitch out to the woods and shot her - then called the breeder and told her the line should be culled. I was dumbfounded - and asked why he didn’t just spay her and get rid of the stud dog. His logic was very simple - he didn’t know how many years he had left and it would be irresponsible of him to allow that dog to end up potentially hurting someone after he was gone - spayed or not.

Anyway - I think very few of us would react similarly if faced with the same circumstances. But he was an example of what I consider a reputable dog breeder. It’s not for the feint of heart if done responsibly & ethically and just not litter “pets” to the winds.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Tornado, I assume this was before doggy abortions were a thing? Breaks my heart about the pups. I hope you’ve learned to alter your pets now.

[Tornado_Run_Farm]

[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8615380]
Tornado, I assume this was before doggy abortions were a thing? Breaks my heart about the pups. I hope you’ve learned to alter your pets now.[/QUOTE]

Yes - this was like 1970 or 1971. But the lesson stuck, and I did neuter my dog afterwards. And I have adopted pure bred or part-bred cast-offs every since - all neutered (both canine & feline).

The point is, I think it would be very hard to be a dog breeder - emotionally, and unless you have the heart for it (or lack thereof), it’s something better left to the pro’s who know and can handle the sad aspects of breeding.

[Ready_To_Riot]

You are very correct. Sadly few think like this.

[vxf111]

You also have to be prepared for unexpected heartache when you breed.

One of my trainers has a fairly rare breed. She spent years showing and mentoring and then was allowed to go own a quality bitch. She spent a long time researching and carefully planned a breeding between her bitch (titled) and a dog (titled).

Everything looked fine to the vet up until delivery when everything went wrong. There were all sorts of complications and the bitch had to go in for a c section ($$$). They lost 3 of the 6 puppies and could have lost the bitch too. Of the 3 puppies remaining, one had deformed legs and was never going to be able to walk. She made the decision to keep him instead of a pick puppy. Once day while she was not looking the bitch killed him (unclear if it was intentional because the bitch perceived him as weak or she accidentally sat on him). Tons and tons of thought, time, energy, emotion, and money–she had quality dogs, she could not have done anything more “right” and she still ended up with basically a total disaster.

The only bright side is that she then ended up keeping the pick dog and he’s super. But she’ll never breed again. And with the money invested, she could have bought a quality dog several times over instead.

[Houndhill]

There are so many more tragic tales than this, even than I’ve had- this was just my most recent so fresh in my mind.

I had bred the 2015 National Specialty Winner. Bred her to the 2014 National Specialty Winner (at the time the breeding was planned, neither had yet won the Specialty so that was fortuitous!), by frozen semen, shipped, surgical insemination (after all health testing of each, for generations).

Ultrasound found four puppies,all with heartbeats, yay! Everything going well, did X-ray at 60 days. Down to one puppy. Could have possibly been infection that allowed other puppies to be resorbed. Scheduled C- section (single puppies in this breed seldom inspire mothers to whelp).

Had C-section, delivered one apparently normal beautiful puppy. Yay!

Did the usual 24/7 with mother and puppy for the first two weeks, all apparently normal. Puppy opens her eyes, usual period of adjustment. Except puppy cannot see. Behavior begins to seem a bit off, as if puppy is autistic.

Upshot, after appointment with veterinary ophthalmologist and then vet school for CT scan- puppy is diagnosed as hydrocephalic.

Upshot is, puppy is 13 months old and doing great! She has been “mainstreamed” in classes, and is smart, can sit, down, walk on lead, and is very sweet. I have concluded that brains in dogs are “optional”!

But I have worked hard with her, will never show her, spent lots of money (am guessing at least $10k), and hopes and dreams, and the result is not what we had hoped.

But, sometimes, things do teach you things that you would not otherwise have learned.

What I am trying to convey, is that things do not always go as you expect or hope, and things can appear to be simple and straightforward, but they can go in quite another direction.