Having only read the first few and then the last pages, I will say that the problem with people buying purebred dogs lies not with the quality breeders, but with the uneducated people who don’t research the breed or breeders. I have only ever adopted and am an advocate for adopting WHEN FEASIBLE, but, as an example, my mother in law has an absolutely wonderful GSD (white, but that’s a whole different thread) who could not be replaced by anything from the shelters. He works, his parents worked and were titles, as were his grandparents.
My father-in-law’s GF (DH’s parents are divorced) wanted a border collie. She’s an idiot, so instead of researching good breeders, she bought one from the AMISH because it was close and she didn’t have to wait, and it turned out to be a mix of some sort that she could have easily gotten from the shelter. It’s a high energy dog with many of the qualities you AREN’T looking for in a BC, but thankfully I convinced her to employ a good trainer.
The tale of two dog-buyers…both purchased dogs from “breeders,” but I only have a problem with one.
If people like the dummy girlfriend would research their breed/breeders, the crappy breeders would go out of business.
That being said, I love my shelter dogs and have had three of the best dogs ever over the past 10 years, all picked up off of death row. But I am lucky and reasonably dog savvy.
And before that one poster comes on this thread and gets angry with me for bashing Amish dogs, every now and again you can get lucky. But that doesn’t change the fact that they’re puppy mills and many of their dogs end up dead or in shelters around here.
[QUOTE=dappled;8619315]
In general I wish there was more of an overlap between people who are pro-breeding and people who will only rescue. It does seem like there is a huge divide. Just because you’re a breeder or buy your dogs from one doesn’t mean you’re anti-rescue, but you clearly don’t think it’s the best way to get a dog, either. I think people have chips on their shoulders on both sides. Although you may be open to other people’s opinions, that doesn’t mean you will ever condone them. It’s just one of those things.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. I think people that rescue are wonderful. My issue is entirely with the “breeders” (and I use that term lightly) that conduct their business in such a way that their puppies end up needing rescuing. Of course any dog could end up in a shelter or rescue, but good breeders take back their puppies if something doesn’t work out.
Many of my show friends have rescue dogs in addition to show dogs. I don’t have any rescue dogs at the moment, but I’m definitely not against rescue.
But of course - there are some people that would never buy from a breeder, and there are some that would never want a dog from rescue; and there is nothing wrong with that. The idea that one or the other is “the wrong choice” is where I get annoyed. There are lots of reasons a person might choose a breeder OR a rescue; and all of them are legitimate.
There are breeders and then greeders. Breeders want to better their breed, they do all health testing and show or work their dogs. They pay attention to lines that cross well and put correct dogs on the ground, and only by accident will their dogs end up in a shelter or rescue. Breeders put their heart and soul in those babies, they have high hopes for them. Most help with rescue of their chosen breed. Breeders on the other hand only breed dogs to make money, puppy mills, Amish and back yard breeders. No health testing or even routine vet care for all that matters. Once the cash is in hand no more thought about the dog.
I’m usually a rescue advocate. I’ve been known to get quite vocal when people start in on wanting a pure bred puppy or dog. But only when they are going to a puppy mill or back yard breeder. I’ve been known to try to find a good breeder for people. I understand why, or what they want and will try to educate on what makes a good breeder and steer them in the right direction. I’ve also helped find good rescue groups for friends. I have friends who are good breeders. I respect them. If I was younger and could afford it, I’d buy a Dobe from my friends breeding.
There are strict laws now for breeders as far as selling their animals.
While rescues can ship dogs across country (or even in from outside the country) with little oversite regarding health or disease, then ‘home’ them to people who have not ever seen the dog yet have paid for it…
A breeder must have a buyer physically SEE and approve the dog.
No shipping to buyers sight unseen off a video and the breeder’s reputation.
-Realize that people often actually wait for a pup to become available from breeder XX…
then either breeder or agent or buyer must fly across country (with pup) AND go to the buyers home (no sales allowed in public places like parks, dog parks, etc.) to complete the transaction and ‘buy’ the dog.
And that is just the sale itself.
Yeah, breeders are making out like bandits ‘selling’ dogs they have invested years and thousands of dollars and hours in.
As opposed to ‘rescues’, with ‘free’ dogs, volunteer help, donations, the ability to advertise ‘adoptions’ at major pet store chains, malls, on-line, etc. etc.
Why the USA is taking on the ‘unwashed dogs of the entire world’ (which presumably were bred by someone in their home countries) and nearly shutting down good, responsible breeding activity in our own country is insanity?
There is a need for rescue. There is a need for licensing (rabies tags, etc) to be enforced.
Guess what? There is a need for responsible breeders.
Most people who are not them would never put up with what they have to, not to mention the insults, in order to be able to steward a breed of dogs for the next generation of people to enjoy and benefit from.
It is getting progressively harder for buyers to even find good breeders.
Who often have waiting lists of qualified homes for their dogs and are likely to ask somewhat pointed questions of unknown new buyers which may seem invasive or over the top.
And this is the reason:
-Breeders hate to hear that ‘fluffy’ ‘fell out of a pick up truck bed’ or ‘ran off and got run over; no , we never got the fence up…’ or ‘ate some chicken we gave her and the bones killed her’ or ‘we have to keep her in a crate all day and she has a bad temperament, she is so shy and fearful…’ or ‘we know how to train dogs, but she pees on the floor if we smack her; she is starting to growl at us…’
And the classic ‘we didn’t get around to having her spayed and she got out once… but that’s okay, we already have lots of people who said they want a pup… she’ll be OK having them in her doghouse, right?’
-Breeders are sad but relieved to hear ‘we are moving and just can’t keep her; will you take her back?’
instead of ‘…so we gave her away and don’t have the guy’s name or address’
For many people getting a dog from a shelter or rescue is a great way to get a dog.
For others getting a dog can be an adventure, even a struggle; especially a purebred from a good breeder - no matter how much that breeder wants for the dog.
There are good breeders and bad breeders. Rescue people generally don’t hate good breeders, whose puppies are planned for and sold before they hit the ground, but they hate bad breeders, who breed without plans and have puppies left over that often end up in shelters when they aren’t cute anymore. A good breeder breeds for the best dogs they can, with the best temperaments, bred to do something- whether that is conformation showing, agility, obedience, etc. Bad breeders breed because puppies are cute and they can get good money for a puppy. Good breeders don’t contribute to the pet overpopulation problem (and just because you live in the north where the unwanted animals freeze in the winter doesn’t mean there isn’t a pet overpopulation problem) because they take their dogs back if they don’t work out. Bad breeders often dump their own dogs at a shelter when they’re too old to breed or don’t work out for some reason. Good breeders aren’t villified. Bad breeders are- and there are a lot more of them.
Most people should rescue. They can get a reasonably good estimate of the dog’s personality (often it has been temperament tested, lived in a foster home, etc.) and any special needs it has. Most people don’t do dog sports, they want a companion to go hiking with, or carry around in their purse, or lounge on the couch with. That does not require a specific breed- a mix will do those jobs just fine, as long as the adopter knows what energy level and personality they’re getting, which is fairly easily assessed. Yes, there is an unknown history for most rescue dogs, but most rescue dogs that make it out of the shelter have no major issues. And a well bred puppy can still be aggressive or have behavior problems. Dogs are individuals.
People who are looking for a certain type of dog to do a certain type of thing should go through a reputable breeder that can help them select the right puppy to do what they want to do. If you want an agility dog, a purebred Border Collie is the right choice. But most people aren’t doing dog sports. They just want a companion, which any mixed breed is capable of. So for the general public, “adopt, don’t shop” is a good mantra, especially since the vast majority of the public doesn’t care to research breeders- hence why we have so many puppy mills.
[QUOTE=dappled;8619315]
Obviously you all think that I have an attitude when it comes to my stance as well.[/QUOTE]
Make no mistake, it most certainly comes across that way without question.
If you had spent the time to read the thread before you came out with guns blazing, you might have seen that there IS such an overlap. There are many on this board (and I believe some have them have posted as much on this very thread) who have multiple dogs in their lives that have come from both breeders AND rescues.
Having said that, I am not one of them. I have had family dogs since I was born into my family more than 4 decades ago, and not one has been a rescue. All were purchased from breeders who purposely produced the litter from which our puppies came, and we were able to meet the parents and see the environment into which the puppies were born and raised. I refuse to apologize for that, and I refuse to take seriously anyone who attempts to blame ME for the dog overpopulation problems of the country.
It’s very, very odd to me that anyone would suggest that the responsible breeders should stop breeding so that the idiots who have no clue what they are doing can keep on keeping on so they won’t have any competition and therefore the puppies they produce won’t have to end up in rescue situations and then the dog overpopulation problem will be solved. What?
I fail too to see the divide between GOOD breeders and rescues. So far, all of my dogs have been rescued, and I’ve fostered many more. When I started getting interested in conformation and showing I looked to breeders and spent years researching which ones are really breeding for the better of the breed. I was prepared to buy a puppy, when one fell into my lap through a massive rescue effort in MS.
My next dog will be from a breeder, as it’s a different breed for me and it’s one rarely seen in rescue, typically those dogs identity is known and their breeder takes them back. So to get what I want (show dog prospect, agility, dock diving, herding and most importantly a service dog) I will go through a GOOD breeder who can help me not only choose the right dog but also offer support and help when I need it.
Here’s a few of the many ACDs I’ve helped rescue in the last couple years.
https://instagram.com/p/BArAQPnljk6/
By far and large, GOOD breeders are involved in rescue in one way or another, because while it would be awesome if only GOOD breeders bred dogs that’s not the way the world works. But those breeders still feel responsible to help those dogs out anyway they can.
Let’s get real here shall we. Those of us who have invested decades and tens of thousands of dollars breeding purebred dogs for the love and betterment of a certain breed are not and have never been the problem with canine overpopulation.
It’s bob and Sally next door who get a puppy never spay or neuter it, let it roam and end up with an unwanted litter. It’s folks who bring home a pup and never socialize or train it and dump it in the pound when they can’t manage it. Or the people who once they have a kid dump their once beloved pets.
It’s idiots breeding pit bulls because they are the cool gang dog du jour, allowing them to breed with any other dog that stands still long enough.
It’s the dirt bag puppy mills that should be shut down. The uneducated that buy pups from these mills ending up with sick and genetically inferior dogs.
It has never been us, it will never be us conscientious responsible purebred breeders that are the problem. Anyone that’s blames us is frankly barking up the wrong tree.
I’m so tired of hearing that we are the problem when you should be out there helping to educate dog owners that have zero clue how to take care so that their animals don’t become part of the bigger problem.
Purebred dog clubs all over the country fund and run rescues for their breeds. I have personally rescued 3 in the last 6 years along with my purchased pups. We stand behind our breeds and do the work to make sure they always have a home. We don’t just talk the talk we walk the walk trying to educate prospective dog owners of all types how to be good stewards for their pets.
So next time you hear someone talking about wanting a dog please do your part to help them make an informed decision so their animal doesn’t end up unwanted, homeless or knocked up by the peek-a-beagle next door.
But don’t blame us.
[QUOTE=Brookes;8620213]
Let’s get real here shall we. Those of us who have invested decades and tens of thousands of dollars breeding purebred dogs for the love and betterment of a certain breed are not and have never been the problem with canine overpopulation.
It’s bob and Sally next door who get a puppy never spay or neuter it, let it roam and end up with an unwanted litter. It’s folks who bring home a pup and never socialize or train it and dump it in the pound when they can’t manage it. Or the people who once they have a kid dump their once beloved pets.
It’s idiots breeding pit bulls because they are the cool gang dog du jour, allowing them to breed with any other dog that stands still long enough.
It’s the dirt bag puppy mills that should be shut down. The uneducated that buy pups from these mills ending up with sick and genetically inferior dogs.
It has never been us, it will never be us conscientious responsible purebred breeders that are the problem. Anyone that’s blames us is frankly barking up the wrong tree.
I’m so tired of hearing that we are the problem when you should be out there helping to educate dog owners that have zero clue how to take care so that their animals don’t become part of the bigger problem.
Purebred dog clubs all over the country fund and run rescues for their breeds. I have personally rescued 3 in the last 6 years along with my purchased pups. We stand behind our breeds and do the work to make sure they always have a home. We don’t just talk the talk we walk the walk trying to educate prospective dog owners of all types how to be good stewards for their pets.
So next time you hear someone talking about wanting a dog please do your part to help them make an informed decision so their animal doesn’t end up unwanted, homeless or knocked up by the peek-a-beagle next door.
But don’t blame us.[/QUOTE]
This^^^^^^^^^^^ times ten.
It’s very, very odd to me that anyone would suggest that the responsible breeders should stop breeding so that the idiots who have no clue what they are doing can keep on keeping on so they won’t have any competition and therefore the puppies they produce won’t have to end up in rescue situations and then the dog overpopulation problem will be solved. What?
:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:
And Brookes’ post a thousand times YES.
Finally caught up on the thread. Whew! Lots to digest here.
I volunteered and then worked in an animal shelter. I held animals as they died, but I helped a great deal more get homes. And I would not advise a shelter dog for a first time dog owner unless they practically have a live-in trainer. Most of the dogs at your average shelter are either 1) friendly ferals or 2) the dogs that people bought when it was a CUTE PUPPY and didn’t quite realize that Lassie clones don’t just happen, so they dump it at the shelter. The dogs in both groups barely respond to their own names, let alone any commands. I’ve seen quite a few of them get returned to the shelter when the adopters also didn’t realize that they were going to have to put in some serious work to make the dog a upstanding member of the community.
Given my druthers, I’d prefer to steer a first-time dog owner to a foster-based rescue (so the foster people have a good idea of the dog’s temperament and have the time to start training) or a reputable breeder, so the adopter/owner isn’t starting from scratch. Blindly insisting that everyone rescue all the time is impractical at best.
[QUOTE=MNEventer;8621616]
Finally caught up on the thread. Whew! Lots to digest here.
I volunteered and then worked in an animal shelter. I held animals as they died, but I helped a great deal more get homes. And I would not advise a shelter dog for a first time dog owner unless they practically have a live-in trainer. Most of the dogs at your average shelter are either 1) friendly ferals or 2) the dogs that people bought when it was a CUTE PUPPY and didn’t quite realize that Lassie clones don’t just happen, so they dump it at the shelter. The dogs in both groups barely respond to their own names, let alone any commands. I’ve seen quite a few of them get returned to the shelter when the adopters also didn’t realize that they were going to have to put in some serious work to make the dog a upstanding member of the community.
Given my druthers, I’d prefer to steer a first-time dog owner to a foster-based rescue (so the foster people have a good idea of the dog’s temperament and have the time to start training) or a reputable breeder, so the adopter/owner isn’t starting from scratch. Blindly insisting that everyone rescue all the time is impractical at best.[/QUOTE]
I have also worked in a shelter, though it was no-kill. I disagree with your advice that a first time dog owner shouldn’t have a rescue. I have seen many dogs go to first time dog owners that have lived only in a shelter setting, and the owners have no issues with training. Maybe just got particularly exceptional dogs, but I doubt it. We screened people better than the county shelter, certainly, but we did not have an issue with dogs being returned because of training issues. More often it was people who didn’t realize the commitment a puppy took (despite being warned repeatedly), another animal in the household didn’t take well to the new addition, or people’s situations changed and they could no longer keep the dog.
The dogs we got fit into many more categories than friendly ferals or dumped ex-cute puppies. Our population consisted largely of dogs found stray and picked up by animal control. They ran the gamut from shih-tzu, to chihuahua, to lab, to pit bull. All were temperment tested by animal control before they came to us. The vast majority of dogs in our population had no training whatsoever. We told our adopters the dog would need to be housebroken and trained. Most little dogs we saw later were housebroken but the owner never bothered to teach them any commands, but almost all of the larger dogs managed to sit for a treat, even if that’s all they could do. We had few complaints about lack of training- it was expected that the adopter do it.
I now work in a vet’s office. I see all types of dogs come in on a daily basis. Their owners run the gamut from breeder to redneck who found a dog on the side of the road. Each dog has a different level of effort put into their training, and many people are first time dog owners with rescues. They don’t have dog trainers. Most owners at least ask their dog to sit on the scale, with varying success, but most will for a treat. Most dogs AREN’T upstanding members of the community. They walk on a leash, don’t pee in the house, and sit occasionally when the owner waves a cookie in front of their face. This is true for purebreds and rescues. I actually find the people with the purebreds to have more problems with their dogs’ behavior in our lobby. The first time dog owners with rescues are doing just fine.
There are no guarantees, even with well bred dogs. We waited over a year for our first springer spaniel puppy. Bought her from well known local breeder, tested, no history of issues in the parents. Met her parents, home raised, sweet puppy. NOT a puppy mill. Most beautiful puppy I’ve ever seen. We lost her at 13 1/2 back in October and still miss her today (even blind and deaf, the tail still wagged-right up until the very last day). However…she had what appeared to be a mild case of springer rage (never officially dx, but threw a good temper tantrum more than once), had PRA at age ten and some weird kind of skin cancer for many years. I have a second one (related) with none of those issues, but a ear infection that I can’t get rid of no matter what I try. She’s already had one ear (internal) removed. She’s 11 1/2 so that’s out of the question for the second one.
Would I get another springer? In a heartbeat-as soon as I can talk the DH into it. Millie was his dog and he still goes out and talks to her at her grave, so it may be a while…
[QUOTE=Perfect10;8621673]
I have also worked in a shelter, though it was no-kill. I disagree with your advice that a first time dog owner shouldn’t have a rescue. I have seen many dogs go to first time dog owners that have lived only in a shelter setting, and the owners have no issues with training. Maybe just got particularly exceptional dogs, but I doubt it. We screened people better than the county shelter, certainly, but we did not have an issue with dogs being returned because of training issues. More often it was people who didn’t realize the commitment a puppy took (despite being warned repeatedly), another animal in the household didn’t take well to the new addition, or people’s situations changed and they could no longer keep the dog.
The dogs we got fit into many more categories than friendly ferals or dumped ex-cute puppies. Our population consisted largely of dogs found stray and picked up by animal control. They ran the gamut from shih-tzu, to chihuahua, to lab, to pit bull. All were temperment tested by animal control before they came to us. The vast majority of dogs in our population had no training whatsoever. We told our adopters the dog would need to be housebroken and trained. Most little dogs we saw later were housebroken but the owner never bothered to teach them any commands, but almost all of the larger dogs managed to sit for a treat, even if that’s all they could do. We had few complaints about lack of training- it was expected that the adopter do it.
I now work in a vet’s office. I see all types of dogs come in on a daily basis. Their owners run the gamut from breeder to redneck who found a dog on the side of the road. Each dog has a different level of effort put into their training, and many people are first time dog owners with rescues. They don’t have dog trainers. Most owners at least ask their dog to sit on the scale, with varying success, but most will for a treat. Most dogs AREN’T upstanding members of the community. They walk on a leash, don’t pee in the house, and sit occasionally when the owner waves a cookie in front of their face. This is true for purebreds and rescues. I actually find the people with the purebreds to have more problems with their dogs’ behavior in our lobby. The first time dog owners with rescues are doing just fine.[/QUOTE]
The shelter I worked at was open-admissions, so we took all comers. Therefore, lots of hyperactive pit and lab mixes which were at the peak of adolescence and not the most trainable. I still would recommend a rescue for a first time owner, but from a foster-based rescue. I can’t count how many times we had a dog returned because their personality completely changed once they were adopted (even though we repeatedly told them that was a possibility). At least with a foster-based rescue, they have a good idea of how a dog will behave in a home. I won’t say that first-time owners adopting from a shelter never works out; I’ve seen it work a bunch of times (mostly when we knew the dog’s history). It’s just that when it goes wrong, it tends to go really wrong.
[QUOTE=Brookes;8620213]
Let’s get real here shall we. Those of us who have invested decades and tens of thousands of dollars breeding purebred dogs for the love and betterment of a certain breed are not and have never been the problem with canine overpopulation.
[snip][/QUOTE]
I hear you on this. Responsible breeders are not CAUSING the problem, no.
However.
There are literally millions of families that have no need to buy (and sometimes no business with) a purebred puppy of X breed. The number of people who absolutely need a dog to do X, Y, and Z is vanishingly small. The average shelter mutt would suit at least 90% of average (read: non-competitive in a breed ring/sport, doesn’t actually use dog for purpose-bred activities) owners.
I am not saying that there shouldn’t be purebred dogs as family pets or that there should be minimum criteria that you will use the dog to do the things it was bred to do. But if there were less purebred dogs in the world, the demand for dogs probably wouldn’t go down - it’s just that more people would be looking to shelters and rescues.
I know people who have rescued and I know people who have purchased from breeders. They all did what was right for them. The dog I have now is a shelter mutt, but I won’t rule out purchasing a purebred dog down the road if I want to get into a specific sport/discipline/activity.
All this to say, while I am not criticizing responsible breeders and I don’t believe you are causing the overpopulation problem, I understand why people feel you are indirectly contributing to it.
[QUOTE=french fry;8623440]
I hear you on this. Responsible breeders are not CAUSING the problem, no.
However.
There are literally millions of families that have no need to buy (and sometimes no business with) a purebred puppy of X breed. The number of people who absolutely need a dog to do X, Y, and Z is vanishingly small. The average shelter mutt would suit at least 90% of average (read: non-competitive in a breed ring/sport, doesn’t actually use dog for purpose-bred activities) owners.
I am not saying that there shouldn’t be purebred dogs as family pets or that there should be minimum criteria that you will use the dog to do the things it was bred to do. But if there were less purebred dogs in the world, the demand for dogs probably wouldn’t go down - it’s just that more people would be looking to shelters and rescues.
I know people who have rescued and I know people who have purchased from breeders. They all did what was right for them. The dog I have now is a shelter mutt, but I won’t rule out purchasing a purebred dog down the road if I want to get into a specific sport/discipline/activity.
All this to say, while I am not criticizing responsible breeders and I don’t believe you are causing the overpopulation problem, I understand why people feel you are indirectly contributing to it.[/QUOTE]
I’m still hearing a little of that “a dog is a dog” mentality, though I appreciate the acknowledgement that some breeds tend to be more successful at some performance activities.
However, I think it is perfectly legitimate to love a breed based on its typical personality and morphology, even if that breed tends to actually be less good at whatever performance events the owner might be competing in.
For example, my breed- Irish Wolfhounds- would not be the first (or second, third, or fourth choice) of the serious obedience competitor. I happen to enjoy this challenge. I know that I will have to work much harder at it than my friends do with their more traditionally successful obedience breeds. Irish Wolfhounds are independent, tend to be very soft in temperament, and tend to have the work ethic
of a particularly lazy hippie with a warped sense of humor. They often have to specifically taught how to get themselves into a sitting position.
I wouldn’t have them any other way. I accept and have come to embrace the challenge of working with them in competitive obedience. I might enjoy Agility with another breed, but since wolfhounds have to belly-crawl through the tunnel ( if they fit at all), and can get seriously hurt if they fall off the Dog Walk, I don’t compete in Agility.
I’m trying to work with one in Tracking, but since they are more visual in nature, it does not come as naturally to her.
However, I love the personality, empathy, quiet demeanor, and sweetness of them. I love watching them gallop in huge circles. On the plus side, we are not bothered by wolves, and IWs traditionally lead the St. Patrick’s Day parades in many cities, guarding the bagpiper. We have never lost a Piper.
Just as I love IWs and choose to live with them, other people love their breeds for their own constellation of personality traits and morphology. These preferences may involve the breed excelling at some performance events, but some people just love a breed for a whole plethora of reasons, and still prefer them to a random/mixed breed/dog-is-a-dog.
Just thought I would speak out for the “performance challenged” breeds!
Houndhill,
I’m not saying they’re all just dogs - what I am saying, though, is that you could undoubtedly find many of the qualities you admire in your IWs in a rescue dog.
From what you describe, you would looooooooooooove my beagle street mutt (at least her personality - she definitely doesn’t resemble an IW at all, though I’m sure you could find something that does!) I’ve never heard her personality described more accurately than the way you talk about your IWs!
And, say, someone who likes the border collie temperament but doesn’t need the extreme athleticism necessary for serious dog sports would be obsessed with my friend’s smart, enthusiastic, drivey, willing to please…boxer/??? mix!
I’m not in support of taking away your agency when it comes to choosing a breed. I’m just saying that if suddenly purebred dogs weren’t available to the general public, do you see yourself giving up dogs entirely or seeing what the local shelter has to offer? I think many people would choose the latter option.
In this way, breeders indirectly contribute to the overpopulation problem. Their dogs are accounted for, yes! But their dogs are (in some people’s opinions) taking up “slots” that could easily be filled by rescues.
