dumb breeding questions from a newbie

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=dappled;8617403]
I’ll just quickly throw my two cents in here. Count me in with the group who passionately detests dog breeding. There’s no real reason for it. Spay your dog; she’ll be a lot happier. There are already enough homeless animals in the world.

I don’t know what it is with the horse community and this dog breed snobbery. Rescues are great. And there are breed-specific rescues if you want a pure-bred dog for whatever reason. Why contribute to the overpopulation? For every puppy you sell, there is a rescue who doesn’t get adopted.

steps off soapbox[/QUOTE]

I think you have been misinformed.

First off, the rescues, shelters, etc. charge fees for re homing of dogs. They don’t give them to you. Labelling it adoption instead of selling is an absurdity since an animal will never grow up and become independent and self-supporting and contribute to civilization as a human adoptee most likely will.

Second, if ‘purebred’ breeders don’t breed, there will be NO supposedly purebreds to ‘adopt’ from re-homers.

Assuming that purebred breeders are like peas in a pod is like comparing one family of people to another and saying all their children are ‘just the same’ so who cares if they get mixed up at the hospital or by the teachers at school.

There are breeders who will literally go around the world to bring back their breeding which isn’t fitting into the home selected for it.
There are breeders that stand behind health guarantees and test their dogs for recessive genetic impairment so their puppies are clear.
There are breeders who do extensive temperament testing and training of their dogs and pups to be sure and match them to new owners and refuse to breed questionable temperaments: some will retain as their own pets problem animals or they will euth them rather than foist them on another - even a softie who would ‘give the poor thing a home’.

It is reverse snobbery to think that only through rescue can compassion for animals be expressed.
It is offensive to have people ‘trot out’ the ‘we rescued it’ smugness repeatedly when seeing a snappish, unsocialized, untrained, conformationally uncomfortable and lame “pet” that seems to be nothing more than a couch ornament to stroke their egos.
It is sad to see people give their hearts to dogs that have horrific health problems or poor temperaments that are really not ‘pet material’, let alone watching them decide to not have another dog -ever - because of that experience.

Recently there was a study showing that only 5% of all dogs in shelters were purebred.

I would assume the 95% others were ‘bred’ by people who care less about dogs than ‘purebred’ breeders.

Who do you think breeds them, because ALL dogs are either owned by humans and thus bred (responsibly or otherwise), OR they are feral as a result of irresponsible ownership in the last generation.

That doesn’t take into account the difference between ‘good’ responsible breeders and ‘puppy-millers’ and ‘just one litter so she can be a mommy’ breeders in the purebred world.

[dkcbr]

It is reverse snobbery to think that only through rescue can compassion for animals be expressed.
It is offensive to have people ‘trot out’ the ‘we rescued it’ smugness repeatedly when seeing a snappish, unsocialized, untrained, conformationally uncomfortable and lame “pet” that seems to be nothing more than a couch ornament to stroke their egos.
It is sad to see people give their hearts to dogs that have horrific health problems or poor temperaments that are really not ‘pet material’, let alone watching them decide to not have another dog -ever - because of that experience.

I liked the whole post, but this is my favorite part. Thank you…

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618113]
I feel like this is a hard thing to discuss without arguing, because people tend to have very polar opinions and be rather stuck to them.

But, in short, I guess I’m of the opinion that certain dogs aren’t “better” than others. To me, dogs are dogs, and one is just as deserving as the next, regardless of its breeding.[/QUOTE]

In many instances shelters and rescues are implying that their buyers (adopters) are better because the dogs offered are ‘deathrow dogs’ so adopting one makes the adopter better.

Dog breeders don’t feel their dogs are deserving of homes because they will be euthed if not sold, but because they have been bred and selected to fill specific niches in the ‘useful dog’ pantheon, whether as companions or in work.

Breeds would not exist if there wasn’t a difference between dogs, and performance was the basis for selecting dogs by humans long before there were purebred breeders.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=dappled;8617917]
I’m sorry, but breeders are absolutely responsible for the unwanted dog population. Like I said, for every puppy they produce and sell, the homeless dog population stays stagnant. If they’re not producing, people will only have the option of adopting rescues, thus reducing the population of homeless animals.

What utter and absolute BS. The folks who seek me out are not deciding between a purebred dog, from health tested and titled parents OR a shelter dog. They wait for a puppy which meets their requirements to be available. The folks who come to my husband for a dog to hunt with are also not going to pick out a shelter dog. We are active with our local respective breed specific rescues. All of our puppies are microchipped and can be traced back to us at any point. If I couldn’t have a Pembroke or other herding breed of choice (none of which are in our area shelter system) I wouldn’t have a dog. I want a CORGI not a DOG

The argument that purebreds are somehow “quality” dogs is BS. I’m tired of hearing people say they want a “quality” dog. Seriously? It makes me want to roll my eyes back into my head. At the end of the day, a dog is a dog. They will still be happy to see you when you get home, and they will still give the same amount of love. Not to mention, reputable shelters go through behavior and temperament tests with each dog they take in, so the “I want to know what I’m getting” argument is just an excuse. You do know what you’re getting, and you have your pick of hundreds of rescue dogs - surely you will be able to find one with the temperament you desire.

Saying a dog is a dog is likely telling a diehard Saddleseart rider that they should be happy with any old thing on Craigslist which needs a home instead of the Morgan/Saddlebred/NSH/Arab they want to buy young and start right. Having seen some of what comes up from the south to be quarantined here before going in to the local shelters–no, they’re not temperament testing across the board. I’ve met many that I wouldn’t consider safe placeable dogs. The rescue dogs are shipped up to the area sight unseen and adopted in to homes without folks getting to meet them ahead of time. And there sure as heck isn’t a lot of choice. It is pit type or hound type for your choices or the rare chihuahua. Not everyone’s cup of tea

Shame on parents who “buy” dogs for their children. Teaching my kids about compassion and giving an animal in need a home is far more important to me than being able to parade around “quality” purebred dog.[/QUOTE]

What–they teach their kids that adding a dog is a decision which needs to be thought out and that there isn’t gratification if you want a specific type of dog

[D_BaldStockings]

I would not worry if a strange young child ran up and hugged one of my dogs.
They were selected for temperament for generations by my breeder. - not that there aren’t some dogs of less stable temperament in the breed, but my breeder won’t breed to such dogs.
They go to dog parks and always go over and say ‘hello’ to the other people in a gentle, tail-wagging way: they are pleasant in company.

They are by and large healthy and have been cleared by parentage of certain genetic flaws.

I waited two years for my first one. I now have several.

I have had about 50% pound/shelter dogs and 50% ‘purebred’ breeder dogs over many decades.

They were and are all good dogs.

[dappled]

Honestly I wish I had never posted in this thread. It is clear that the delusion and entitlement runs deep.

I have never in my life encountered someone who adopted a dog they absolutely did not want or couldn’t care less about just so they could “rub in everyone’s face” that they rescued a dog. That is asinine.

I’m sorry you all feel so strongly that your dogs are superior and that you have the authority to make these kinds of decisions regardless of their ethical and moral repercussions. Best of luck to you.

[Brookes]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618710]
Honestly I wish I had never posted in this thread. It is clear that the delusion and entitlement runs deep.

No we aren’t delusional we are deeply involved in the quality breeding of purebred dogs for both the conformation ring, hunt field and obience arena etc. we have spent decades making sure that we only breed the best of the best. We want our pups to be placed in excellent homes so they live long healthy lives doing the job they are bred to do. Or on occasion being a pampered pet.

I have never in my life encountered someone who adopted a dog they absolutely did not want or couldn’t care less about just so they could “rub in everyone’s face” that they rescued a dog. That is asinine.

Yes folks these days love to wave their personal “I rescued” flag all over social media. You’ve taken it to an unrealistic conclusion .

I’m sorry you all feel so strongly that your dogs are superior and that you have the authority to make these kinds of decisions regardless of their ethical and moral repercussions. Best of luck to you.[/QUOTE]

Yes actually my dogs are superior to some pit bull, doodle, chi mix I would pick up at the pound with an unknown health history. My dogs have been specifically bred to be healthy, hearty and humane. I know their parents, grandparents, and great grand parents. They come to my home between 12 and 16 weeks after being tested for a variety of genetic issues along with personality traits. I then have the chance to turn them into champions that are pampered and adored. My breed of choice is Gordon setters, just placed on the endangered breed list in Britain. It’s my responsibility as a lover of the breed for over 25 years to help produce and keep the breed viable. I have a spectacular little girl that is 15 weeks old, she is going to perform in all 3 areas, beauty, brains and bird sense. When she has championship in all three she will be fully health tested and ONLY if she passes with flying colors will she be chosen to breed. Yes I do consider that a superior breeding resulting in a superior dog. Not some accident that ended up in the pound because some jerk was too lazy to spay their, pit-rott-chow mix.

[Brookes]

Sorry iPad not cooperating, please see above my answers are included in original quote

[Sswor]

It’s incredible that mankind has been able to create the vast diversity that we see in the dog and it would be a tremendous loss to find ourselves without it. It only takes one generation to lose purebred genetic material and it’s gone forever, really. Within, what, 3 random out crosses, the domestic type refers to the feral phenotype [right?]. This is what the rescue people want? Seems very fringey.

eta; the accompanying questions is, ‘to what purpose?’ and the answer to that end game is no more dogs, working or pets, at all.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618710]
Honestly I wish I had never posted in this thread. It is clear that the delusion and entitlement runs deep.

I have never in my life encountered someone who adopted a dog they absolutely did not want or couldn’t care less about just so they could “rub in everyone’s face” that they rescued a dog. That is asinine.

I’m sorry you all feel so strongly that your dogs are superior and that you have the authority to make these kinds of decisions regardless of their ethical and moral repercussions. Best of luck to you.[/QUOTE]

I think one could argue the delusion is alive and well on both sides.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone ask for help finding a breeder on a FB group only to have multiple people write attack them with “adopt don’t shop!!” - and “Please RESCUE!” because they feel (as do you) that it is BETTER to adopt than breed. And imply (as you are doing) that breeding is BAD (and the natural conclusion to that argument is that a person who buys from a breeder is BAD.)

This is not an issue of entitlement, but you’re obviously not willing to listen to people who don’t agree with you. For most of us, it’s not an issue of “superiority” but selection for suitability. I find it hard to believe that you can’t understand that. If not, though - go take a shelter mix hunting. Maybe that will help you understand.

Again - if more people found their purebred dogs through reputable breeders, there would be far fewer needing rescue. A good breeder helps a buyer make sure that the breed is suitable for them before they get one.

[dappled]

[QUOTE=S1969;8618891]
I think one could argue the delusion is alive and well on both sides.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone ask for help finding a breeder on a FB group only to have multiple people write attack them with “adopt don’t shop!!” - and “Please RESCUE!” because they feel (as do you) that it is BETTER to adopt than breed. And imply (as you are doing) that breeding is BAD (and the natural conclusion to that argument is that a person who buys from a breeder is BAD.)

This is not an issue of entitlement, but you’re obviously not willing to listen to people who don’t agree with you. For most of us, it’s not an issue of “superiority” but selection for suitability. I find it hard to believe that you can’t understand that. If not, though - go take a shelter mix hunting. Maybe that will help you understand.

Again - if more people found their purebred dogs through reputable breeders, there would be far fewer needing rescue. A good breeder helps a buyer make sure that the breed is suitable for them before they get one.[/QUOTE]

Do you realize how unpleasant you’re being? I mean, do you? The door swings both ways. If I supposedly think I’m better, then so do you. Please don’t patronize me and tell me that I “don’t understand.” I absolutely understand. However, you’re honestly arguing that it’s bad or somehow rude for people to encourage adoption rather than buying. I am done with trying to argue. I’ve tried to say that several times, and you just keep going. Does it matter to you that much to be able to shove your opinions down people’s throats?

Honestly. Agree to disagree and move on.

[scierra]

I’m a person who believes in rescue, I’m against back yard breeding, puppy mills and the hobby breeder, but 100% behind COE breeders. I will always get my dogs from shelters or rescue groups, but if I wanted a purebred puppy I would research breeders and go from there. If it was a working breed I would want to see working titles on the parent dogs, because I think a lot of confirmation lines have bred out the working ability. Not all, just quite a few. I would look for a breeder who is out there bettering their breed by doing all the health testing, and proving the dogs are able to do the task in front of them.

A dog is not just a dog. Each breed brings generations of hard wired genetics to the table. Put it this way, say I like a medium sized dog, black and white being my color choice and live a sedentary lifestyle, I would not do well with a Border Collie. But the looks and size fit my preferences. By thinking a dog is just dog at the end of the day would the dog or myself no favors. By using that example I would be wise to go to a breeder who would direct me to a different breed, and a COE breeder would do that, or find a mixed breed at a rescue who would fit my lifestyle.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618932]
Do you realize how unpleasant you’re being? I mean, do you? The door swings both ways. [/QUOTE]

Ok, yes it does swing both ways. You come onto a thread with 20 breeders and call them entitled and delusional, and you think I’m being unpleasant?

I have no problem with rescue. I only have a problem with bullies - those people that scream “adopt don’t shop!” are not encouraging rescue - they are (to use your words) trying to shove their opinion down people’s throats.

[dappled]

[QUOTE=S1969;8618944]
Ok, yes it does swing both ways. You come onto a thread with 20 breeders and call them entitled and delusional, and you think I’m being unpleasant?

I have no problem with rescue. I only have a problem with bullies - those people that scream “adopt don’t shop!” are not encouraging rescue - they are (to use your words) trying to shove their opinion down people’s throats.[/QUOTE]

To be honest, I didn’t read the entire thread before I posted. I figured it would be going both ways, but as it turns out it’s overwhelmingly one-sided in here. :lol:

It is what it is. People tend to be set in their ways about certain things…politics, religion… and apparently, animals lol.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=shadedingray;8618261]

In reference to temperament testing, I don’t think one test done by a rescue or shelter is enough to be 100% sure of any dog’s temperament. There are so many factors, triggers, situations that could affect the results of a test done by a rescue, through no fault of theirs. They’re doing the best they can in the environment and time period they have available for each animal needing testing.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. You said what I was trying to say but in a much more clear way.

Dappled, I think the thing you are missing is that no one here is against rescue. Read any thread here and you will see that most people point towards rescue, be it a shelter or a breed specific rescue.

Wanting good breeders to better a breed does not mean people are anti rescue.

[dkcbr]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618961]
To be honest, I didn’t read the entire thread before I posted. I figured it would be going both ways, but as it turns out it’s overwhelmingly one-sided in here. :lol:

It is what it is. People tend to be set in their ways about certain things…politics, religion… and apparently, animals lol.[/QUOTE]

You were in a hurry to say your piece and weren’t interested enough in other people’s thoughts to bother reading those first. But of course it’s the other people who are set in their ways.

[scierra]

When I was working as a shelter behaviorist we tried hard to find the core behavior of the dog in front of us. We were trained by a reputable behaviorist/ trainer, and used a modified safer test. We were taught that all dogs had a core behavior it would fall back on in times of stress, that gave us a baseline for home recommendations. We knew it wasn’t set in stone, but had only so much time to work with the dog in evaluations. Then we could do kennel enrichment and observation. We would do multiple dog intros. If we needed we did large to small dogs, female to male, same sex, altered and unaltered. We would do food and treats with people and dogs. I was very proud of the work we did to evaluate our dogs. Did we always get it right, no, but usually we were confident with our recommendations. We also didn’t stop the behavior evaluations at the eval room, we watched the dogs all through the system and gathered feedback from other workers or the volunteers.

Can things be missed, yes. Rescues and shelters can do a good job of knowing the temperament of the dogs in their system. Plus a lot of rescue dogs are living in foster homes so what you see in front of you is pretty much what you get.

[dappled]

[QUOTE=dkcbr;8619098]
You were in a hurry to say your piece and weren’t interested enough in other people’s thoughts to bother reading those first. But of course it’s the other people who are set in their ways. ;)[/QUOTE]

No, I did not sit and read every single post, though I did read the first few pages. I’m interested in what other people have to say…it’s generally just the tone and attitude that comes with it that I don’t like. And I realize it goes both ways. Obviously you all think that I have an attitude when it comes to my stance as well.

In general I wish there was more of an overlap between people who are pro-breeding and people who will only rescue. It does seem like there is a huge divide. Just because you’re a breeder or buy your dogs from one doesn’t mean you’re anti-rescue, but you clearly don’t think it’s the best way to get a dog, either. I think people have chips on their shoulders on both sides. Although you may be open to other people’s opinions, that doesn’t mean you will ever condone them. It’s just one of those things.

[shadedingray]

dappled, while I disagree with most of what you have said, I do agree with you that there is a divide between people who want to purchase purebreds and those who want to rescue.

I am pro-rescue, but I am also someone who wants to own a purebred to do a specific dog sport. If possible, I would love to open my home to fosters to help give homeless animals a soft place to land. I’ve done some rescuing and re-homing informally myself before and the amount of homeless animals in this world is heartbreaking. But I don’t think responsible breeders should be faulted for this. I truly believe it is the people who think they should mix two breeds to create mutts for no reason and unscrupulous people who sell to any random person that have created this overpopulation problem.

[libgrrl]

[QUOTE=dappled;8619315]

In general I wish there was more of an overlap between people who are pro-breeding and people who will only rescue. It does seem like there is a huge divide. Just because you’re a breeder or buy your dogs from one doesn’t mean you’re anti-rescue, but you clearly don’t think it’s the best way to get a dog, either.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that is true at all. I know quite a number of “dog show” people who also have a rescue dog. They may want something specific out of a dog in terms of behavior/looks/performance, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t willing to provide a home a needy pooch too. I think you are creating a divide that doesn’t exist. Do you know people that have a show horse AND a trail pony?