dumb breeding questions from a newbie

[Tornado_Run_Farm]

@ Tornado Run Farm - Did he ever discuss why he bred in the first place? Was he trying to better the breed? Or make money? Or a bit of both?

He had a real passion for preserving or bettering the integrity of those breeds he championed. He was not only a top show judge, he was very involved in the politics of AKC and local breed & kennel clubs. He would often rail about the tinkering of breed standards to accommodate “fashion” to the detriment of movement & soundness of the dog. For instance (often when into his brandy), he would rail about the direction of the “American Shepherds,” that were becoming too light in bone, too long backed in order to achieve the Shepherd stance - but were doing nothing but infusing dysplasia into the breed. Then there was the “fashion” of having a lot of bling on the Boxer, producing exorbitant numbers of solid white Boxers – and deafness. (And yes, most breeders who whelped those would cull.) I asked him once about deafness issues in Dalmations – his only response, “that’s THEIR problem” meaning he just had no interest in that breed.

I also remember him getting quite involved with a top breeder of English Springer Spaniels and worked with her diligently to identify and breed out lines that exhibited the Springer Rage Syndrome. I remember him in very heated discussions with the city’s Director of Animal Control because he felt the agency wasn’t doing enough to investigate and shut down puppy mills. He also held a total disdain for back yard breeders – mainly because they had no idea of what they had, what lines they had and no idea what kind of characteristics or temperaments they were breeding – were just breeding for the $. And on the flip side, he couldn’t understand why anyone would buy a dog without “doing the homework” - i.e., researching the lineage to know what they were caring for and feeding. He would always say it cost no more to feed a good dog than a bad one.

He passed away about 10 years ago, but not before the emergence of “designer dogs” – Goldendoodles, Chi-weenies, etc., which, as you can imagine, made him bat crazy.

And yes, tabula rashah, I called him that often - and I wasn’t the only one. But I did respect him.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=dappled;8617917]
I’m sorry, but breeders are absolutely responsible for the unwanted dog population. Like I said, for every puppy they produce and sell, the homeless dog population stays stagnant. If they’re not producing, people will only have the option of adopting rescues, thus reducing the population of homeless animals.

The argument that purebreds are somehow “quality” dogs is BS. I’m tired of hearing people say they want a “quality” dog. Seriously? It makes me want to roll my eyes back into my head. At the end of the day, a dog is a dog. They will still be happy to see you when you get home, and they will still give the same amount of love. Not to mention, reputable shelters go through behavior and temperament tests with each dog they take in, so the “I want to know what I’m getting” argument is just an excuse. You do know what you’re getting, and you have your pick of hundreds of rescue dogs - surely you will be able to find one with the temperament you desire.

Shame on parents who “buy” dogs for their children. Teaching my kids about compassion and giving an animal in need a home is far more important to me than being able to parade around “quality” purebred dog.[/QUOTE]

This attitude is just plain ignorant.

“Purebred” is not the same as “responsibly bred” or “quality”. Purebred only means you know what breed it is. Comparing people whose dogs get knocked up by accident to responsible breeders that spend their entire lives raising and selecting dogs for desireable attributes is beoynd ridiculous.

And saying “a dog is just a dog” is like saying that Zenyatta and a grade mare picked up at the Camelot auction are the same. Maybe they are the same to you, but to a lot of people…not so much. Pedigrees and selection are really important for hunting, for performance sports, and for simply maintaining the “breed type” that make certain breeds more desirable as pets or companions.

No one is forcing you to buy a purebred dog. Go rescue one (or 10) if it makes you feel good about yourself. But, really, if more people bought from responsible breeders - the shelters and rescues would not be so full.

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=dappled;8617917]
I’m sorry, but breeders are absolutely responsible for the unwanted dog population. Like I said, for every puppy they produce and sell, the homeless dog population stays stagnant. If they’re not producing, people will only have the option of adopting rescues, thus reducing the population of homeless animals.

The argument that purebreds are somehow “quality” dogs is BS. I’m tired of hearing people say they want a “quality” dog. Seriously? It makes me want to roll my eyes back into my head. At the end of the day, a dog is a dog. They will still be happy to see you when you get home, and they will still give the same amount of love. Not to mention, reputable shelters go through behavior and temperament tests with each dog they take in, so the “I want to know what I’m getting” argument is just an excuse. You do know what you’re getting, and you have your pick of hundreds of rescue dogs - surely you will be able to find one with the temperament you desire.

Shame on parents who “buy” dogs for their children. Teaching my kids about compassion and giving an animal in need a home is far more important to me than being able to parade around “quality” purebred dog.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I have nothing against rescuing. I have nothing against responsible breeding. However, your first statement doesn’t make sense to me. For this to be true, that means that all dogs are the same and are interchangeable. They are not.

If people want a specific dog, they will NOT just go down and adopt any dog out there. My younger dog is the first purebred I’ve purchased, all my other animals are adoptions. I got him because I was interested in getting into showing and a couple specific dog sports and wanted to be competitive. I did research, figured out what would work best, and started contacting breeders. I’m pretty well hooked on the breed now, and future dogs will be this specific breed. Why? Because I really enjoy this type, this style of thinking, and it fits well with my lifestyle and my goals.

You cannot find this breed in shelters - the breeders and parent club do an amazing job of taking care of their own and none of these dogs make it to shelters. Now it did take almost two years in between my deciding that this was the breed that I wanted and my having a puppy in hand, because the breeders had wait lists. I have friends that like dogs and have pet dogs, but none of them show, or do dog sports, and they all thought I was completely nuts for waiting that long for a puppy. They could not understand why one dog wasn’t just the same as and completely interchangeable for another dog. Now that they see us training and see how he acts, they’re starting to understand where I was coming from. For my friends that just want a nice dog to jog with, maybe do some hiking, and crash on the couch, adopting makes the most sense for them.

I’ve never seen anyone state categorically that all purebreds are better than all mutts. What I have seen is people stating that in certain situations a purebred can be a better choice, and in other situations a mutt can be a better choice.

For me? A purebred was absolutely the best choice for what I wanted. I am a complete newbie in terms of dog showing and dog sports - I wanted something purpose bred. He is not “better” than my other dog, nor is she “better” than him. However, how they think, how they act, and their abilities are completely different.

Maybe I misunderstood, but do you honestly think people with purebreds are not compassionate?

[trubandloki]

I will start with saying, again, that I have spent lots of years volunteering in various ways at a local shelter. A large shelter with a huge turn over of all kinds of pets. A shelter that imports dogs from out of state from areas of low adoption rates.
I know all about shelter animals, rescue animals and all that over population stuff. I used to hold for euthanasia at the shelter even. You are preaching to the choir on the whole animal over population thing.

Now that we got that out of the way I will again say how I do not agree with your far out there approach to it.

For starters, you might realize the person you quoted says responsible breeders, not just breeders. We all know there are crappy breeders out there, no one wants them to breed. We are talking about responsible breeders here. The type that wants to make their chosen breed better, the type that is active in showing (be it conformation or whatever sport that breed does), the type that takes back a dog when for some reason the person who bought it can not keep it anymore.

@dappled;8617917

The argument that purebreds are somehow “quality” dogs is BS. I’m tired of hearing people say they want a “quality” dog. [/QUOTE]
Why? Why should a person not want a quality dog just like they want a quality horse? Or even a quality car?

@dappled;8617917

At the end of the day, a dog is a dog. They will still be happy to see you when you get home, and they will still give the same amount of love.

If you enjoy doing a sport with your dog you want a dog that is able and known to be good at that sport. Why is that wrong? Not everyone wants Fido just to sit on their couch and wag their tail at them when they get home. Some people like to enjoy doing specific, very specific things with Fido.

[QUOTE=dappled;8617917]Not to mention, reputable shelters go through behavior and temperament tests with each dog they take in, so the “I want to know what I’m getting” argument is just an excuse. You do know what you’re getting, and you have your pick of hundreds of rescue dogs - surely you will be able to find one with the temperament you desire.

This made me (to use your words) roll my eyes back into my head. Good shelters and rescues do their best. They try hard. But they see a ton of animals and have limited time and resources to know exactly what they have. Add that Fido might be acting very differently in a shelter than Fido does in any other situation.
I say this with experience from not only working in the shelter, but teaching dog obedience and adopting from the shelter.
My very human friendly, passed all his tests at the shelter, stray mix terrier thing has the worst resource guarding issues with other dogs I have ever seen. He even guards the water bowl (or I should day he did guard the water bowl).
His adoption had no restrictions, he did not show any signs of having any issues while at the shelter because all the testing did not involve another real live dog.

I guess what I just said in way too many words is, in a lovely imaginary world the shelter is great at always knowing exactly what they are adopting out. In real life things are not so accurate. (Not because they do not try or anything, I give shelter workers a ton of credit. They are just not god like.)

[QUOTE=dappled;8617917]
Shame on parents who “buy” dogs for their children. Teaching my kids about compassion and giving an animal in need a home is far more important to me than being able to parade around “quality” purebred dog.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing wrong with buying a good quality dog from a good breeder as long as they are then taught to take proper care of it.

[dappled]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8618042]
I will start with saying, again, that I have spent lots of years volunteering in various ways at a local shelter. A large shelter with a huge turn over of all kinds of pets. A shelter that imports dogs from out of state from areas of low adoption rates.
I know all about shelter animals, rescue animals and all that over population stuff. I used to hold for euthanasia at the shelter even. You are preaching to the choir on the whole animal over population thing.

Now that we got that out of the way I will again say how I do not agree with your far out there approach to it.

For starters, you might realize the person you quoted says responsible breeders, not just breeders. We all know there are crappy breeders out there, no one wants them to breed. We are talking about responsible breeders here. The type that wants to make their chosen breed better, the type that is active in showing (be it conformation or whatever sport that breed does), the type that takes back a dog when for some reason the person who bought it can not keep it anymore.

Why? Why should a person not want a quality dog just like they want a quality horse? Or even a quality car?

If you enjoy doing a sport with your dog you want a dog that is able and known to be good at that sport. Why is that wrong? Not everyone wants Fido just to sit on their couch and wag their tail at them when they get home. Some people like to enjoy doing specific, very specific things with Fido.

This made me (to use your words) roll my eyes back into my head. Good shelters and rescues do their best. They try hard. But they see a ton of animals and have limited time and resources to know exactly what they have. Add that Fido might be acting very differently in a shelter than Fido does in any other situation.
I say this with experience from not only working in the shelter, but teaching dog obedience and adopting from the shelter.
My very human friendly, passed all his tests at the shelter, stray mix terrier thing has the worst resource guarding issues with other dogs I have ever seen. He even guards the water bowl (or I should day he did guard the water bowl).
His adoption had no restrictions, he did not show any signs of having any issues while at the shelter because all the testing did not involve another real live dog.

I guess what I just said in way too many words is, in a lovely imaginary world the shelter is great at always knowing exactly what they are adopting out. In real life things are not so accurate. (Not because they do not try or anything, I give shelter workers a ton of credit. They are just not god like.)

There is nothing wrong with buying a good quality dog from a good breeder as long as they are then taught to take proper care of it.[/QUOTE]

Agree to disagree.

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618057]
Agree to disagree. :([/QUOTE]

But why? Not trying to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious.

Dogs are not all the same and and not equally interchangeable. How is wanting a dog that matches your requirements a bad thing?

[dappled]

[QUOTE=EKLay;8618096]
But why? Not trying to be argumentative, but I am genuinely curious.

Dogs are not all the same and and not equally interchangeable. How is wanting a dog that matches your requirements a bad thing?[/QUOTE]

I feel like this is a hard thing to discuss without arguing, because people tend to have very polar opinions and be rather stuck to them.

But, in short, I guess I’m of the opinion that certain dogs aren’t “better” than others. To me, dogs are dogs, and one is just as deserving as the next, regardless of its breeding.

[Sabino]

I own Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. From breeders who breed specifically for HUNTING dogs. I don’t want a show dog, I don’t want a just a pet quality dog, I want a hunting phenom. Can I pick one of those up at a shelter? Possibly. Can I get one through a Chessie rescue? Possibly. But with the known demeanor of Chessies, that is not where I’m going to find my next one. They are known to be a standoffish and potentially aggressive breed. I’d rather buy a pup and raise it to be a good canine citizen and have many people tell me they didn’t like Chessies until they met my dogs.

Why would I take that chance as opposed to buying my next dog from a RESPONSIBLE breeder who is breeding dogs to hunt? And then I can raise them to be good people friendly dogs as well? If you had your way, dappled, we wouldn’t have different breeds who do different jobs, we would just have a bunch of mutts. Which is fine, if that’s what you are looking for. But if you want a dog that does a specific job, that doesn’t work.

[EKLay]

If I may, are you using “better” for intrinsic value or for suitability? I don’t think my purebred is “better” than my adoptee, but he is more suited for what I want to do.

Do dog sports/showing factor into this at all for you?

And I do appreciate the discussion, hearing why people hold their opinions is fascinating to me.

[dappled]

When people say “quality,” I hear “better.” All this justifying breeders by saying people just want a “quality” dog, on and on, I just hear… “this is a superior dog,” which I do not believe at all.

FWIW, I did dabble in agility with my last dog (not extremely competitively, just for fun and because she excelled at it), who was a rescue mutt.

I think dog sports can be fun, but I think showing is kind of ridiculous. And again, perpetuation of breeding for the sake of breeding. But that’s just my opinion.

[S1969]

@EKLay;8618133

If I may, are you using “better” for intrinsic value or for suitability? I don’t think my purebred is “better” than my adoptee, but he is more suited for what I want to do.

Do dog sports/showing factor into this at all for you?

Absolutely - this is the crux of the issue. A lab might be a “better” pet (as in more suitable) for a family than a Chow Chow. Not too many people are going to argue with this example.

Genes absolutely make a huge difference for dog sports/hunting - I have a dog that can hunt. But if I wanted a hunting dog (for fun/food, or hunting competition) even I would look for a dog from a different breeding program. And possibly of a different breed, depending on the kind of hunting (cold weather waterfowl versus upland game? Heck yes, the breed matters!)

Just like the breed and breeding matter if you’re considering endurance riding versus dressage.

Do I think my show dog is a “better” pet than a rescue dog or shelter dog? No, I don’t. Many of my friends with “show” or intentionally bred dogs also have rescues. And some have mutts from the pound, too. They are all good…but not necessarily all good at the same things.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618150]
I think dog sports can be fun, but I think showing is kind of ridiculous. And again, perpetuation of breeding for the sake of breeding. But that’s just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I think showing for the sake of showing can be ridiculous. Showing a dog at a national level with $250K behind it doesn’t make it any more conformationally correct.

But showing to prove conformation has a purpose in maintaining a breed. Otherwise, they would eventually all change over time - which makes it difficult to use the breed standard as a predictor for temperament and suitability.

[EKLay]

[QUOTE=S1969;8618157]
Absolutely - this is the crux of the issue. A lab might be a “better” pet (as in more suitable) for a family than a Chow Chow. Not too many people are going to argue with this example.

Genes absolutely make a huge difference for dog sports/hunting - I have a dog that can hunt. But if I wanted a hunting dog (for fun/food, or hunting competition) even I would look for a dog from a different breeding program. And possibly of a different breed, depending on the kind of hunting (cold weather waterfowl versus upland game? Heck yes, the breed matters!)

Just like the breed and breeding matter if you’re considering endurance riding versus dressage.

Do I think my show dog is a “better” pet than a rescue dog or shelter dog? No, I don’t. Many of my friends with “show” or intentionally bred dogs also have rescues. And some have mutts from the pound, too. They are all good…but not necessarily all good at the same things.[/QUOTE]

Sorry for any confusion - I missed my quote and the question was intended for dappled. I do appreciate your post though, and I think we’re on the same page.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=EKLay;8618188]
Sorry for any confusion - I missed my quote and the question was intended for dappled. I do appreciate your post though, and I think we’re on the same page.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I’m just agreeing with you. I knew it wasn’t for me.

[shadedingray]

In response to dappled’s opinion on dogs referred to as “quality” being “better”. No one is saying that pups from a responsible breeder are less or more deserving of a home than a shelter/rescue dog. The “quality” comes into play when you are looking for specific traits, personalities, drives, etc. in a breed to do a specific job. In the case of dog sport, I’d like to work my dogs in schutzhund, PSA, ringsport, etc. These are sports dominated by herding breeds: German Shepherds, Malinois, Dutch Shepherds, etc. It is VERY rare to find a dog in a shelter or rescue that is capable of participating in these sports as badly bred dogs, while still deserving of a soft place to land, are not suitable in temperament for these sports.

Well bred dogs do not take homes away from shelter dogs. If owners who would like to compete their dogs can not have the dog that is suitable for that particular job, they can just as easily not want to own a dog at all. This leaves that same shelter dog without a home whether or not someone purchases from a breeder.

In reference to temperament testing, I don’t think one test done by a rescue or shelter is enough to be 100% sure of any dog’s temperament. There are so many factors, triggers, situations that could affect the results of a test done by a rescue, through no fault of theirs. They’re doing the best they can in the environment and time period they have available for each animal needing testing.

[Foxtrot_s]

Why the coyness about naming your breed of dogs by posters here?
I’m reading with mixed feelings and strongly disagree with many posters who don’t seem to live in the real world.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8618273]
Why the coyness about naming your breed of dogs by posters here?
I’m reading with mixed feelings and strongly disagree with many posters who don’t seem to live in the real world.[/QUOTE]

Whose being coy? Most of us are the same people who post all the time on purebred dog threads; I can probably name everyone else’s breed. But mine are Brittanys, in case I didn’t mention it earlier on this thread.

[Incantation]

[QUOTE=dappled;8618150]
When people say “quality,” I hear “better.” All this justifying breeders by saying people just want a “quality” dog, on and on, I just hear… “this is a superior dog,” which I do not believe at all.[/QUOTE]

Shelter dogs can be fine companions, or they may come with a ton of baggage. My mother adopted a Shih Tzu. Best little dog in the world, except he suffers from separation anxiety.

She adopted another as a companion to him, and had to return him the next day - extreme fear aggression that they couldn’t adequately access at the shelter. The poor dog had spent most of it’s life in a crate, and could not handle the real world.

The third one she brought home was wonderful, but was half blind from PRA, and had even worse separation anxiety than the first. She lasted only a few months. She was lost because of severe arthritis, which was likely the result of her horrid conformation, and could not be adequately controlled due to kidney failure.

I know my well bred dog will never suffer from PRA, CMR, or DM. There is no history of epilepsy in her lines, and every generation was health tested based on what tests were available at the time (her breeder got her first Mastiff in 1974). That doesn’t guarantee she will never have a health issue, but it stacks the deck in her favor.

[rockonxox]

Mutt boxer/shepherd/what have you intelligent agility lover, Mutt terrier thing psycho, and American Bulldog. I have talked with the shelters in my area and very very rarely do they have American Bulldogs. I absolutely ADORE my boy, whom I got as a 4 month old, and would not be opposed to purchasing in the future. I have always been adamant that I will do nothing but adopt my dogs… but then I met this guy. And then I found a few other ABD’s in the area. I’m not saying I wouldn’t adopt if I could, but if I ran across a reputable breeder with puppies available (knowing that there are no ABD’s in a shelter) then heck yes I’d buy.

[Houndhill]

I’m sorry, but saying “a dog is a dog” is as silly as saying “a horse is a horse”.

I have owned my particular breed of dog for 46 years, and have exhibited in conformation and obedience, and now judge, and yes have bred a limited number of litters.

None of the people who have my puppies would have otherwise gone to their local animal shelter or rescue if mine had not been available. Some would not even have gone to another line within my breed. I have had a number of other breeds, mostly as “rescue” situations, and while I loved them dearly, they in no way took the place of my chosen breed.

I feel you may not really understand the passion of those who are devoted to a particular breed. Selective breeding has greatly changed the characteristics of dogs, a species which has the most “genetic plasticity” of any other animal. That means we have size variations from chihuahua to Great Dane, huge variations on physical morphology, but also in behavior and psychological/personality constellations.

Some people have a distinct preference for particular breeds because they prefer these physical and behavioral traits, and feel that “a dog is a dog” does not really work for them.

If I could not have my chosen breed, I am not certain that I would have any dog. If I did, it would not be the same…I might just have cats!

Just as people prefer certain breeds of horses for what they do with them or how they live with them, the same is true of dog preference. I am sure there are some people who have “grade horses” or do activities where it does not matter the breed or type of horse they own and choose to spend their time and money on, and who feel “a horse is a horse”, but not everyone feels this way. I think it is equally unfair to expect everyone to desire to own any and all dogs.