Dutch harness horse drama. Update major mare/ foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782 Update Kate Shearer responds post 1930 Nov 25/23

[Scribbler]

I can’t find the original post to zombie resurrect. So starting new. A year or two ago someone started a thread complaining about an American breeder who was creating DHH but marketing them as Dutch WB, which wasn’t strictly speaking untrue, but the horses had flat croups and harness movement, not really dressage perfection.

Long conversation ensued on merits of DHH, but it also became evident the breeder was a drama magnet. I think she was never nsmed but I managed to put together enough details to identify her and follow her on SM to see what the scoop was.

So many red flags. Breeder had mares and foals scattered across the Southwest and Midwest. Resultant drama about unpaid bills and mares going hungry. Worked as a braider for breed shows, much cursing of clients who cancelled. Vague posting about folks who done her wrong. Most recently she is reporting some kind of scuffle with a drunk at a barn in Ocala that has led to her having charges of assault and battery laid against him.

Anyhow, wondering if anyone has been following this dumpster fire?

[SusanO]

I think I know who you are referencing. No, I do not know her but have seen ads she used to post on Warmbloods for Sale. Some of the rest sounds familiar except I have not heard about unpaid bills, etc. My computer died and I got locked out of my Facebook groups so I am not up to date on much of anything in the warmblood world these days.

[anon68314200]

I would love to have a name, if you happened to feel inclined to PM it. I have a KWPN-NA, very much harness type. His sire was Sandokan.

[NaturallyHappy]

Actually, I would, too. I’m not on Facebook so…

[Warmblood1]

Maybe part of the confusion is that KWPN has multiple breeding directions including harness (DHH), gelders blood and dressage/jumping. They have even began experimenting crossing PRE and PSL mares with approved KWPN stallions. All of these, including the PRE/PSL crosses, would still be considered a “Dutch warmblood” under the umbrella of KWPN.

That said, I have not yet seen this dumpster fire.

[Mersidoats]

@Warmblood1

Maybe part of the confusion is that KWPN has multiple breeding directions including harness (DHH), gelders blood and dressage/jumping. They have even began experimenting crossing PRE and PBL mares with approved KWPN stallions. All of these, including the PRE/PBL crosses, would still be considered a “Dutch warmblood” under the umbrella of KWPN.

That said, I have not yet seen this dumpster fire.

Say what? Those are very different horses. And I do love me a good Iberian, but a WB/Iberian cross has a 50% chance of coming out looking like a donkey. I’ve known a few and some and nice, some are…strange. Are they hoping for something they can breed back to a WB stallion in the second generation?

[ASB_Stars]

In my area, we have a number of DHH stallions that are bred to a small number of DHH mares, but also to Standardbred mares, ASB mares, and more. There are catalogued sales in the area for horses, and there also seems to be a major group in Indiana, and some in Ohio. Occasionally, I will see a really nice DHH in front of a buggy, as happened on Saturday. Black with four whites and a blaze, and a lovely oily mover.

[Arlomine]

The KWPN has a history of careful, innovative breeding, which has resulted in an extremely successful sport horse created in very few generations. They will infuse a bit of a desired inherited trait into the main gene pool if it moves the breed in the direction they want. They are rigorous in their culling.

A recent article published by the KWP stated that there are qualities they wish to bring from the cross, primarily using Lusitanos, including improved acceptance of the bridle, the ability to be hot…but still “biddable”, and of course the propensity for collection.
It will be interesting To see if this will be a dead end or a smart move.

[Warmblood1]

@Mersidoats

@Warmblood1

Maybe part of the confusion is that KWPN has multiple breeding directions including harness (DHH), gelders blood and dressage/jumping. They have even began experimenting crossing PRE and PBL mares with approved KWPN stallions. All of these, including the PRE/PBL crosses, would still be considered a “Dutch warmblood” under the umbrella of KWPN.

That said, I have not yet seen this dumpster fire.

Say what? Those are very different horses. And I do love me a good Iberian, but a WB/Iberian cross has a 50% chance of coming out looking like a donkey. I’ve known a few and some and nice, some are…strange. Are they hoping for something they can breed back to a WB stallion in the second generation?

There are a lot of positives attributes to Spanish horses that a lot of WBs could use - their temperament, trainability, and work ethic, the collectibility and talent for passage/piaffe, their lesser incidents of OCD and likely related, their slower growth overall, etc. The PRE and PBL has also evolved quite a bit with modern breeding directions that make them more suitable for the cross. There was actually a PRE/WB stallion evaluated with this year’s recent KWPN stallion inspection but I’m not sure if he made it through approvals. Anyways, KWPN is a registry that includes a lot of different breeding directions. You can learn more about them here:

https://www.kwpn.org/kwpn-horse/selection-and-breedingprogram/breeding/breeding-directions

[athelas]

I 100% thought this post was going to be about drama that went down in one of the FB groups about ADHHA turning the breed into Saddlebreds…anywho. I am curious who she is…

I have a DHH/Morgan cross who is just wonderful but I do tease him about his neck coming straight out of the top of his shoulders (it doesn’t really unless of course he sees something he’s considering spooking at and suddenly shoots up to 18 hands).

[CanteringCarrot]

@Warmblood1

@Mersidoats

@Warmblood1

Maybe part of the confusion is that KWPN has multiple breeding directions including harness (DHH), gelders blood and dressage/jumping. They have even began experimenting crossing PRE and PBL mares with approved KWPN stallions. All of these, including the PRE/PBL crosses, would still be considered a “Dutch warmblood” under the umbrella of KWPN.

That said, I have not yet seen this dumpster fire.

Say what? Those are very different horses. And I do love me a good Iberian, but a WB/Iberian cross has a 50% chance of coming out looking like a donkey. I’ve known a few and some and nice, some are…strange. Are they hoping for something they can breed back to a WB stallion in the second generation?

There are a lot of positives attributes to Spanish horses that a lot of WBs could use - their temperament, trainability, and work ethic, the collectibility and talent for passage/piaffe, their lesser incidents of OCD and likely related, their slower growth overall, etc. The PRE and PBL has also evolved quite a bit with modern breeding directions that make them more suitable for the cross. There was actually a PRE/WB stallion evaluated with this year’s recent KWPN stallion inspection but I’m not sure if he made it through approvals. Anyways, KWPN is a registry that includes a lot of different breeding directions. You can learn more about them here:

https://www.kwpn.org/kwpn-horse/selection-and-breedingprogram/breeding/breeding-directions

What is a PBL? I know of PSL, but not PBL.

[Warmblood1]

Sorry, it’s a typo or possibly autocorrect. PSL aka the Lusitano.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Warmblood1

Sorry, it’s a typo or possibly autocorrect. PSL aka the Lusitano.

I thought so, but wanted to ask because sometimes I’m a bit out of the loop and I wasn’t sure if I didn’t know of something new or different lol

I am diehard Iberian (but have owned WB’s, KWPN, coincidentally) and have mixed feelings about the crosses. I have seen one that I thought came out pretty good though. I have no desire to cross a PRE with a WB, I’ll just take the PRE

I think WB breeding got a bit extreme in some cases where the focus was on movement and looking extravagant. Temperament, some functionality, and collection were sort of neglected in favor of that big movement, and now breeds such as the PRE and PSL are being looked to in order to remedy those issues, IMO.

Granted, wanting to improve the breed or your breeding program isn’t a bad thing, but I sort of feel like the “short comings” were self made and now they’re looking to undo them.

I’ve known some more medium sized WB’s with a more compact uphill build with modest movement but the ability to collect, extend, and most importantly work well for their rider but they sort of fell out of favor as being “old style” or not as flashy.

[Warmblood1]

No… that’s just me talking about a breed that doesn’t exist… Haha.

The WB x PRE/Lus cross has evoked a lot of mixed emotions, for sure. In theory, the idea is good but whether or not theory will manifest into actual breeding is the question.

I’ve seen a lot of really nice foals but few under saddle. I’m really interested in how they will translate under saddle. KWPN’s books have evolved to include a lot of German lines and I think the Trakehner has a good deal of potential with the cross using stock with higher blood. The foals I’ve seen have been somewhere in the middle as far as extremes of each breed, I think that’s also an important component - using correct stock that doesn’t have the extreme characteristics of each breed.

That said, I do agree that sometimes we are chasing our tails trying to correct certain aspects of breeding. The long gaskins to produce extreme hock action is a trend that I really do not want to reproduce in WBs for example. I see it in PRE/PSL as well. I’d much rather use older WB lines instead. The older lines do not have the wow factor that some of the 4 and 5 year olds have using more modern stallions, but the older lines produce the wow movement and longevity under saddle IMO. It’s whether or not people want to put in the time and work to get that from the older lines IMO.

[ASB_Stars]

I know someone who imported a WB Iberian cross from Europe. He’s doing third level, and cleaning up. He’s really a lovely horse with a nice mind. She then bought another one, and I don’t know much about that one. Apparently, someone over there knows how to do this right.

I think that it depends on what you are looking for, and if you have a clue as to how to get there. Garbage in=garbage out.

[Scribbler]

I’ve seen a few thoughtful WB/PRE or TB/PRE crosses that were very nice indeed. I think of it as a very good cross., as is QH/PRE (Aztecs). However the Iberian dominates and they are very typey. You see Iberian when you look at them, not WB or TB.

[Scribbler]

So the person on FB recently posted that her FB feed is public on purpose (in the context of “haters” following her posts). So I think it’s OK and not doxxing to put her name up here. I don’t know if you need a FB account to read public pages these days. I don’t think so, I can go on FB without signing in.

Kate Shearer. Not sure where she’s based. Had broodmares in Oklahoma but I think not her own property.

[SpicyPRE]

that is who I was thinking of. I found her advertising to be deceptive.

[Warmblood1]

Maybe I’m not looking at the right thing or I’m missing ads but I was expecting way worse. Maybe her personal life is a wreck but she is breeding some nice jumper lines. They are KWPN registered. I don’t really see any DHH lines, just one broodmare for sale as a riding horse and another DHH stallion being used that I actually really like.

[SusanO]

I used to be pretty skeptical of the crosses too ( PRE/Lusi X WB) because a lot of them turned out looking like eggbeaters. I think the criteria was “Will I get a palomino or buckskin?”. And then I started seeing some nice ones. There was one at Iron Spring Farm for sale that I am in love with. Snappy hind leg of the PRE but the elasticity of a WB. Unfortunately, I need a riding horse and she is now a broodmare. I think they are not so unusual in Spain and they are registered as CDE. And yes, the KWPN is evaluating the cross and some can be registered Register A in KWPN. I have seen some others for sale lately that I would love to have but my riding is just not up to par these days for a green horse.
But back to the thread. That is who I saw on FB. She seemed to have horses for sale all over the place. I thought some of the crosses didn’t make sense but who am I to make that conclusion.