Opinions on DHH crosses for jumping?

[Edre]

Schockemohle’s frozen contract is perhaps one of the most restrictive in the market. It’s a relatively “new” thing (4 years old now? maybe? …time is a lie…) but clearly designed to restrict people who were splitting doses and getting multiple pregnancies from them. Under the terms of their new contract, you must either send the used straws back (or clearly photograph the straws post-use).

They also state that they will re-invoice a separate stud fee for each embryo, when ICSI is being done (which may only be done with prior agreement).

You’ll see people who look for Schockemohle stallions’ frozen that pre-date these contracts because there’s quite a few restrictions/limitations. SES has the PS contract hosted if you are curious.

eta: to my knowledge, I don’t think anyone else’s contracts are quite this restrictive, but I haven’t really paid attention to frozen in the last few years so I’m not entirely certain if some of the big studs didn’t follow in PS’s footsteps - it would not surprise me if some had.

[Tha_Ridge]

I think this is correct in warmbloods, but most other registries, e.g., Quarter Horses, have contracts that are more tightly restricted in this regard. (I’ve learned a lot from watching Katie Van Sylke’s TikToks and reels post-purchase of VS Code Red—she had one on this exact topic.)

[K_VanOlst]

@Tha_Ridge

I think this is correct in warmbloods

Right, I know other breeds tend to have more restrictive contracts, but since she’s breeding warmbloods I was drawing on my limited knowledge of warmblood breeding lol

[MHM]

@Edre

Schockemohle’s frozen contract is perhaps one of the most restrictive in the market.

It’s probably a pretty steep uphill climb to try to outsmart Schockemohle in almost any aspect of the horse business. He has had a LOT of practice over the years.

[Tha_Ridge]

Oh, yeah, I wasn’t challenging you or saying you were wrong, but just pointing out that warmblood breeders seem largely behind the eight-ball here which allows “breeders” like KS to get away with what they do.

[Scribbler]

Around post 273 on the other thread, people are discussing this issue.

Dutch harness horse drama. Update: drama has resumed Dec 27 see post 122. Update major mare/foal neglect Nov 2023 post 1782

I can’t find the original post to zombie resurrect. So starting new. A year or two ago someone started a thread complaining about an American breeder who was creating DHH but marketing them as Dutch WB, which wasn’t strictly speaking untrue, but the horses had flat croups and harness movement, not really dressage perfection. Long conversation ensued on merits of DHH, but it also became evident the breeder was a drama magnet. I think she was never nsmed but I managed to put together enough detai…

[skydy]

@fargaloo1

You can be successful without being an a-hole.

After seeing the photos of these poor animals it is my opinion that Kate/Kathryn Shearer is the latter. She certainly is not the former.

[skydy]

Yes, the breeder pretty much recreated the damsire in that one, only an undersized version.

I have a feeling that the foals were not receiving proper (if any) care from a farrier. As you know, some issues can be prevented or at least managed by early intervention. Of course being out behind is not one of them, but the tendency toward cow hocks, seen in the earlier photos of the emaciated foal, has now become a very obvious issue.

I wonder if some expert rasping could have helped keep the issue from becoming so pronounced, or do you think it would have ended up like this no matter what?

[enjoytheride]

My apologies for upsetting you by typing quickly. Despite my using the incorrect term, I still stand that I have been to MANY low end auctions and grade foals of unknown parentage sell for more than the previous poster said and people will take a chance on these foals based on their famous sire lines DESPITE their current conditions in the pictures. Especially considering she’s doing (or at least says she’s doing) a farm dispersal sale so she will likely hire a company to do so and I assume will have a reserve as she doesn’t seem to be the type to let horses go for less than what she thinks they’re worth. She’s not going to get what she has them listed for, but she’s going to get at least 4 figures. I also see ZERO evidence that the horses have been “seized” The reality is that animal control does little to nothing when there is hay, grain, and water on the property, EVEN if the horses are malnurished.

[fordtraktor]

@skydy

I have a feeling that the foals were not receiving proper (if any) care from a farrier. As you know, some issues can be prevented or at least managed by early intervention. Of course being out behind is not one of them, but the tendency toward cow hocks, seen in the earlier photos of the emaciated foal, has now become a very obvious issue.

I wonder if some expert rasping could have helped keep the issue from becoming so pronounced, or do you think it would have ended up like this no matter what?

Honestly, some degree of cow hocks in a foal do not bother me or indicate a long term issue. Most foals are cow hocked at various stages of their growth. It is quite normal for them to go a little cow hocked before a growth spurt.

What you see in these pictures is extreme, the hocks are pretty much touching. Yes, this should have been addressed with trims every 4 weeks from birth. Hopefully this baby is still young enough to benefit from therapeutic trimming. It is also possible muscle atrophy is also making the problem appear worse. With some luck it will look like a different horse in 6 weeks.

[alyssaequestrian]

Someone posted the foal from the original viral post in May. It’s clear it was malnutritioned then.

But check out the feet on the mare in the background. Apparently it’s recip mare from EMC. It was in their contract “not to do her feet” apparently because she was dangerous. THOSE feet are cruelty, regardless of the danger.

[dags]

@alyssaequestrian

It was in their contract “not to do her feet” apparently because she was dangerous.

That validity of that statement was seriously questioned by another breeder later in that post but still, EMC is not coming out well in all of this IMO.

[MHM]

Eeeep.

Wow. That’s a lot in one picture.

[alyssaequestrian]

I also would have a hard time believing that is in their contract, but I find some concern they would continue to send their mares to this party knowing they are in this condition.

Some horses are truly dangerous for the farrier, so would not be surprised if that fact was in the contract or maybe not to put shoes on her, but there are ways to trim “dangerous” horses…

[Scribbler]

OMG. Weight and hooves are out of some backyard CL hoarder in the boonies.

[alyssaequestrian]

Someone commented that “sometimes the recip mares are difficult to deal with but feeding them is easy” and couldn’t put it better.

[MHM]

@alyssaequestrian

Some horses are truly dangerous for the farrier, so would not be surprised if that fact was in the contract or maybe not to put shoes on her, but there are ways to trim “dangerous” horses…

I’m wondering how the mares can be civilized enough for the amount of vet work involved in the reproductive part, but not civilized enough to get their feet trimmed.

[MorganSercu]

The mare is terrible shape overall. Too darn thin and clearly it STILL wasn’t enough for the foal.

[CanteringCarrot]

@MHM

@alyssaequestrian

Some horses are truly dangerous for the farrier, so would not be surprised if that fact was in the contract or maybe not to put shoes on her, but there are ways to trim “dangerous” horses…

I’m wondering how the mares can be civilized enough for the amount of vet work involved in the reproductive part, but not civilized enough to get their feet trimmed.

That’s a good point. You can’t just sedate the bajeezus out of the mare for everything.

I dunno, EMS is coming out of this looking not so great. I certainly would not support/use them.

[firecracker]

@MHM

I’m wondering how the mares can be civilized enough for the amount of vet work involved in the reproductive part, but not civilized enough to get their feet trimmed.

This!!! Zoomed in on that foot, because wow:

There are ways to get feet trimmed when you need to (sedatives, twitch, stocks, etc)… it’s downright cruel to just leave feet in that condition…

Edited to add: The one recip mare I’ve known (leased from a facility that provided recips) was a nightmare to trim. But we did it, even though it was an absolute ordeal, because it was the right thing to do for the horse’s sake.