How does one sell a mare that is not theirs?
Aren’t the embryo transplant mares actually owned by someone else?
How does one sell that?
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Ok… this is what I originally assumed was the case. But then people on thread said that multiple of Kate’s mares have unknown dam pedigrees, it are possibly hackney, then someone on another thread said that they were positive offspring from Ivanka were recorded in the foal book at a keuring. So maybe the mare is a full KWPN DHH with a known pedigree. It’s all a confusing mess and it’s understandable people are suspicious of Kate’s breeding program and trying to make sense of what the goss asks actually are.
But just for the sake of argument, KWPN-NA website does specifically say that owners of ADHHA registered mates can send in the papers for review. If the foals of these mares are always entered into Register B… why are they reviewing the papers of ADHHA registered mares?
Understood. Terminology I used in a previous post was incorrect. Is it correct to say that it is hypothetically possible for a filly out of a KWPN harness bred mare who has 50% Hackney or American Saddlebred in her pedigree, to be recorded in the Foalbook as a riding type … if her sire is an approved riding type stallion?
Doesn’t this mean that this filly (who possibly has a pedigree that is 25% Hackney or Saddlebred) could POTENTIALLY be entered in the studbook later, as a riding type mare?
The list includes the actual donor mares, and none are noted as in foal (but who knows). They are all listed as sound and broke to ride. I don’t know what happens to the recipient mares carrying the 2024 foals, especially if they are leased from a vet.
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You can certainly register an ADHHA mare with KWPN and that would potentially let her offspring get higher papers. the KWPN-NA also inspects ADHHA mares for studbook on a case by case basis, depending on the pedigree. So that is probably what that is meant to say.
And yes, if a mare (even if she is 50% Hackney or Saddlebred) is bred to a riding type stallion, the offspring MUST go riding type. There is no option for it to be registered as Harness type. This filly can be looked at in the chosen breeding direction when she is 3 or older at a keuring and potentially enter the studbook.
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FWIW, Kate’s mares all have fully recorded pedigrees. None of them are draft crosses. Some may have Hackney, I’d have to take a closer look, but that’s extremely common in DHH breeding. But they all have DNA verified and recorded pedigrees on both dam and sire side.
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Thanks for clarifying KWPN studbook rules, what the status is of Kate’s mares, etc.
It’s definitely a confusing situation and differs from rules in other warmblood registries, which do not have harness horse books.
I’m somewhat confused at folks expressing surprise that a horse with Saddlebred ancestry might be considered a “riding type” horse.
- The name of the breed is a hint as to their use.
- If you ever get the opportunity to ride a well-trained Saddlebred, take it–they are a blast.
Yes, I know that the breed is not directed primarily at producing h/j or dressage horses, though as in other “non-traditional” breeds, some individuals excel, but that does not mean they aren’t bred to be riding horses.
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It’s not that I’m surprised it’s a riding type horse - and I’m sure there are wonderful Saddlebreds.
It’s a matter of the pedigree and the fact that a horse that is 25% Saddlebred could POTENTIALLY make it into the KWPN studbook. That’s surprising to me.
Again… it might just be me, and that I am more familiar with German Warmblood studbook rules… which are different. Even their “open book registries” would have different rules on this because of pedigree requirements.
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Outside of not having a harness breeding direction, how do they differ substantially?
This made me smile. Thanks.
I’m disappointed by this. I was hoping the horses would have a better chance of selling if auctioned by a reputable auction company. Now people have to deal with KS directly. Plus 40k got a colt or filly? I don’t think she is leaving breeding IMO. That would take selflessness. So frustrating.
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IIRC, it was Gene LaCroix, Jr, and his brother (whose name escapes me). They were very well known Arabian trainers and their father Eugene LaCroix was one of the first - maybe THE first - to import Arabians from Poland. They imported among others the very famous Bask (in 1962 or thereabouts) and really helped fuel the craze for Arabians back in the 70’s, holding lavish, star-studded auctions and presentations at their Lasma Arabian operation in Scottsdale AZ.
The LaCroix brothers either created the National Show Horse registry themselves or were otherwise instrumental in its creation when they jumped on the bandwagon for crossing Arabians and American Saddlebred Horses to get very fancy driving horses that could clean up in the Half-Arabian fine harness classes. That evolved into the NSH registry.
I believe they also at one time became infatuated with Dutch Harness Horses and started doing some interbreeding with Arabians, Saddlebreds, and DHH.
I am going way, way back in my memory, so someone please correct me if I am wrong.
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Was his brother Ray?
yes
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Stallions throw, mares drop.
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Okay? lol
I’m just here to clear up rumors and misinformation. I am not a breeder. Though in my years of working in this industry I’ve never heard the term “drop” when it comes to color.
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Mares drop foals. They don’t “throw” anything in terms of breeding. I don’t know what the term would be with regard to passing along color. Maybe it’s “passing along color,” lol. But it’s definitely not throwing.
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Well it’s a good thing I’m not a breeder and don’t stand a stallion then 
It very much doesn’t matter in terms of what I do.
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Imagine their surprise when they attend a main ring show with 2k entries and discover it’s really a thing.
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She gets the mares in foal and then tries to sell in utero, at weaning, at yearling, at 2 years old… I don’t think she necessarily breeds to order for people
As far as the complex KWPN registry, it’s not so much that Kate’s horses aren’t or can’t be registered. It’s that they are generally the wrong type of horse for the job she wants to sell them into.
We have a comparable situation with QH. They don’t run performance directions formally, but there are big conformation and athletic differences between a Hancock ranch horse, a fast cutter, a halter horse, and a high-TB race QH or QH hunter/jumper.
Imagine someone getting QH halter horse or Western Pleasure mares, breeding to a cutting stallion, and then trying to sell the foals as high dollar cutting prospects.
It’s also interesting to learn about the multiple types under the KWPN banner. I have certainly seen a fairly high dollar imported Dutch Warmblood that looked quite drafty to me, that must be the Gelders in there While others are more like regular WB. On the other hand, the Oldenburgs I have known look more like really nice TB that have just been enlarged all over, height and bone. Makes sense knowing that Oldenburg USA is quite lenient on TB mares.
Though I feel like most of the WB that come through my “low end of nice horses” world are from back yard or small breeders, and they end up getting registered in whatever works at the time, so knowing the stallion doesn’t mean you know the registry. Also even if these small breeders are sourcing Big Name frozen semen, if they are breeding to random TB or grade mares, you don’t necessarily see the “type” come through.
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Sorry, I think you answered a question that I was not really asking, my questions were based on your post about her selling everything right now, nothing to do with what she has been doing all this time.
Her herd sale includes things that are due next year, so one would assume she is wanting those mares off her books now too.
J.M. Dickinson imported Polish Arabians in the 1930’s.
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