Dutch rider Adelinde Cornelissen eliminated in dressage: Horse's mouth bleeding.

[betonbill]

Just skimmed many of the previous pages, but I’m curious. These pictures, I gather, were taken from one source (German) only. Well, since I gather that the warmups are not totally excluded from view here in Kentucky, where are all the other pictures of extreme RK during subsequent warmups?

Maybe I missed it, but where were the pictures of abuse by Anky and company from the last few Las Vegas shows? If only from this one competition, perhaps someone has an agenda?

Agree that one picture taken at one moment in time out of context to the actual event may be misleading–or not. Just depends on what the other 25-30 photos from the same work out show.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=spirithorse;5128583]
" I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level."

What do you think, that we all ride merrygoround horses or ponies.
I personally have ridden ‘big’ horses, including my own 17.3 hand-1700lb TB.
It does not take the extreme pressures being demonstrated in dressage at WEG to ride classical dressage.
It does not take the hyperflexions demonstrated at WE to ride classical dressage.[/QUOTE]

Sigh. I think it’s time we all step back, pause, and admit to ourselves that what most of the people who are consistent winnning competitors at this high a level truly aren’t doing “dressage” anymore, at least in the sense of making a horse light, harmonious, a willing participant in the “dance.” When we start saying it takes riding like this to handle a horse that is “that big and powerful and talented,” then we are saying that the rideability objective of dressage is no longer an element. It’s all show - it’s circus - it’s performance and not relevant to traditions such as the SRS and vice versa

Brentina was almost always a “bridesmaid” because, heaven help us, she looked relaxed and harmonious and didn’t display the “brilliance” (i.e., on the edge of explosion) of Salinero, et al.

I and friend have ridden with some pretty distinguished OLGs (G) over the years, and were always told things like, “The correctly trained horse should be easily rideable by anyone with correct basics.” The purpose of “dressage” WAS rideability and enhancing the horse’s gaits. With a little coaching, I could ride my trainer’s 17.2 GP horse without much difficulty. If you did not ride correctly, he didn’t explode or act disobedient or bolt off - he just ignored you (quietly).

So now, we produced horses that naturally have spectacular gaits, and we have to wrestle them into submission, and they are ONLY rideable by the most highly talented, using questionable methods?

Glad I don’t really have FEI aspirations for my horse. He’s a VERY nice mover, though hardly in the class of Totilas, Salinero, et al., but I want a horse that is “easy” - in the sense of being willing and compliant and happy - to ride. He’s young. (Though apparently retarded by national/international standards, being only TL at age 6, coming off a year’s layoff). If we reache 3rd level that will be enough. Anything more is a bonus. But riding like in those pictures? Are we saying Parzival was about to bolt and buck in the WEG warmup/schooling? THAT might justify a “save MY neck” reaction on the part of the rider, but to yank and crank like that as routine “training?” No thanks.

[ridgeback]

Oh you guys are sooooooo dramatic…:lol::lol::lol:

[Sandy_M]

Dramatic? Hardly. At least in my case, I’d say “resigned” is more the description. To me, international dressage has become irrelevant. As it becomes more and more exaggerated in both performance and training, it moves beyond anything I care to maintain an interest in. I am both gratified and dumbfounded that some can remain competitive while riding/training correctly in this era of more! more! more! no matter how the results are obtained.

[system]

[QUOTE=betonbill;5129331]
Just skimmed many of the previous pages, but I’m curious. These pictures, I gather, were taken from one source (German) only. Well, since I gather that the warmups are not totally excluded from view here in Kentucky, where are all the other pictures of extreme RK during subsequent warmups?

Maybe I missed it, but where were the pictures of abuse by Anky and company from the last few Las Vegas shows? If only from this one competition, perhaps someone has an agenda?

Agree that one picture taken at one moment in time out of context to the actual event may be misleading–or not. Just depends on what the other 25-30 photos from the same work out show.[/QUOTE]

There is over seven hours of training and warm-up videos from Kentucky on Theo’s website

[Coreene]

Well, I’ll say it publicly again since I said it before: I think Sjef’s system is fabulous.

[candico]

And how quickly we forget the photos of Dr. Heuschmann, Mr. Anti-RK extraordinaire… I’d rather see video of what the horse was doing just prior to the photos. Like yesterday, when I was turning the stallion around in the cross ties after his ride, he reached for a bite from the bushes and I had to lean back and pull on those reins with all I had and since I was on the ground I could really lean way back AND reach for the sweat scraper to give him a good ole smack… And I’m sure his mouth was open and his eyes might have rolled back, but that won’t even give him pause tomorrow when he tries it again. Or even the horse that just has to rub something off his nose in the middle of your simple twenty meter circle - haven’t you ever had to lean back and haul on the reins for that and no the horse was not worse for wear? Maybe even continued to rub his nose??
I have a horse with serious ADD that can be light as a feather when he is focused, but is convinced that anyone approaching the ring on foot must be coming to give him a carrot so he just totally ignores me and heads straight for them. And I have to haul with all my might and maybe flex his head to his shoulder and his eye might roll back and I might be yelling obscenities, but he will do exactly the same thing when the next person arrives at the ring… And maybe he is not the right horse for me but I’m stuck with him because no one wants an EPSM horse with ADD and besides I still kind of love him…

[equinedriver]

Candico

Obviously you are totally oblivious to the FACT that total near starvation is immeinet at any moment and are NOT dealing with it appropriately LOL.

[Weatherford]

@Sandy M;5129350

Sigh. I think it’s time we all step back, pause, and admit to ourselves that what most of the people who are consistent winnning competitors at this high a level truly aren’t doing “dressage” anymore, at least in the sense of making a horse light, harmonious, a willing participant in the “dance.” When we start saying it takes riding like this to handle a horse that is “that big and powerful and talented,” then we are saying that the rideability objective of dressage is no longer an element. It’s all show - it’s circus - it’s performance and not relevant to traditions such as the SRS and vice versa

Brentina was almost always a “bridesmaid” because, heaven help us, she looked relaxed and harmonious and didn’t display the “brilliance” (i.e., on the edge of explosion) of Salinero, et al.

I and friend have ridden with some pretty distinguished OLGs (G) over the years, and were always told things like, “The correctly trained horse should be easily rideable by anyone with correct basics.” The purpose of “dressage” WAS rideability and enhancing the horse’s gaits. With a little coaching, I could ride my trainer’s 17.2 GP horse without much difficulty. If you did not ride correctly, he didn’t explode or act disobedient or bolt off - he just ignored you (quietly).

So now, we produced horses that naturally have spectacular gaits, and we have to wrestle them into submission, and they are ONLY rideable by the most highly talented, using questionable methods?

Glad I don’t really have FEI aspirations for my horse. He’s a VERY nice mover, though hardly in the class of Totilas, Salinero, et al., but I want a horse that is “easy” - in the sense of being willing and compliant and happy - to ride. He’s young. (Though apparently retarded by national/international standards, being only TL at age 6, coming off a year’s layoff). If we reache 3rd level that will be enough. Anything more is a bonus. But riding like in those pictures? Are we saying Parzival was about to bolt and buck in the WEG warmup/schooling? THAT might justify a “save MY neck” reaction on the part of the rider, but to yank and crank like that as routine “training?” No thanks.

Couldn’t agree more! Which is why, as a breeder, temperament is first with quality second. There are a limited number of top riders, but lots of people who want and should have a NICE horse with good gaits and a fabulous attitude.

[crittertwitter]

I doubt that Parzival was about to bolt and his rider just had to convey her command with clarity and force. Of course, I wasn’t there so I’m sure some will say, “Well how dare you… you don’t know.” Well, of course I don’t know. Just an instinct.

I think it was just what it was… an exercise that some agree with and others are opposed to. I was under the impression it was banned by the FEI, but under what conditions it is sanctioned I don’t know.

Obviously there are varying degrees of uncertainty about whether her training methods are connected to the tongue biting. We will never know for sure.

Nonetheless, I’m sure she was devastated to have come so far with such realistically high expectations, and be forced to stuff them in her tack trunk til next time. It would be hard for anyone. I’m also sure she is also not impervious to the fact that there are controversial photos of her being splashed everywhere. However, if it’s a training method in which she wholeheartedly believes, I wouldn’t imagine the photos and negative commentary would be anything but tabloid hype. (i.e., “Yes, I’m having an affair. So what!”) Again, while the photos are strategically placed, I don’t think they’re misconstrued.

It is clear that the Dutch pairs put out some wonderful Dressage tests. It appeared Parzival would do the same. That gold medalist is quite something to behold.

There’s a lot going on at WEG. A lot to be positive about. Amazing ponies with good, horse loving peops hoping to be good facilitator’s of their pony’s bests.

[AZ_Native]

[QUOTE=Coreene;5129843]
Well, I’ll say it publicly again since I said it before: I think Sjef’s system is fabulous.[/QUOTE]

Yes it’s wonderful . I particulary like the recent video someone posted here of Sjef riding the horse with it’s head nearly attched to the girth. Quite lovely that. The horse really looked like a super ‘’ happy athlete ‘’. I wish I could rememeber what thread it was on so I could repost it here and we could all ooo and ahhh over his ‘’ system ‘’. You could go into detail about the nuances of the video and why it’s such a fabulous system for those of us that aren’t quite getting it

[Equibrit]

Don’t know how to make it work.
http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspot.com/2010/09/sjef-janssen-illustrates-everything-i.html

[BaroquePony]

Posted by Coreene:

Well, I’ll say it publicly again since I said it before: I think Sjef’s system is fabulous.

Just guessing, but I think Sjef is every horse’s worst nightmare :yes:

[AZ_Native]

Thanks.

The link works fine, unfortunately :no:
I have a friend who is at the games. She had no knowledge of the warm up pics as she has been busy with other things. She called me from the warm up area about 2 hours ago and said , after I asked and told her about the pics, a horse she was watching at that moment was being ridden in the fabulous system. They are not hiding it. It was not a US rider, fwiw.

[ZiggyStardust]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;5130487]
Don’t know how to make it work.
http://camera-obscura-billie.blogspot.com/2010/09/sjef-janssen-illustrates-everything-i.html[/QUOTE]

Holy s***. Even if someone could say (1) it’s in slo mo for dramatic effect, and (2) it’s only 18 seconds, the attachment at the girth would still keep the horse in that position purposefully. For the whole ride.

And when you’ve already got the horse’s head strapped down that way, why the f*** do you still need to have the curb shank back so far with pressure? I’m sure he’s very proud of his work. The sight of all those orange jackets in the stands is starting to make me ill. Not that non-NED riders aren’t doing this crap, but NED seems to really embrace the idea of this as a “system”. It taints everything they appear to “accomplish”. Congratulations. It makes me wonder if a child was learning to ride and struggling with posture, would it be a good idea to tie their arms behind their backs for 20-30 min. at a time to get those ligaments around the shoulders and chest nice and stretched out? I suppose this technique could also be used if the child was being naughty. Dual purpose.

FWIW, I have also heard a highly respected dressage professional say literally that Sjef is “the devil”.

[Graymaresrule]

@crittertwitter;5130225

Obviously there are varying degrees of uncertainty about whether her training methods are connected to the tongue biting. We will never know for sure.

.

IMHO if she hadn’t been cranking on the horse’s mouth he wouldn’t have opened it in attempted protest. If he hadn’t opened his mouth he wouldn’t have then accidently closed it on his tongue

[crittertwitter]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;5131084]
IMHO if she hadn’t been cranking on the horse’s mouth he wouldn’t have opened it in attempted protest. If he hadn’t opened his mouth he wouldn’t have then aqccidently closed it on his tongue[/QUOTE]

My theory rolls along the same lines (eta: the biting was related to the ‘work’ being done on the horse’s mouth). I just think we have all stated and restated our opinions and now we’re just dragging it on. Some agree with [your clearly articulated opinion, a trait which comments on this thread have often lacked]; some disagree.

So much for my whimsical effort at Thread Killin’. :lol:

[War_Admiral]

[QUOTE=Coreene;5129843]
Well, I’ll say it publicly again since I said it before: I think Sjef’s system is fabulous.[/QUOTE]

For what discipline? :rolleyes:

[ShannonLee]

Sandy M, why not have FEI aspirations for you and your horse? You say he’s a nice mover, so go for it. Or do you have to have a horse that you are aiming at a Gold medal WEG in order to have FEI aspirations - otherwise it is not worth it? Nobody (not even Sjef) has ever said you have to do RK to do GP. Show these people how to do it right, would you?

You do not have to train in extreme anything to attain good Grand Prix work. Almost all the horses doing GP internationally have not been trained in RK/HF. Pretty much all riders will put their horses deep at times, but it’s not extreme nor abusive. Are you not seeing anything else except these inflammatory pictures???

I LIKE St George magazine, but I definitely believe these pictures were posted with an agenda behind it, and therefore should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Sjef is not a horse’s worst nightmare - there are many horrible things that can be done to a horse, much worse than putting it’s nose to it’s chest. To say this is just inflammatory, and minimizes other horrible abuses that happen all the time.

[ThreeFigs]

Excellent post, ShannonLee.