A rail is pretty standard as a 4 point deduction, michaelwatkins. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Lillie laid down a round that would have been a 95, had the rail down, and got a 91. I’ve watched her ride a lot, she’s fantastic. You seem to have an axe to grind when it comes to the equitation…
Also, IME, the riders with “names” get names because they’ve earned them by riding well and consistently.
Was just looking at the thread where some questioned how Michael scored so high when he had such problems with the cavalettis. Seemed significant from the spectator’s viewpoint I thought. Maybe they were wrong? I suggest you read the whole thread before accosting me and claiming I " have a problem". I freely admit I didn’t watch any if it, but those on this thread who did seemed to think some who got great ribbons had questionable rounds. That’s it. Don’t kill the messenger, shorty! 
I have read the whole thread, in addition to other threads you’ve posted on…
Michael had a bobble at the cavalettis and was bumped down accordingly (I just finished reading an article on Phelps that interviewed the judges and they mentioned that), but then was spectacular on the final day and pulled off the win. Doesn’t seem questionable to me.
For what it is worth, I watched the whole gymnastic phase. Michael’s horse bobbled the first cavaletti which appeared to really shake is confidence for the second set which he cantered, scrambled through a little bit. Michael rode it well, sympathetic but firm. Clearly not a rider issue. You had the sense that if he took the horse to the schooling ring and trotted several sets, horse would be confident again with them. Everything else on the course was lovely. The judges penalized him, but did not crucify him. They seemed to penalize his error less than those that failed to get their horses back before the canter bounces which seemed right given the purpose of the class and the fact that they judging riding, not the prettiness of the round. In the best of circumstances, the two coincide, but not always.
And a shout out to Ms. Toffolon who in the gymnastic round, had one of the nicest goes I think I’ve ever seen. A beautifully ridden round.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7202129]
Also, IME, the riders with “names” get names because they’ve earned them by riding well and consistently.[/QUOTE]
In the same way the Big Name Trainers became Big Names in the first place by producing successful horses and riders. It’s funny how often people seem to forget that part. It’s no surprise that riders and trainers who have been successful in the past have a good shot at repeating those results, since they’ve already proven they know how to get the job done.
Anyone may certainly have an opinion, but I doubt any of the posters on this thread are more qualified to judge the class than the actual judges of the event, particularly two-time Olympic medalist Anne Kursinski.
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7202132]
… I freely admit I didn’t watch any if it, but those on this thread who did seemed to think some who got great ribbons had questionable rounds. That’s it. Don’t kill the messenger, shorty! :)[/QUOTE]
I didn’t watch it either so refrained from offering an opinion of the judging based on opinions or questions of a few posters.
But…it wouldn’t be COTH if a lifetime achievement was congratulated instead of called into question by the armchair set. Although the fact this one admittedly did not even watch the feed is worthy of some sort of year end award…
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7202127]
Perhaps it isn’t a rider issue at all, but a judge issue. And a “name” issue. I think I have seen certain east coast Eq riders names 1000 times in various paid ads in periodicals. And then I read that some of those same names are scoring in the high 80’s or even 90’s now in the USET east, despite clear- cutting through some jumps, or having quite sticky rounds that stand out as not very good according to some on this thread. Were they deserving of a 90, or whatever? Probably not according to spectators here with no " dog in the fight", and yet they will get top ribbons. If we keep stacking the deck with the " names", why should others bother?[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure what you have against the equitation, based on this and the Maclay Regionals thing. If you go look at the rounds available on USEF Network, you will see that the scores very clearly match the rounds. All of the riders in the top 4 had beautiful gymnastics and jumping rounds. No one in the top 10 had sticky rounds or cut through any jumps. When one of the riders had an iffy round in the final four switch, her score reflected that. The big name riders have big names because they are that good.
I was disappointed to see the number of horses wearing “pinch” or Doda boots in this competition. Would be interested to correlate the number of stops to the number wearing those little bondage devices. The FEI is discussing their use now and has already banned them in young horse competitions. Wouldn’t mind if the USEF gave some thought to it.
Exactly. Equitation is supposed to be about effective riding. Nice to see some effective riding rewarded.
From time to time, horses are going to make mistakes, green-up, or get scared. Riders who can deal with that effectively show another set of skills (that many are lacking…) and while it’s fair to penalize a bit, I’m very pleased to see how the judges handled that situation.
More judging like that will encourage good riding and hopefully lesson the quest to have foot-perfect rounds from horses on autopilot.
I see AK was one of the judges? I have heard her referred to in many ways over many decades but never associated with politics…if anything, she has always been honest to a fault and quite direct about her opinions.
And I remember her when she was a JUNIOR out on the West Coast before she moved east to train with GM and win the Finals shortly after that somewhat controversial move that was absolutely the right thing for her even if it was not PC at all and caused quite the backlash…I can only imagine the internet would have gone up in flames had it existed at the time.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
It’s a side point, but after watching the gymnastics phase, I’m really impressed with the quality of riding in our young riders. That course was tough, and I noted quite a few horses that weren’t crazy about it, but completed anyway, due to effective riding.
Seems like I read a lot of claims about the top juniors not knowing how to handle tricky situations or anything other than a push button pony. What I saw of that gymnastics phase completely disproved that point.
The kids are all right.
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7202127]
Perhaps it isn’t a rider issue at all, but a judge issue. And a “name” issue. I think I have seen certain east coast Eq riders names 1000 times in various paid ads in periodicals. And then I read that some of those same names are scoring in the high 80’s or even 90’s now in the USET east, despite clear- cutting through some jumps, or having quite sticky rounds that stand out as not very good according to some on this thread. Were they deserving of a 90, or whatever? Probably not according to spectators here with no " dog in the fight", and yet they will get top ribbons. If we keep stacking the deck with the " names", why should others bother?[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Not only do you appear to have a very large equitation axe to grind, it’s a misinformed equitation axe at that.
[QUOTE=nutmeg;7202299]
I was disappointed to see the number of horses wearing “pinch” or Doda boots in this competition. Would be interested to correlate the number of stops to the number wearing those little bondage devices. The FEI is discussing their use now and has already banned them in young horse competitions. Wouldn’t mind if the USEF gave some thought to it.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t watch the live feed… but you could tell? From the video? Or you were there? Without being really close and/or seeing the inside-- how can you tell they weren’t regular leather open front boots? I don’t know that I have seen an eq horse show in Doda boots but lots of them show in open fronts.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7202459]
I didn’t watch the live feed… but you could tell? From the video? Or you were there? Without being really close and/or seeing the inside-- how can you tell they weren’t regular leather open front boots? I don’t know that I have seen an eq horse show in Doda boots but lots of them show in open fronts.[/QUOTE]
I did see some leather hind boots that are a similar shape to Doda boots in that they wrap around the back of the leg rather than just having the brushing panels on the sides - I believe I saw them on Lillie’s horse. I definitely couldn’t see close enough to make more than just an educated guess, but to me, they lacked the velcro tightening strap that pinch boots have and rather just looked like stylish, high quality leather eq boots.
ETA links: I think what you’re seeing are these, which to me, aren’t pinch boots. This is what I think of when I hear pinch boots with the strap that goes around the back of the tendon and can be tightened quite a bit more than the former, but again, I could be totally off the mark here.
[QUOTE=goodlife;7202472]
I did see some leather hind boots that are a similar shape to Doda boots in that they wrap around the back of the leg rather than just having the brushing panels on the sides - I believe I saw them on Lillie’s horse. I definitely couldn’t see close enough to make more than just an educated guess, but to me, they lacked the velcro tightening strap that pinch boots have and rather just looked like stylish, high quality leather eq boots.[/QUOTE]
I’d be really surprised to hear that eq horses were showing in Doda boots. The whole point of those boots is to make the horse more careful and clear the hind legs, which makes sense in jumpers. But making the horse clear the hind legs could make the horse jumper harder and therefore be slightly harder to sit/equitate on-- so it seems totally counterintuituve for the equitation.
Plus, unless I am wrong, eq rails aren’t sitting in those super light breath-and-they fall type cups. It’s a jumper style course perhaps, but not set so that the rails fall as easily as in jumpers. So I question why anyone would see utility in Doda boots.
I wasn’t there, so I am just speculating. I am curious.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7202487]
I’d be really surprised to hear that eq horses were showing in Doda boots. The whole point of those boots is to make the horse more careful and clear the hind legs, which makes sense in jumpers. But making the horse clear the hind legs could make the horse jumper harder and therefore be slightly harder to sit/equitate on-- so it seems totally counterintuituve for the equitation.
Plus, unless I am wrong, eq rails aren’t sitting in those super light breath-and-they fall type cups. It’s a jumper style course perhaps, but not set so that the rails fall as easily as in jumpers. So I question why anyone would see utility in Doda boots.
I wasn’t there, so I am just speculating. I am curious.[/QUOTE]
I agree as well. Also, in the equitation, a rail isn’t always going to play a huge role in the outcome, unlike in a GP where 4 faults can be the difference between thousands, or tens of thousands (or hundreds of thousands). You can finish an eq course on 4 faults and still be just fine, if your round was otherwise relatively free from error.
I also don’t think you’d want your equitation horse to be double-pumping over the C element of the triple.
There are enough quality equitation horses out there that are reasonably careful with enough scope that I don’t think Doda boots are going to be the latest and greatest thing, nor are they going to be the difference-maker between first and second place. Many an equitation final has been won by an entrant who dropped a rail on course.
When the horse is doing complicated gymnastics they possibly do not care for, whyever would you want to use a pinch boot to encourage extra height in back??? Possibly getting the horse more worried about jumping up behind then picking his way through something requiring his full attention???
Does not make sense. To me anyway. And those do look like heavy poles in the still pics that should “self school” when clobbered making the horse just be more careful about where he is going rather then worried about his hind feet.
On the subject of judging…
I sat at watched the USET West Gymnastics. Every horse. Didn’t sit with anyone and socialize. Didn’t play with my phone. Took some notes. When I checked the scores online later that night my impressions and those of the judges matched. Now I’m no judge and I didn’t go so far as to write down scores, but I had an idea of relative order in my head, along with my notes. IMHO one’s impressions aren’t necessarily accurate if you’re multitasking while judging.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7202459]
I didn’t watch the live feed… but you could tell? From the video? Or you were there? Without being really close and/or seeing the inside-- how can you tell they weren’t regular leather open front boots? I don’t know that I have seen an eq horse show in Doda boots but lots of them show in open fronts.[/QUOTE]
Go stand at the equitation ring at WEF or Devon, and you’d see a pretty large number of equitation horses getting their regular hind boots swapped for Doda’s just before they jump their last schooling jump.
This was a national final, and a rail can mean the difference between not only first and second, but also between making the final four and being fifth. Obviously some horses are more sensitive than others, but equitation horses usually do a whole lot the day of a big class-- lounged, early lesson, lounged again, maybe a trainer ride or another lesson before heading over to school. If you’re at WEF trade out the walker or treadmill for the lounging. And that’s before you take into account whether or not it’s been given anything to keep it quiet. So yeah, they want to make sure it’s not clobbering every rail, and Doda’s may help with that.
As for the trot poll issue, I thought Michael handled it really well, but was surprised that he wasn’t knocked more for it. And I thought Charlottes stadium trip wasn’t enough to keep her in the top 4. Overall, the level of riding was high, and the gymnastics and stadium courses were very challenging, though I thought they were fair enough to those who were at the final for the first time and/or not using their junior jumper (I watched most of the gymnastics and stadium phases). As an aside, I believe someone commented earlier on thinking that more of the East Coast finals horses were equitation horses-- there were a lot of equitation horses, but there were also a lot of junior jumpers/former Jr. jumpers, including Mattias’, Geoffrey, Isabelle, and I think Lauren, in the top 10 alone.
Sure you mean the inverse. I’ve seen equitation horses school with Dodas, but never show with them. There are also a lot more boots out there now that are in the style of the Doda boots; I’ve seen those frequently too.
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