EC ammy rules?

[c0608524]

Anyone well versed in EC ammy rules here to shed some light?

Local rider teaches at her family farm. It’s posted on social media and can be seen at local shows her coaching students.

“An EC amateur may not train or show a horse, or instruct a rider or driver, when remuneration for this activity will be given to a corporation or farm which he or she, or his or her family, owns or controls.” Is how the rule reads in the rule book.

Rider is showing in ammy classes at EC gold level shows. Am I misunderstanding this rule? I’ve refused reimbursement (from friends, so it’s not likely I’d take the cash anyways) for helping with kids because I’ve been paranoid about amateur status - not that I have many showing ambitions for the near future anyways lol.

[Scribbler]

@c0608524

Anyone well versed in EC ammy rules here to shed some light?

Local rider teaches at her family farm. It’s posted on social media and can be seen at local shows her coaching students.

“An EC amateur may not train or show a horse, or instruct a rider or driver, when remuneration for this activity will be given to a corporation or farm which he or she, or his or her family, owns or controls.” Is how the rule reads in the rule book.

Rider is showing in ammy classes at EC gold level shows. Am I misunderstanding this rule? I’ve refused reimbursement (from friends, so it’s not likely I’d take the cash anyways) for helping with kids because I’ve been paranoid about amateur status - not that I have many showing ambitions for the near future anyways lol.

She is breaking the rules. However the show stewards or EC will not know unless someone reports her. You can be the person to report her, if it matters to you.

Probably a screenshot of the SM ads of her teaching would be useful.

[Jealoushe]

@c0608524

Anyone well versed in EC ammy rules here to shed some light?

Local rider teaches at her family farm. It’s posted on social media and can be seen at local shows her coaching students.

“An EC amateur may not train or show a horse, or instruct a rider or driver, when remuneration for this activity will be given to a corporation or farm which he or she, or his or her family, owns or controls.” Is how the rule reads in the rule book.

Rider is showing in ammy classes at EC gold level shows. Am I misunderstanding this rule? I’ve refused reimbursement (from friends, so it’s not likely I’d take the cash anyways) for helping with kids because I’ve been paranoid about amateur status - not that I have many showing ambitions for the near future anyways lol.

How do you know what is being paid, if anything? Could be a working student, they could be a mentor. Seems like you are awfully concerned about someone who isn’t you.

[Scribbler]

Yeah I was assuming the SM post had rates for lessons or something.

If it’s just a visual that shows the person standing in the middle of the arena giving advice, there is no evidence that’s paid teaching at all and I would mind my own business.

[c0608524]

Posts that say “Thanks XX for the lesson!” at her family owned farm.

@Jealoushe, thanks for the kindhearted response to bring me back down to reality. You’re right - not my circus, not my monkeys.

[CHT]

I think a licensed beginner coach, can coach beginners without loosing their ammy status, but they can’t coach at shows.

" Coaching any person to ride or drive a horse, including riding or driving clinics and seminars. Exception: an EC amateur may hold an EC Instructor of Beginner Certificate and teach within the context of the certificate."

So, is she a Instructor of Beginners? If so, and she isn’t show coaching/taking clients to shows, then she is fine coaching at home.

[Scribbler]

@CHT

I think a licensed beginner coach, can coach beginners without loosing their ammy status, but they can’t coach at shows.

" Coaching any person to ride or drive a horse, including riding or driving clinics and seminars. Exception: an EC amateur may hold an EC Instructor of Beginner Certificate and teach within the context of the certificate."

So, is she a Instructor of Beginners? If so, and she isn’t show coaching/taking clients to shows, then she is fine coaching at home.

That’s really good to know! A common sense rule where EC isn’t following USEF.

[dags]

Beginner Certificate aside, if the farm is being paid for the lesson + she’s a member of the family that owns the farm, that would be a violation even if she’s not personally being “paid” — I think?

[SolarFlare]

@dags

Beginner Certificate aside, if the farm is being paid for the lesson + she’s a member of the family that owns the farm, that would be a violation even if she’s not personally being “paid” — I think?

This is the problem - it doesn’t matter if she’s not being paid directly, if the student is paying the farm/business. The exception is the Instructor of Beginners, but as posted she must have the certificate (not just teach beginners only).

[trubandloki]

I am not sure I agree with the theory that since this is not the OP’s circus she should ignore it. Rules are rules. I think it is good that the OP is researching the rules to make sure they properly understand them. I don’t think we should just walk away when someone is breaking the rules.

[Xctrygirl]

Agree with @trubandloki.

Turning a blind eye is NOT the way forward. Growing a pair and calling out those who are breaking/skirting/ignoring rules would actually improve the sport more. Sure you have to have the mental fortitude to handle this choice, but overall I am SO tired that we know 10,000 cheaters and NOT ONE PERSON will stand up and say something.

Yes I get it costs money to file a complaint with USEF, but how much money are we wasting collectively by trying to compete on a “level playing field” with those who make decisions to weigh the odds in their favor?

Em

[hoopoe]

@c0608524

Rider is showing in ammy classes at EC gold level shows. Am I misunderstanding this rule? I’ve refused reimbursement (from friends, so it’s not likely I’d take the cash anyways) for helping with kids because I’ve been paranoid about amateur status - not that I have many showing ambitions for the near future anyways lol

I think this statement from the OP shows she may have a skin in this game. While she jokes she is not show ring bound “in the near future”, her interpretation of the Ammy rule gave her pause about taking a money making opportunity

[Jealoushe]

@trubandloki

I am not sure I agree with the theory that since this is not the OP’s circus she should ignore it. Rules are rules. I think it is good that the OP is researching the rules to make sure they properly understand them. I don’t think we should just walk away when someone is breaking the rules.

Shouldn’t she just ask the person instead of asking here then?

Let’s be real. There are always ulterior motives in these things.

I mentor friends and give them free lessons on my family farm at times. I am 100% through and through and amateur. Teaching does not equal getting paid. Friends can hep friends.

[Jealoushe]

This is EC, not USEF. No issue with calling them out, but call them out. Message them, ask them. Go straight to the source.

Also posting “thanks for the lesson”, doesn’t indicate anything about payment.

[trubandloki]

@Jealoushe

Shouldn’t she just ask the person instead of asking here then?

Ask the person what the rules are? Why is that person a better person to ask what the rules are than asking what the rules are here?

I know lots of friends who help friends. I totally get what you are saying. I am just not willing to piss on anyone who asks one of these simple questions and insist they must have a nefarious reason for it. I also think that if we (general participants) are not willing to police our sports then we are just as much of the problem.

[Jealoushe]

Ask the person if they are making money or breaking the amateur rules, if they feel so strongly about it to post here.

I am not one to not police my sport, but I’m not going to assume something about someone else’s life either and then try and cause problems for them.

[trubandloki]

It makes more sense to know the rules before asking someone if they are breaking them. Geez. This seems like a pretty straight forward question that the OP gave us all the details about and people very nicely gave the OP lots of good information back.

[Scribbler]

It’s very common in Canada for coaches to be certified to one of the EC levels. I like that they are excluding Teachers of Beginners from the Ammy/Pro rules. Many such coaches are really just young ammies teaching basic children’s classes often in a big lesson program.

If the OP is really interested, they can look up whether the person that concerns them has an EC certification. If they are only certified Teacher of Beginners, then just let it slide. If they aren’t certified anything at all, you still have no evidence that the lesson was paid for.

[blondewithchrome]

The crazy thing, though, is that USEF defines “remuneration” as far more than getting “paid.” It can be as simple as someone getting a free lesson, meals paid for, or a gift of substantial monetary value. Sure, Ammy rider can argue they never got “paid” for the ride with money/check, but if the coaching on the horse they showed was free, entries were paid for, braiding covered by the owner - all of that could have been (until recently)** considered remuneration under USEF. EC, I am
Not familiar, but only saying that “getting paid” vs. not paid isn’t as black and white as it seems under Ammy rules

** edited to clarify that thankfully, USEFS H/J Ammy rules allow for horse expenses to be reimbursed now thanks Janet!

[CHT]

EC is the same. You can get a “gift of token value”, or expenses covered but anything substantial is the same as if you were getting paid.

OP - you have to pay a $100 deposit to file the complaint. If it is worth $100 to you, then do it. I don’t think we should be afraid of calling out bad actors.