[QUOTE=slc2;4564195]
“he seems wound very tight”
To me the horse looks like he’s running around going yay, haha, wheeee, big diagonal, yay![/QUOTE]
Yes, he’s like a teenage boy that has been given super powers just running around having a great time showing them off!
Thankfully, the horse does not read COH so he isn’t aware of how bad of a job he’s doing.
[QUOTE=siegi b.;4563701]
What Egon said… and let me add the “real” issue - Totilas is better than Ravel! So there, I said it…
I think I need a Christmas cookie now![/QUOTE]
:uhoh: As he runs and climbs into an asbestos lined suit of armour. :yes: :eek::lol:
No one has had a coronary over it yet. The night is young!
He’s ‘better’ in the sense he scores higher. Most however, will not say ‘he’s better’, but that ‘we was robbed’
:lol:
I find his movement brilliant–blindingly so. His lateral flexibility exceptional–excludably so.
What about showing longitudinal flexibility along with lateral flexibility? This horse’s topline hardly changes, if at all, through the course of the test. It doesn’t matter if he’s collected or extended. And we’re not just talking about the neck–it’s suppose to be (I thought) an increase in the length of the topline from nose to butt.
I guess I’m really old, but when I grew up a horse that didn’t show a lengthen topline in correlation with the lengthening of the steps was hammered on the score sheet. This ride might be “fabulous” today, but I don’t think it was that long ago that it would have instead been found to be very fundamentally in error–and scored as such.
And honestly I don’t see this as a “rolkur issue.” Use whatever training methods you want, but when you get in the ring you are still suppose to do it “right.” Unless of course the definition “right” has changed. If it has changed could someone please explain to me why being asked to show less flexibility than previously asked for is a more desirable outcome?
What concerns me the most is as an eventer losing the importance of longitudinal flexibility could be serious safety issue for a XC horse. I hate seeing things going that direction for us…
Aleks27-could you explain to me why you chose that particular frame from T’s GPS at the Euro Championships at Windsor to illustrate your comment “getting these near perfect scores”, when it was the start of movement 2,(MXK extended trot, KAFP collected trot), showing the first slightly muffed transition for which he did not get a near perfect score, in a test which scored quite a few 7s, and a whole raft of 4s (1x’s), earning him a second placing despite the record number of 10s for his collected work, which was as good as most of us will ever see live. Why did you choose that particular frame out of - what - millions over 6 minutes of video in this digital age?
This discussion is about Movement, not stills. Show us the video, then there might be some relevance.
I actually agree with your comment about correct lengthenings, and I’ve made similar observations over the last 15 years or so. I don’t know whether standards have changed more or if it’s simply that the shape and movement of dressage-bred horses has changed so much… but yes, I’m still longing to see a good old fashioned lengthened topline in an extension. (I’m also wondering when I got to be one of these fuddy duddies who goes around telling younger people that in MY day everything was much more correct…I remember rolling my eyes on various occasions when my instructors used to treat me to such reminiscences when I was a teenager! :lol: )
The important thing to note though, is that the lengthening issue is not a problem limited to Totilas, who is actually as active behind in the extensions as most, and I suspect will build on this with age. I don’t know of many people who are saying his extensions are “fabulous”, but only that his ability overall is such. And in T’s case, the lower marks he gets for extensions are well outweighed by across-the-board tens in the things he does well. So yes, if I ruled the world I’d probably take those extension marks down to a 7 at times, but I can’t say I’d alter the marks he’s getting on collected movements.
I don’t think the problem with this horse is rollkur, or the nationality of the breeders or trainers, or anything else so simplistic. Someone asked if people would change their tune if the horse was American. Haven’t you figured out that no horse is safe on this board? (Ha ha!) But really, come on. People love how _________ goes, and others can’t stand how ____________ goes under saddle. [In the blank insert Brentina, Bonfire, Rembrandt, Gigolo, Rusty, Relevant - and those are the greats, forget about the ‘almost greats’] To me, the problem people have is that the score is so much higher than the other scores and so much higher than the greats that came before him. I think he is a fantastic horse who makes it look relaxed and easy. But he’s got some miniscule shortcomings and that can be said of any of the horses in brackets listed above and anyone in the show ring now, in the past and in the future. Bonfire and Gigolo pushed the score limits in their time. And then Rusty pushed past the 80%, I think. Now Totilas pushes past 90%. In 20 years will the best horses score 95-100% Will they have give extra credit to differentiate the best horses? This is where lots of people have issue with the score in my opinion.
[QUOTE=BayHorseUK;4564387]
I don’t know of many people who are saying his extensions are “fabulous”, but only that his ability overall is such. And in T’s case, the lower marks he gets for extensions are well outweighed by across-the-board tens in the things he does well. So yes, if I ruled the world I’d probably take those extension marks down to a 7 at times, but I can’t say I’d alter the marks he’s getting on collected movements.[/QUOTE]
But it isn’t just the extended work that fails to lengthen the topline. I agree now, for matter of argument that his collected work is fine enough. But there is work done between collection and extension that is wrong as well. The mediums shouldn’t look the the collected either. And if you want to get really technical the collected trot shouldn’t look exactly like the piaffe and passage. It’s a CONTINUUM–as the collection increases the head, neck and general attitude is elevated and shortened, yet this horse’s topline is almost reduced to a single sustained position.
The real fundamental issue for me is that if you lose longitudinal flexibility it questions whether your horse is even correctly connected (which goes back and questions if that collected work is really as good as it looks…)
But then again I’ll say I’m an eventer, so maybe I’m over playing longitudinal flexibility because that is the single most important lesson a XC horse gets out of the dressage ring IMHO. As one person said elsewhere, for dressage longitudinal adjustability might get you a few extra points–for and eventer it might save our lives…
[QUOTE=slc2;4562942]
Depends on who you ask. “Manufactured” is a term some people use for a gait they don’t like, some use for any sort of altered gait, some use for any time the feet are lifted up high.
‘Manufactured’ is not a defined dressage term, and different people use it to mean many different things.
Keeping in mind that the foreleg in extended trot CAN very well lift and make a higher gesture than the hind leg and be correct (look for pictures or Rocher, Boleem, for examples) because the hind legs are lightening the forehand that much, please note that it can also lift and make a higher gesture than the hind leg, and be incorrect, too.
Many people here say the foreleg must always be perfectly parallel to the hind leg, and that’s incorrect technically, if the hind quarters are working very correctly and the balance is perfect, the foreleg can make an expressive gesture because it is freed up.
In this case, the hind and fore cannons do not and cannot remain parallel, simply because of how the hind leg is structured. The key is that the hind leg and back are very correct in position, and the foreleg floats effortlessly.
What is incorrect, is when rather than the momentum and balance and power allowing the forehand more freedom, it is the effort of the shoulder muscles raising the foreleg, while at the same time, the hind legs are markedly not tracking up, and the back is not correctly working.
No, I don’t believe Totilas is being trained with any ‘action devices’. I think it is very easy to produce this sort of erroneous action without any of that.
Just ask for a little too much on a horse that is a little green and needs more suppleness, and tends to try very, very hard and get very eager.
I think the photo above, with Totilas making an extreme gesture at the trot, lifting his foreleg very high, is an exaggeration of the old pre-hyperflexion problem, ‘all the generals out in front, no soldiers bringing up the rear’ thing that can happen and has happened for a great many years in many horses.
I think this horse is so exhuberant that he can get over ridden very, very easily. And I do think it’s getting better, er, some, and I think Gal is actively trying to fix it though not always entirely succeeding. I think Gal just asks the horse for a ton of expression in the extended trot, and winds up going too far. The horse looks a lot more normal when he does extended trot in the warmup.
“But, seriously, if this:
http://i45.tinypic.com/i4ia81.jpg
is getting these near perfect scores, why are people not allowed to express negative views without being jumped on?”
Keep in mind that this is the worst this horse ever does, that he doesn’t always go to this extreme, and that there are better moments. Even so, it still is a problem.
But like many top scoring horses with specific faults in their test, he simply has a lot of other things he does very well, and he wins back points elsewhere.
I won’t follow the bandwagon and cry that he is getting overly generously scored when he does this, until I see specific scores for these movements. Maybe there are judges over scoring him, but I don’t have enough information yet to agree.
“why are people not allowed to express negative views without being jumped on”
Because they aren’t saying their negative views privately to their teddy bear in their bedroom?
Because people are opinionated, and they nearly invariably ‘jump on’ people who disagree with them. As far as I recall, the bill of rights or constitution says, ‘freedom of speech’, not that, 'and when you speak, everyone will scream, ‘so true! so true! we are not worthy!’
Look, it’s not even a dressage thing. People always do a lot of ‘jumping on’, in every subject and topic in the world. Anyone ever listen to anyone discuss politics, religion, cars, the environment, or how to categorize butterflies? Dressage fans are not exactly breaking new ground here.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the explaination.
Yes, an entire ride should not be judged on one photo that captures one moment in time. Then why are these photos, showing the pair at their “worst” being published in articles praising them?
For example:
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2010/10wcf/qual_london-gal.html
So why, in the photo used to presumably represent his ride, is the horse behind the vertical, poll not at the hightest point, and disconnected?
These pro photographers take many many captures so there are many to photos to choose from.
This photo is not from Olympia, but is an example of what might have been a better photo to use.
Okay, now to the ride…
These are used as a reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eet-Vbg-YJ4
http://eventcontent.hippoonline.de/453/docs/r02d.pdf
Poll not at the highest point.
At the halt the horse tucks and curls his head in and thus is behind the vertical. This is not the first test in which this has occured. Is it marked down?
Why doesn’t he give a few inches at least of the reins.
In piaffe poll not at highest point. Less weight should be on the front, more transferred to the back by lifting the front. Can the horse go into a levade from this?
A collected piaffe here from 1:10.
Extended trot, speaks for itself, and I’ve already picked on it apparently. Very disconnected diagonal pairs. Toe flicking. “Swimming” in front. Pausing at some points, such as at 1:55, seems that one leg is on the ground. Now it may be due to the quality of the video. I prefer this, Klimke and Ahlerich, or this.
At the walk, why is the horse not allowed to extend the neck more. The walk starts off okay, but then is almost lateral to my eye. Not like Anky at Sydney though, yikes! This shows a normal walk, and I choose it because the horse is walking on a road, the hoof falls can be heard, and thus the the four beats can be heard clearly.
Correctness of movements should come first, then worry about flexion at the poll.
Why the need for such exessive knee blocks?
There is drooling, which can be seen on the horse after, which leads to stengthen my thought that the horse is tense, as he is being held in tight, and no being able to swallow, which is important for an active relaxed mouth. Can he preform without a crank noseband?
Less prick-prick-prick with the spurs.
Something looks off about his neck muscling at the end, after he exits, when he is allowed on a loose rein. Kind of bottom thick.
I find that Ahlerich apprears much more relaxed and willing. However, do I think his 1984 Olympic preformance perfect? No.
Yes, this is not terrible, horrendous, etc… but I do think that improvements need to be made if this is to truely represent the “best” of dressage in the present day. He does train using over flexed positions, as can be seen in his clinics and warmup.
For example in this video where he is teaching a young rider. The horse is ridden btv, etc… and he even says at multiple points, “keep him low, hands down.” Why is he not teaching proper forward down and out stretching which is beneficial. The horse should not come behind the vertical in a proper low position. As can be seen on Gerd Heuschmann’s site.
The horse got his highest score from Stephen Clarke, and his lowest score from the Polish judge Markowski. But indeed the extended trot looks better in that video and not so overdone.
I just watched the master class with the 10 yr old mare Jeu and Gal riding her.
And it’s just odd.
Granted, the arena where he was giving the demonstration was not really very horse friendly and ‘the crowd went wild’ every time he did the least little thing, so it wasn’t going to be the best in some ways.
I thought it was very cool how he schools different tempos in the pirouette and half pass. But there were a number of things that really puzzled me, especially what is supposed to be desirable in the extended trot.
[QUOTE=slc2;4564870]
I just watched the master class with the 10 yr old mare Jeu and Gal riding her.
And it’s just odd.
Granted, the arena where he was giving the demonstration was not really very horse friendly and ‘the crowd went wild’ every time he did the least little thing, so it wasn’t going to be the best performance technically or the best riding.
I thought it was very cool how he schools different tempos in the pirouette and half pass. But there were a number of things that really puzzled me, especially what is supposed to be desirable in the extended trot.[/QUOTE]
I thought it was a fantastic and generous demonstration. I saw a lot I will try to get at home - the tempo control especially and I think that was a perfect example of working pirouettes.
I REALLY like this mare (although I really have a personally preference for mares)
I did not see anything “odd” about it. Perhaps slc2, you could post a video of yourself? Or even some pictures from your shows? Mine are up here.
I’ve never used your pictures to judge whether what you say is correct or not, I’m not sure that’s a good idea, and while a pretty picture might give a person’s words more weight, I don’t think a picture is necessary to voice an opinion. Too, I think you’re over-interpreting what I wrote.
Some people use the word ‘odd’ when they mean, ‘it sucked and I hated it and who ever doesn’t agree we me is brainless’, kind of like they say, ‘I’m confused’ when they really mean ‘i despise what you said’, what a friend of mine calls ‘politically correct trashing’, LOL. I use the word to mean, something I need to think about and remember. Looked a little different, keep it in mind, will learn more later.
The extended trot comments he made, the movement of the shoulder in the walk, the rider’s lower leg position which my friend says is very incorrect. The comments about not doing the extended trot much at home and the kind of extended trot he is looking for. At one point to the left, the middle of the saddle was 4-6 inches to the right of the horse’s spine. Girth loose? Dunno. Watched some other videos of Gal riding, this wasn’t happening. Odd…probably just a momentary thing. Perhaps horse was falling in or trying to spook. It was very, very noisy in there and not a place where a horse is going to be really relaxed.
To me, ‘odd’, meaning make a note, remember and think about it, try to see both sides(guaranteed to make both sides mad at me, LOL).
How do I think about it? Well, I take my friend’s comments…ok, his lower leg is quite forward, granted. But he’s said several times this is his system, he wants to take his lower leg off the horse, this is a choice of his. Ok…horses are very, very forward, maybe this works very well for him, maybe not so much for others…Ok, I also notice, he has a very long thigh and a shorter calf. Maybe this is more comfortable for him given how he’s built. Monica Theodorescu often seems to ride with her lower leg very far back. She seems to do fairly well for herself…So I just remember and keep it in mind. I probably won’t change what I’m trying to do to either very forward or very far back, I’ll just keep it in mind. I won’t discard my friend’s comments, technically, he is right, but I’ll try to see what’s going on and see both sides.
What I thought was great? The incredible transitions, the tempo exercises, the way the horse is just so fantastic off the leg, and that someone like him would give a demonstration of how they school their horse. It always sparks a lot of internet buzz about different aspects of the demonstration, but it is really great to be able to see it.
Along with pondering the point of disecting a still when we’re discussing/criticising movement, I’m wondering what the point of analysing old performances ad infinitum when the horse involved is improving month by month, performance on performance. As would any good young horse with training tailored to him. Alecks - read Simon Battram’s critique of Wednesday’s performance on Dr Ritter’s CD forum.
Some people use the word “odd” when they are dizzy from flip flopping on an issue, their butt is sore from sitting on the fence and they just can’t decide WTF they actually think but seem compelled to post an opinion anyway and do not wish to risk being “wrong”.
I’m interested to know who thinks Totilas is using his back to connect his back end to the front end?
[QUOTE=Plantagenet;4565053]
I’m interested to know who thinks Totilas is using his back to connect his back end to the front end?[/QUOTE]
Who was it that told me that in the US there are tooooo much people who wouldn’t recognise a good horse even when it was there own horse or they sat on one 
Let me think 
I’m going to guess that as long as his back end isn’t surgically separated from his front end, they are indeed connected.
Is it ideal every second? Nuh uh. So? Is anything ideal every second.
Agree with the previous comment about why keep dissecting the past when the horse si different every month.
I’m interested to know who thinks Totilas is using his back to connect his back end to the front end?
Pick me! Pick me!
Anatomy tells me so.:lol:
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