Hello, I am just wondering how your horse responded to a 3 ring elevator bit the first time you tried it with them. Any negatives that had to be worked through?
If there are any negatives from the start, I generally remove the bit and try something else. With this bit, that might include overflexing / getting behind the bit, head tossing, nose flipping, getting inverted / above the bit… etc. It depends on what they are objecting to. Some object to the poll action. For some it’s too much leverage and they try to curl away from it.
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Other than coming back to me more promptly on the landing side mid-course no real appreciable difference. Are you having a specific problem?
More control, or at least more breaks, but as the cost of some serious head tossing. From a strictly mechanical standpoint I dislike gags. Without a chain the mouthpiece is free to overrotate and pull up into the corners of the lips, clashing with the signal the horse is getting from the poll pressure.
Bear in mind too that gags are really supposed to be used with two reins, and if I had the option with the horse in question here (wasn’t my horse, so…), I think her reactions would have been minimized.
Are you trying this bit on the same TB that you were having problems with when you posted this? https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f…trolling-speed
What specific problem are you thinking going to an elevator bit will solve?
My horses responded just fine to a 3 ring elevator bit but were well broke to the aids using both curb and snaffle bits. Both myself and, of course, my trainer were comfortable with the second rein that is generally used and certainly an absolute must when introducing an elevator to a horse.
We only used it schooling to correct specific issues with the horse getting too low in front landing and motorcycling around corners and only a few times. Not a day to day solution…because they’ll blow right through that too and switch to a different evasion.
You have to fix the root problem, not band aid the symptoms. Generally that fixing involves back to basics for both horse AND rider. You can’t solve a problem unless you are willing to look at all possible causes of that problem and all of us can always improve our riding strength and position. Elevator bit on its own is no solution and can backfire making things worse.
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I honestly don’t think an elevator bit is going to end up good in this situation 
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Ya think?
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A three ring elevator rigged with two reins is an incredibly useful bit in the right hands. And by the right hands, I mean someone who can ride forward off their leg even when the horse is forward, and someone with the dexterity to engage and disengage the curb effect on demand.
The two risks of using one are 1.) teaching the horse to evade by curling behind the bit 2.) overusing the leverage and pissing the horse off/making it more resistant.
I used on on an OTTB who tended to dive down and get heavier and heavier in front as the course progressed. Schooling him in the three ring and getting him used to the idea of rebalancing/getting off his front end when I asked was the key. But I taught that on the flat, and had the half halt/rebalance firmly established before jumping around a XC course again. My goal was to show him in something other than the three ring.
If you need an elevator bit to be in control around a Novice level XC or stadium course, there are some serious holes in your foundation.
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OP has told me that the horse will “hit the bit” (I am assuming hits tension in arms that are not following, versus rooting) and invert. I see this all the time with forward TBs and shanked bits. It’s too strong / the wrong type of bit for this horse and is likely to be a dangerous setup.
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@standardBread,
An three ring or an elevator is NOT a gag bit, it is a leverage bit and there are some important differences, though I agree in general with the main points of your post.
A true gag is on sliding cheeks, which allow the bit to move a fair distance upwards on the horse’s jaw . A three ring or elevator can only move as far as the upper shank pivots forward, which is quite a bit less.
The old classic Jimmy Williams elevator was the harsher of the two, because the upper shank was quite long and allowed for more bit movement.
The true three ring has about as much movement as a Baucher or a pelham; the three ring has more leverage if you engage the curb rein because of the long lower shank.
While I understand the bitting theory behind a curb chain; that it stabilizes the bit in the horse’s mouth and limits movement, my personal experience is that many more horses object to the curb chain more than they do the mild poll pressure from the leverage effect, which may be why the three ring is so popular - horses tolerate it with less overt resistance.
I am a old curmudgeon, and while I have used both of these bits sparingly, I have lately come to consider them similar to draw reins: a perfectly legitimate tool in the right hands, but the right hands can probably get it done with less coercive tack. Not always abused, but entirely too often abused.
I apologize for picking that nit. Now get off my lawn!
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I went back and re-read that thread from April to refresh my memory.
It was clear in that thread the OP was struggling with fitness and balance and a fear of going fast.
Bitting up is not the solution, especially if you have to ask online what constitutes a “bad reaction” to a harsher bit.
I thnk that the good advice in that previous thread still applies. It has only been three months. I know how much progress an adult ammie can make in three months. You can fix maybe one or two things, but you can’t transform your riding 100%. That takes years of diligent work.
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Thank you for your replies. After working with 2 trainers now on lots of basic flatwork schooling they’ve advised me to try a different bit. He understands and listens to half halts on the flat but gets strong and excited during jump schooling which makes him difficult to regulate. After addressing myself and his skill level it has come to this decision which is the basis of my post. We used the elevator once and he schooled marvelous on the flat and was super easy to regulate between fences but would invert over the fence. Therefore we aren’t going to use it again. As with any training tool it is meant to be temporary and not a crutch or a bandaid. I have ridden him dressage in a baucher as the next bit to try and that was also a no go for him.
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I’m not sure where a baucher would be the next step up from an elevator bit, it’s really just a snaffle with arguably a tiny bit of poll pressure (but I never really saw any poll pressure back when I used one for a while).
I don’t want to step up from an elevator. I want to step down. WAY down. :lol: We started at the 2nd ring on the elevator and after about 20 minutes we moved to the first ring on it and there was no improvement. So way too much leverage with that. He schooled so well on the flat with the elevator that I wanted to try different bits for dressage so my trainer suggested a baucher. My horse told me he absolutely hated it. My friend told me to try a Happy Tongue D Ring for dressage so that should be here tomorrow and I’m excited to try it. I believe the next bit on the list to try for jumping is a Waterford.
OK, I"m a bit confused. From the original post it sounds like you are trying to work through issues with the elevator bit, but now it’s clarified that it was a one-time trial and you then gave up on it?
What’s wrong with a simple snaffle for dressage?
I can see where the challenge in eventing is, you want a horse that accepts and seeks contact on a mild snaffle for dressage but then you want to prevent runaways on course with a harsher bit. The Waterford isn’t anything I’d put in the mouth of a dressage horse, for sure. But the question is, if you use something so harsh that the horse avoids contact for jumping, how do you get the horse to seek and enjoy contact on the plain snaffle after you have taught him to “back off” the bit?
This is a genuine question, I’m also mulling it over in a different context when I switch between dressage and Western riding, where you want the horse backed off the bit. For Western one solution is a mechanical hackamore. I don’t know if those are still “legal” for eventing or not.
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The elevator bit was used once. Due to the negative reaction over fences I don’t feel like it is safe to continue using it, as it has been conveyed that it’s not something to work through. The answer being to not use it at all since he had that reaction. He goes in a loose ring French link for dressage but demonstrates some behavior that may indicate he’d prefer a different bit. Especially after feeling how well he went in the elevator on the flat. I wouldn’t use a Waterford in dressage. It is not a dressage legal bit. I don’t want him to avoid contact while jumping, I just want him to stop grabbing the bit, stop leaning on it, and for him to respect my half halts and regulate his tempo. Which in his case, a snaffle isn’t cutting it, and that is the purpose of a Waterford and why it’s on the list to try.
My question was whether using a harsher bit in the jumping phase will make the horse less likely to stretch to the bit and accept contact in dressage.
Now I realize that to many eventers, dressage is just something to get through in order to be allowed to gallop full speed across open country 
and I get that.
But for me, coming from a dressage-first perspective, I would really hesitate to put anything in a horse’s mouth that would run counter to encouraging soft and willing contact. I ride one horse that sucks back and likes to go above the bit, and I worry that taking her to cattle penning in the snaffle and making her go behind the bit in the western way will undo the willing contact I’ve spent years teaching her. I ride another horse that is a real powerhouse and much more advanced in dressage, but has moments of dumping and leaning, but even so I have a number of half halt skills to get her lighter in front. None of this is currently in a jumping context however. Both have competed cross country with other riders, and done fine, no loss of control.
And again, coming from a dressage perspective, I see grabbing the bit, leaning on the bit, refusing half halts and not regulating tempo as being training issues, not bitting issues. The horse is not yet willing or able to carry himself correctly. He is on the forehand and can’t get off the forehand. When you put a stronger bit on him, of course he is going to invert, because that’s what happens when you use force on a horse that is travelling on the forehand. Putting a stronger bit on a horse does not in and of itself teach them to shift their weight backwards, use their hind end, collect on the approach to a jump, stretch to the bit over the jump, bascule, do a balanced turn to the next jump, etc.
So honestly, I think the solution here is more and better quality dressage training. The horse needs to be able to carry himself in balance and not fall on his face, and the things you and your trainer understand as the horse saying “screw you” are actually signs that the horse cannot carry himself in a balanced way, and is falling forward because he can’t stay upright.
So perhaps better quaiity jump training as well.
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Thank you Scribbler. I appreciate your post and agree entirely. I see your points. As an eventer my focus most of the time is dressage. I ride 90% of the time dressage and have been trying to foster relaxing into contact for the majority of our time together. I bought him as a “project” and his main baggage was contact issues due to his history. Although it has improved I still think changing his dressage bit might benefit him. Here is the link to the next one I’m trying with him. http://www.bombers.co.za/bits-by-colour-code/sensitive-tongue-a-head-shakers/happy-tongue/product/2848-dee-happy-tongue.html Not a stronger bit or anything, just something he can relax into and enjoy. Maybe then we can get higher quality schooling on the flat which may translate to more regulation while jumping.
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Great that you can back off from the gag.
Keep on learning that less is more.
