Was your PM to me, asking that I not refer to your previous posts about the difficulties you were having with your horse being strong in the bridle, due to the fact that this is a different horse?
You asked the question. I am asking if you are speaking about the same horse. That’s all.
I agree with this post.
Quality dressage training takes Time and ideally a skilled coach to help you along.
A friend is struggling climbing the levels in the jumper ring at the moment and it is purely due to not taking dressage seriously and being consistent. I think it is often overlooked or found to be “boring” or “irrelevant” since it isn’t actual jumping. But you can really tell the difference with a horse that has a solid proper dressage foundation. Maybe it is months before you point him at another fence, that’s fine. Get to the bottom of the contact issues. It’ll pay off in the long run.
At the lower levels you can get away with patching things together to some extent, but if you want to succeed and excel, put in the work toward a solid dressage skill set.
Sometimes a bit change is just a bandaid or something new. I agree with finding a bit that is best for the horse in terms of comfort (such as mouth space/conformation).
Thank you for the encouragement. I totally agree.
For the jumping issue, sometimes horses that rush or invert over single jumps can be helped by lots of low gymnastic work. Set up four low jumps mixing one stride and bounces between them. Then let the horse learn how to take it easy and regroup himself over the group.
Then mix it up a bit.
In terms of working on dressage, if you are looking for the horse to soften and reach for the bit, you could go with a Nathe or H-S Duo white plastic mullen mouth. This is a softer bit than a Happy Mouth, and it will help a horse that backs off the bit or inverts and sucks behind the bit.
Horses will often speed up in dressage/flat-work because they lack balance, or they lack the muscling to hold themselves together. You can work on this with lots of circle work, serpentines, trotting over cavalletti, etc. Riding out in a big field with uneven ground or on the trails at all gaits will also help to build strength and confidence.
Have fun!
FWIW: I don’t have a ton of experience in stronger bits because I’ve been a dressage rider most of my riding life so my bit collection has traditionally been pretty boring (lots of single- and double-jointed loose ring snaffles in different sizes, lol). However, I recently rode an event horse that is jumped in a slow-twist full-cheek Dr. Bristol (by trainer) and Waterford gag (by ammy owner). I’ve been riding him in a double-jointed loose ring snaffle on the flat. He has been very happy to seek correct contact in those bits and does not get heavy. So I’d say from my sample size of one that bitting up for jumping will not necessarily ruin your dressage. I realize I’m not a very authoritative source but wanted to answer because I think the question was interesting.
To the OP: has your trainer jumped your horse lately? If so, how does he go for him/her in a plain snaffle?
In my experience horses that grab the bit and rush tend to do it because they are used to being grabbed by the rider. Now if he leans really hard, a bit he respects and likes (does not necessarily = stronger) may help you temporarily improve your half half because you will get a moment of the right response and then you can let go. The letting go piece is what stops one that grabs and leans. Because it takes 2 to play this game. And it often begins with anxiety in the horse and rider that gets on a never ending loop.
For a horse who inverts as part of the evasions, I would not select a Waterford. Given how he responded to the 2 ring, I might try a slow twist. Or something like the NS Verbidend, which is a great snaffle for those that like it (mine personally hates it and told me right away). Or even take a step way back with something like the Duo or a hollow mouth eggbutt. Some OTTBs are surprising in that they tend to like a much thicker mouthpiece than we might expect. That may be something you’ll find out with the happy tongue bit.
You’re quite correct in your observation that your Bauchers never had any poll pressure. Because they physically can’t produce leverage. A leverage bit needs two lever arms to work, and so long as ring the rein attaches to isn’t some horrifically oblong monstrosity that prevents the rein from moving freely, a Baucher bit will never have a lower shank, and thus no leverage and no poll pressure.
Incidentally, bosals work on the same principle.
Thank you! In general when my horse is going well and responding to half halts in his French link loose ring he jumps lovely and correct. When he blasts through my half halts in the French link he often jumps flat and incorrect. We’ve been doing a lot of gymnastics which has been super fun and effective but it hasn’t yet rectified his “strongness” the training is in there. I know it. Because we do have some good days where he is totally chill about jumping and then other days he’s like “hell yes this is my favorite thing let’s go!” When we introduced the elevator he was super to regulate but would invert over jumps and flip his nose. He would do this between fences at first because he is used to doing that with me despite being correct in my positioning and aides. Anyway when he tried to pull his antics in the elevator bit he would come up, hit the contact, easily come back to me, but then jump inverted and gross. So my main question was if this could be worked through with the elevator bit or to try another one. Keeping in mind that flat work has been worked at ad nauseum and he goes pretty great in dressage work, he can carry himself at the canter not falling on the forehand, he can accept contact if I am riding correctly but is honest and let’s me know if I’ve forgotten to be soft in my elbows. Perhaps cantering ground poles with the elevator could assist him in acclimating to the bit in a safe way? I asked my trainer about a slow twist and they said it was too harsh of a bit for him to consider at this point.
Personally, if I had a horse that was being good in between fences and then inverting over a fence, I’d use a neck rope/strap because that would lead me to believe I am catching the horse in the mouth. Every single fence I’d make sure my reins were long enough to allow the neck to properly stretch down and I’d have my hands on that neck rope.
I’ve been riding 20 years and right now I am using a neck rope every single time I hop on a specific pony because she’s very green, very sensitive, and my nearly invisible unsteadiness in my outside hand from the ground was driving her bananas. At first I was a whiny punk about it because it made me feel like I was about 6 years old to be trotting around holding a silly neck strap. My trainer told me to buck up and put the horse before my pride. I caved and guess what, the pony’s unsteadiness in the contact completely disappeared because she was responding to my unsteadiness. Pony is now happy, my hands are quieter than ever, and I learned a lesson.
From another perspective: In a plain snaffle can he do the 20m “circle of death” exercise with poles, ride between two poles and adjust the number of strides, and maintain his rhythm going through a fan of elevated poles? I’d make sure that the basics are really really solid in his flatwork and do more cavaletti work until he finds the idea of trotting or cantering over 6-12" absolutely no different than a normal stride.
I figure that since I see lots of neck straps at badminton I should feel no shame in using one
Gracelikerain YES. Omg I’ve been riding for 20 years as well and could benefit from a grab strap over fences. My trainer says I’m so used to him landing and taking off that I ride defensively and sit up too soon and don’t finish my release which coincides with his head flipping. In my reading about the elevator bit i read that you want to maintain contact with the bit because a sudden unsteadiness can cause the inversion. So I’m confused as to whether his inverting was due to too much release with loss of contact or because I really am hitting him however subtle that may be. And whether this is a matter of just needing more schooling with it or not. This discussion has made me think that I should school him on the flat over poles and cavaletti to get my point across and the lesson “through” to his mind. And once that’s solid, taking it back to the French link over fences.
Oh, and as for the circle of death. I am totally down to try that. I have historically doubted my horses ability to do a certain exercise and then he surprises me and does really well. I’ll ask my trainer if we can set that up. I don’t have poles at home yet.
So I’m confused as to whether his inverting was due to too much release with loss of contact or because I really am hitting him however subtle that may be.
This confuses me - are you riding in the elevator with one rein or two?
Because riding with the elevator with contact on the snaffle rein should be no different than riding with any other snaffle. The whole point of an elevator or three ring is that you only engage the curb rein when there’s a problem. For instance, when jumping, I’d have normal contact on the snaffle rein approaching and landing from the fence. If, after the landing stride, the horse rooted, bore down or shot off, I’d quickly shorten the curb rein, bring him back under control, circle, and when I had the pace I wanted again, dramatically release the curb rein. The clear message being: Hold the pace and balance I want, life is easy and good. Run through my aids, life gets harder. Listen to my aids, life gets easy again.
If a horse inverts when you lose contact, there’s something else going on - perhaps you don’t have a true, sympathetic following contact but are just holding?
" Keeping in mind that flatwork has been worked at ad nauseum". This attitude will be a problem. You may be tired of flatwork but you and your horse need it to solve your jumping issues, and you haven’t been at it for very long at all. You have a horse that requires patience and time, and that equates to working on dressage for as long as it takes.
You’ve been given some great advice on this thread. Your horse is lovely and I wish you both good luck.
I’m sorry that you feel aggrieved by my posts. However, I will not engage with you in PMs, given that your messages seem to be written in anger.
If you drop the reins and then snatch them up you’ll definitely get inversion because they are getting popped with a lot more pressure than a direct snaffle rein. That being said, if you grab a neck strap and allow the hands to go up the neck, land holding the strap, slide your hands back to their normal position, and then let go of the reins, it creates a pretty smooth arc of softening the contact and regaining it. If other things are worked out, I wouldn’t expect inversion.
If you have any tendency not to release enough or to come back too early, I would for sure not use an elevator.
It’s a never ending cycle. You hold to the jump because you are afraid of him rushing. He is afraid of being held so much so he rushes to try to save himself at the jump. Then you don’t release at all or you come back early already grabbing on landing because you know he’ll be strong, and he braces and gets strong because he is reacting to the aid you are giving both on his back and in his mouth.
I don’t need to watch a video of it because it’s a common story. My horse was started much the same way over fences because he was not properly educated in the contact first and was a huge baby with poor balance. Some are ok on the flat but anxious over fences for some reason. I’ve also coached enough riders with the same essential problem to see it manifest among various horse and rider combinations and backgrounds.
The way to fix it is to be soft, follow the horse and let go. Grab mane. Grab a neck strap. Stay in your 2 point. Practice over poles and the smallest jumps. Jump through your gymnastics without the reins—tie them to the mane.
So what you got a bad distance from the rushing. Doesn’t matter. Once you are at the jump, let go. Long release. And keep on letting go for at least a few strides after the jump. You might go fast at first. Who cares. Regroup later and start again. And do this until he realizes you are going to stop grabbing his face and will let him jump in a comfortable posture. Most likely he will slow down and stop inverting without any change in equipment. Soon enough the front side of the jump will be better too because there won’t be so much anxiety on either of your part.
You don’t even have to canter jumps to get started. Walk or very slowly trot small jumps. Big release and let go. And so on.
The thing about flatwork is that dressage is not just about “teaching” the horse. It is also about getting the horse fit and strong to move in a new way. And usually you want the horse to move in the way he least prefers so if the horse has a high head above the bit, you work on stretching to the bit. And if the horse dumps on the forehand, you work on gtting him light in front. But the final goal is to get him more balanced on the hindquarters.
Depending on the capability of the rider who is doing the schooling, it can take years to get there very slowly. And I would say even with a very good trainer putting in an honest amount of training rides, it’s going to take 6 months or a year to start seeing a horse really develop the muscles to carry himself in a different way.
If the rider or the trainer don’t really have a clue, then the horse just continues on the forehand with the head rolled behind the vertical until they go lame after 5 years of struggling to do First Level.
The gymnastics I have seen make an improvement in a horse include lateral work inhand, and under saddle walk and then trot, done well before the trot work is “needed” for a test. And lots of attention to stretching over the back, using the hind legs, tracking up. You will see the ab muscles start to develop, and these are what helps the horse lift his back and use himself correctly.
Just going around the ring w t c “ad nauseum” will make no change to the horse’s basic carriage, and if the rider thinks of basic flatwork training as “ad naseum,” then they have missed the point and are unlikely to be creating change or to recognize if it does start to happen.
I complemented one eventer in training on her mare’s impressive ab muscles, and she laughed and said she always worried she was about to colic because of the visible muscles. I think she was serious. Not a clue about what she was doing right, let alone wrong!
I had this exact horse once upon a time, had this exact problem, and tried this exact bit.
The short response: it did not work for me, because of the side effects you’ve already discovered of riding in this type of bit. It escalated when my horse figured out that he could duck behind the vertical and live there (not just reacting off of pressure/contact/a bad moment with the hand but actively seeking to fall BTV with no prompting). Having your horse’s face (proverbially) disappear from contact is…disconcerting and I generally advise people whose horses do not take to this bit to ditch it and find something else.
Some bits I did actually use to better effect: D-ring waterford (nothing for a horse to lean on, useful in my situation). Do not advise if you have busy hands. My guy took to this quite well. We also had some pretty solid success with a (mullen mouth) pelham that I had two reins on (no converter, not only one rein). The primary rein was sufficient 98% of the time but having the curb rein when things were getting amped up made the half halt go through in the rides that reminded the horse he couldn’t drive the bus on his own, so to speak. Again - this can take some time to gain the finesse on how to use properly so if jumping is the issue, work the bit on the flat and over poles on the ground (and then gymnastics over fences) before actually putting it to the test in a course/questions you typically have problems in. Do not be unfair to the horse and slap it on, test it out, without having developed the proper feel and ability to use it.
At the end of the day I ended up staying in a french link - but picked up a drop nose band. A drop nose band, properly fitted & adjusted (I see some these days that are so, so low…) kept the half halt coming through even in the more enthusiastic moments and also never inhibited our ability to keep nice connection (flat or otherwise).
The thing about bits(and any equipment) is that they are only ever as effective as the least common denominator. In this case, that’s the person using it. “Bitting up” often is introducing equipment that requires specific skill (timing, dexterity, sensitivity) to deploy correctly. Just putting a bit in and then taking a horse for a spin over a course (or whatever situation typically is that which escalates to create problems) doesn’t set anyone up for success. Riders need to take the time to learn the equipment (timing, application of strength/force…how much or how little?, release, etc) well before actually putting it to the test in the “challenge” situations. It’s kind of like drivers - if someone’s grown up driving a toyota camry and is super familiar with those brakes/acceleration (serviceable but not spectacular), you don’t just slap them in a Bugatti Veyron and set them on a racetrack saying “there go brake better now”.
IPEsq thank you. You sound exactly like my trainer and that’s exactly what she told me to do.
I apologize if my wording of “ad nauseum” came off as complaining about flat work. I simply mean that we spend 95% of our time doing flat work and he is proficient in the flat work. It’s not perfect because I am not and neither is he. We enjoy flatwork. It’s a priority. I think in hindsight we should have schooled over poles or not jump at all on the first day we used the elevator.
Edre, that is why my trainer suggested using the Waterford. He has never ever been behind the vertical and he has never disappeared behind the vertical.
I feel like in a perfect world, all horses would have proper training to go in a snaffle in any scenario. But that isn’t the case. Which is why different equipment and bits exist. I see all the time upper level horses that need stronger bits on stadium and cross country because they get strong. I don’t think it’s always an indicator of a lack of training or holes in training. In what scenario would using something other than a snaffle be okay? Surely most of us feel similar in that the training should nearly always result in a snaffle mouth 100% of the time. But again, I don’t think that’s always the case with stronger horses.
My point is not that dressage will give the horse a snaffle mouth, necessarily.
My point is that dressage correctly done will help a horse build the muscles to carry himself upright without falling on the forehand.
Falling on the forehand and bolting are two different things.
A horse can be totally balanced and uphill and still be too strong for a particular rider.
A horse can be on the forehand, heavy, but dopey and not putting out much speed at all.
The horse needs to be schooled in the correct way to carry himself. If your horse is on the forehand he is already functiionally inverted, and when you bit him up more strongly, you raise his head and the inversion becomes unmistakable.
The aim of dressage is to create a horse that can move its center of gravity back and not be on the forehand. That doesn’t mean the horse might not bolt or get too strong for a novice rider under some circumstances, You might still want a stronger bit for that horse. But when you use that bit, the horse will collect rather than invert, just like when you use the curb in the double bridle on a dressage horse that is ready for this.
Dropping on the forehand and being too strong for the particular rider are two separate problems, and dropping on the forehand is not solved by bitting up if the horse cannot carry himself correctly yet.
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