I’m writing an article on Horsemanship (a la NE Finals), could you guys spew (I know you’re capable of this!) some ideas in how a horsemanship test and/or practicum could be encorporated into one (or more) or the national eq finals. There’s lots of legistics when you start thinking about it …
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
[B]The “audience” for upper level eq classes are less likely to be in a caretaking position, so the knowledge that would be important for them to know/understand might be more related to the whys and hows of riding, tack, what impacts way of going (shoeing, basic conformation), etc.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lots of ponyclubbers are not in direct caretaking positions, either, but board their horses out. Fewer & fewer pc kids come from horsey families nowadays.
However, they must still learn about caretaking. IOW, find out from the trainer or boarding stable owner, or horse owner if the child doesn’t have their own horse & is borrowing one, all the facts about feed and care, shots and dewormings, etc.
I see your point, though, and the standards would still offer a start for people looking for ideas. Below is just a small sample of what they are asked in their oral exam. BTW, “pony” means either horse or pony. It’s shorter than saying both.
C2: Recognize & describe good & bad shoeing.
Explain reasons for equipment used on own pony for flat work and over fences.
Name five basic conformation qualities that you want in a pony for your own use.
Name & locate the following unsoundnesses: ringbone, curb, bowed tendons, sidebone, spavin, navicular, splint, thoroughpin, sprains.
C3: Describe good & bad points of conformation of own pony.
Know what conformation points might contribute to the following blemishes or unsoundnesses: bowed tendon, curb, ringbone, sidebone, navicular, interfering, overreaching, forging, splint.
Explain the use & function of equipment used on own pony for flat and over fence work.
Describe basic actions of snaffle, curb, pelham.
Does that help, J. Turner?
[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 11-01-2000).]
mabey the people could have their choice to either take a test on horse care or do an oral report on a topic mailed to them a few weeks in advanced
steve
Another thing I just thought of—I was big in FFA while in high school and competed on the Horse Evaluation team at the state level, it is run almost the same as the 4H. We had to judge 6 conformation classes, mostly QH, arabs, and appys and six performance classes on the flat, both western and english and QH or arab. One class was also an equitation class. After scoring the classes and taking notes, we were told which four classes we had to give oral reasons on. Oral reasons are basically that, you tell why you placed them the way you did but you have to follow a specific format. It sounds easy, but trust me, IT’S NOT! At the national level and at state for some associations, they also take a written, multiple choice knowledge exam. I’m not sure what type questions they ask, but I heard it was basic horsemanship and care. Just another thought to go along with my pony club reference.
[This message has been edited by luvmywonderpony (edited 11-01-2000).]
My goodnessÂ… so many interesting ideas since I last had time to check this thread! Here goes (not in any particular order):
Cactuskate:
Â"Sometimes kids that have performance issues with memorizing and taking tests will find that they do much BETTER with those same tests when it relates to horses. Something they have BURNING desire to be involved in. Maybe if they break through those barriers while enjoying their horse activities, the next time they are faced with that situation at school their performance will improve.Â"
IÂ’m not sure that just loving what youÂ’re studying is the issue. If studying and taking tests are not your strongpoint, itÂ’s going to be tough no matter what the subject is. But, maybe others have different experiences.
However, I LOVE this:
Â"Couldn’t there be a part of a program that involved lectures or “field trips”? Or is all time to be spent on TOP of the horses, rather than BESIDE them once in awhile?Â"
Where my dtr rides, they do field trips, visits with the vet/farrier/chiro, course design, horse care contests, etc. etc. Too bad none of this gets Â"testedÂ" in the show ring.
Brilyntrip:
I guess if the written part were only 20% it wouldnÂ’t be TOO bad, but IÂ’d still prefer a different measure.
Pwynnnorman:
I agree with all of your suggestions about demonstrating knowledge in a practical way – again, these are things that a well-rounded rider should be able to do, IMHO. And I think you are right on the money about the problems with written tests. (Here in NY we’re struggling with this issue regarding state-given school tests, but that’s another thread on another bb 
)
Bertie, Flash44, JAGold:
All excellent ideas: hands-on grooming tests, discussion rather than written measures, evaluating horses, handling horses, etc. etc. All of these things would SO help to even the playing field for the kids who really know their stuff vs. the kids who can get by with a little bit of posing. Or, as JTurner put it: Â"Â…pretty hunters and riders who can only ride simple show ring courses on buted, longed horsesÂ"
My personal preference, though, would be to have some way of building this sort of thing into the process somewhere before you get to the finals. It wouldnÂ’t be practical, of course, at each and every show, but to leave it until ONLY the finals wouldnÂ’t really get the job done, I donÂ’t think. Then,when you got to the finals, youÂ’d still be comparing apples to apples, rather than giving the Â"orangesÂ" a chance.
Finally, I just HAVE to comment on this one, Twister:
Â"At a show she judged, she asked her four finalists what type of bit their horse was wearing. None of them knew.Â" You have GOT to be kidding!! 
Pretty sad isn’t it?
pwynnnorman, I have to respectfully disagree. I don’t think it takes and extraordinary amount of desire, nor does it take caring full-time for your own horse, to learn the practical things being discussed here. I think it just takes the attitude that this is part of learning to ride and be with horses.
Like the other poster you mentioned, my dtr also comes from a decidedly non-horsey family. She only began owning her own horse less than a year ago, and we too pay board rather than doing full-care. Prior to that, she rode school horses or did share-leases. Nevertheless, from the outset, she was expected by her trainer to learn how to handle and care for the horses. She has spent numerous hours over the summers and on days off at the barn, using that extra time to become an experienced horse person. Now, at age almost-14, she teaches all of this to other, less experienced students at her barn.
I still think it could be done, if it were a priority.
And in case you’re wondering, she didn’t need to get into pony club b/c she’s learning all she needs to learn where she is now, plus getting to show on the regular (local) h/j circuit.
I’m writing an article on Horsemanship (a la NE Finals), could you guys spew (I know you’re capable of this!) some ideas in how a horsemanship test and/or practicum could be encorporated into one (or more) or the national eq finals. There’s lots of legistics when you start thinking about it …
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
I think this idea is superb! However, I think we would need to keep the “audience” in mind - and by this, I mean who is being tested. The Pony Club “audience” is seen to be youngsters who take care of their own ponies and horses (or at least have some hand in doing so); therefore, horse CARE would be vital. The “audience” for upper level eq classes are less likely to be in a caretaking position, so the knowledge that would be important for them to know/understand might be more related to the whys and hows of riding, tack, what impacts way of going (shoeing, basic conformation), etc.
It seems to me that the “audience” for the BigEq classes is commonly considered to be the “trainers of tomorrow”. So caretaking knowledge WOULD be an important thing for them to acquire, even if they don’t have that responsibility now.
[B]Questions also should take into consideration geography…when I had a barn in SC, several of my students rode in an Open Eq class (back in those days) and Joey Darby (judge) asked each a question. All we railbirds saw was 15 kids shaking their heads, with very puzzled expressions. My kids were Pony Clubbers, too, and I couldn’t believe that none of them would know the answer to any reasonable question. The question? “What is ‘boyum’?” “WHAT???” says I. “Boyum” says they. “I have no clue. What did he say it was?” “Something you put on the horse’s shoes to keep from slipping on ice.” “OH! BORIUM!” Like teenagers in SC (show was in Charleston) would know ICE, much less borium!!!
I think a written test (whether it be completely multiple choice or include a brief essay) is a fantastic idea!!![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As we have seen on this BB, there are many different “correct” answers. If you are going to ask questions, you need to specify the reference they are called from.
In Pony Club this is the Pony Club Manual. I remember from my Pony Club days that there were several areas in which the “real answer” (what we actually did, and what our instructors told us to do) was different from the “official answer” in the book. This was in the days when the same manual was used on both sides of the atlantic, and some of the horse management technoques were just not applicable here.
If you don’t have a reference source, you are going to have one judge who thinks the right answer to: “What are the average amount of concentrates and roughage fed to a 1000 pound horse in moderate work?” is “2 lb of concentrate and 5 lb of hay”, and another who thinks the right answer is “12 lb of concentrate and 30 lb of hay”, depending on what type of horses they are used to working with.
Excellent discussion and ideas!I think using the Pony CLub tests as a basis is an excellent idea.
One thing to remember about testing in Pony Club, if you do something differently then the book, and you have a solid understanding of what you are doing and WHY, and it makes sense, then you are not necessarily penalized. The important part is proving you understand the what and why of your actions, both on the horse and on the ground. If you have a problem riding, can you articulate that problem and fix it? If there is something wrong, do you know what to do? Can you figure it out?
As a lower level PC examiner, I have found myself in fascinating discussions with the kids, and I’ve always tried to make the testing process a learning process as well.
Part of the requirements for the now-defunct ASPCA Henry Bergh class ( the original 3’medal - George Morris was the first winner) was three questions asked of the top 6 (or more) riders. I remember the panic, yet I wish this were still done!
I disagree with pwynn’s statement, “Whoever said riders should also be horsemen in the same sense as, say, stablemanagers? Their trainers often aren’t, so where would they get this information?” From talking to and reading their articles, some people believe the problem with our jumper system is that we aren’t producing complete horsemen. That’s why the Germans and the Brazilians, etc. are beating our fannies. They know how to maintain the longevity of their horses.
So, what’s our purpose?
This is the question we should be asking for equitation division. Is it an educational or developmental system? An end in itself? Or other ends … To produce international caliber riders? To produce one dimensional riders? To just have fun? To have pretty hunters and riders who can only ride simple show ring courses on buted, longed horses? Some combination of the above, or others?
Well, I was also looking for ideas on how we could add a horsemanship aspect to the Medal, Maclay, USET, or WIHS. The legistics are far reaching. I was talking to the parents of Katie Battison (for whom the NE Horsemanship is named) and they are trying to find a way to encourage horsemanship’s inclusion in a 3’6" national final. NE has a written (part multiple choice, part fill in the blank – part of the horse/tack, etc.), then the top 12 (I think) move on to the practicum during which they spend about half an hour with the judge completing tasks and explaining them. Their first round score of Medal Finals is added in.
The legistics of 300 kids taking a test are enormous – Scantron would have to be used.
When would the testing take place? At Harrisburg? Or New York (etc.)? Where? If there were multiple sites (like at Regionals) different tests would have to be developed to avoid cheating. As part of the Maclay,if it took place at Regionals, would the practicum take place there too? After or before their qualifying round? Or at the Garden? Could the kids who had the top scores on the test receive a “bye” to Finals if they didn’t qualify under normal placings? (Perhaps as long as they were in the top 50% of the class and had no major errors, i.e. stops) This might reward the person who was a good rider, but not on a fancy horse who could put in a solid, if not brilliant round, and allow him/her to go on to finals to compete for the horsemanship award, the practicum and riding score to come at finals?
Should it be a separate award or a standard part of the Maclay, Medal, etc.? At NE’s some of the top kids don’t bother with the Horsemanship test. I don’t know why. Sarah Willeman didn’t take the test last year, although I’m sure she’d do very well. She is a very smart girl. Should it be a new finals in itself and how would we make it valued by the h/j community? What would qualifying procedures be like?
LOTS, of questions. I can’t wait to write the article and interview those on my list!
Just my two cents: as a city kid from a relatively non-horsey family, I’ve found it very difficult to acquire the amount of knowledge that I have about horsemanship. Boarding is not FAIR!!! lol. I mean, it means less work for the owners, but still, I would so much rather do all of the work and have all of the knowledge and experience in return. I hate not being capable of taking care of my horse on my own.
I never got to compete in the Eqs. or anything like that, but in my opinion I think you should look at the Pony Club tests and how they run them. My friend is in the pony club and she was telling me how they had to know all sorts of first aid, information on equipment, hardware, etc. They also have their horses and tack inspected for cleanliness and have to do all of the work for their horses care and their eqipment, ie NO GROOMS OR TRAINERS. They aren’t even allowed in the barn area while a competition or test is going on, only the riders can. I think those would be good ways to test horsemanship, or at least a good model.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
[B]A written test covering health issues:
-what are the normal vital signs of a horse at rest
-what are the average amount of concentrates and roughage fed to a 1000 pound horse in moderate work
-name 3 vaccinations and describe the causes and symptoms of the diseases they prevent
-name and describe 3 types of hay/grain
-where is the (body part) and what is it’s function
-what is (disease, health problem) and how do you remedy it
Maybe throw in some training questions as well
-what is a simple jumping exercise for straightening out a horse that twists to the right over a jump
-what is a simple exercise to keep a horse from rushing it’s fences
[This message has been edited by Flash44 (edited 11-01-2000).][/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flash - this is exactly the kind of test that you have to take at the ANRCs (Affiliated National Riding Commission). At ANRCs, your written score doesn’t count toward the final standings, but ribbons are handed out and there is plenty of glory involved if you get one. The test was hard - technical and tricky - the two years I had to take it. They asked striding word problems, various diseases, their symptoms and cures, first aid(and not just basic!), etc. Overall, the test took anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes to complete and most of it wasn’t multiple choice. I think our team studied harder for that phase than any of our college classes!
[This message has been edited by FlyingCircus (edited 11-01-2000).]
In spite of being a PC graduate, I have a problem with the written test concept: it’s too far removed from the nature of the competition. Equitation has to do with function, style and correctness on the horse. Whoever said riders should also be horsemen in the same sense as, say, stablemanagers? Their trainers often aren’t, so where would they get this information? From books? That’s not necessarily practical.
I know many will disagree with me here, but I’d argue that the horsemanship should be related to the discipline. It would seem jsut as odd to me to have pony hunter riders take a written test on stablemanagement.
What if, instead, riders were tested on their knowledge about RIDING? I can think of ways to do that: 1.) have them view and critique others’ rounds (or a demonstration round) or 2.) have them plan and ride a course without assistance–a course which would ask specific questiosn about their riding ability in exactly the same way that show jumping courses (and USET classes) do, and/or 3.) have them ride either each others’ horses or a set of horses specifically chosen for the task. All of these things would have to be done without assistance and probably should be NOT be prelimary round matters (for safety’s safe).
As a teacher, I CRINGE to think of all the problems inherent in a written test, “multiple guess” or otherwise, especially among a group which isn’t necessarily accustomed to writing about its horse involvement (unlike PC’ers, who do so from D’s on). Also, writing that test would be a challenge–all tests are. It’s tough to write questiosn that are unbiased and clearly worded.
This is a great idea J.T. I would favor the separate award. Some excellent horsepeople just don’t take written tests well, and they should be allowed to excel as riders. But those that have knowledge and test well should be rewarded…perhaps a scholarship?
I’m surprised to hear that Sarah didn’t take the test last year. She’s a good horsewoman (I hope you interview her). I know that most of the kids do take the test at the NE Finals, including the top riders, and they’re very serious about it!
Harrisburg might be the best place for this type of test. Although it would be great to have similar competitions during the season. Harrisburg seems more oriented to the kids on junior weekend than the NHS (at least when the NHS has a full schedule happening). Best of luck with this idea!
[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 11-02-2000).]
Excellent point LMWP!! I’m glad somesaid it!! There are so few horseman anymore> I took on a student from CA, Large Ponies. I was constantly catching her dad doing most of the tacking up for her lessons. Finally I pulled him aside and asked him not to help her. He looked at me and said, “She doesn’t know how. the other barn in CA did it for her.” I was totally shocked, like having the chaueffer fill up the tank, polish the car, bring it to you, But we are talking about a living thing that we need to develop a special bond with. You just cannot do that by never interacting with the horse, other than on its back. The bond and the trust starts on the ground.
Written tests (multiple choice of course!) on nutrition, health, anatomy, the horse industry, horse care, the ASHA rule book, identifying pieces of tack and equipment…the list could go on…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
[B] As we have seen on this BB, there are many different “correct” answers.
If you don’t have a reference source, you are going to have one judge who thinks the right answer to: “What are the average amount of concentrates and roughage fed to a 1000 pound horse in moderate work?” is “2 lb of concentrate and 5 lb of hay”, and another who thinks the right answer is “12 lb of concentrate and 30 lb of hay”, depending on what type of horses they are used to working with.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you’re right, the judges can’t be idiots. My daughter’s horse is an air fern, the original easy keeper: she eats hardly anything and gets fat on what other horses would lose weight on. When she is examined she has to know averages for her own area of the country and for different types of horses, but she has to have the confidence and knowledge to explain to the examiner that this will not work for her own horse & why it doesn’t & what she does to keep her own horse happy & fit. Any half-decent judge should know if the candidate knows what they’re talking about or is faking it.
Same with immunizations. She needs to know what is recommended in her part of the country & why. We take it a step farther and teach the upper-level kids where our part of the US differs from out West or down South & why. That way if they should ever get an examiner who says, “well, what about xxxxx?” the kids know not only WHAT is done differently, but WHY. Interesting discussion usually follows between examiner and candidate.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
[B]Equitation has to do with function, style and correctness on the horse. Whoever said riders should also be horsemen in the same sense as, say, stablemanagers? Their trainers often aren’t, so where would they get this information? From books? That’s not necessarily practical.
Well I believe this is the point. Maybe the trainers need to give more thought to the depth of their programs.
Granted Equitation Medal Classes are just that, Equitation, but I hear that maybe we ought to deepen the base of knowledge for the riders. And it would follow that it would be the trainer’s responsibility to provide that extra depth of knowledge.
Couldn’t there be a part of a program that involved lectures or “field trips”? Or is all time to be spent on TOP of the horses, rather than BESIDE them once in awhile?
I can think of so many learning opportunities, the list could go on and on and on.
[This message has been edited by Cactuskate (edited 11-01-2000).]
I, too am not completely wild about the knowledge testing at the levels some have expressed here. We ARE talking kids here and, as horse crazy as I was as a kid, I didn’t learn how to take a pulse or learn a whole lot about specific nutritional needs until I entered the work force.
I do think some basic knowledge of horses and tack would be good. I remember going to a judges clinic where Kip Rosenthal was the clinician. This was right after the question was reintroduced as a test. At a show she judged, she asked her four finalists what type of bit their horse was wearing. None of them knew.
