Encorporating Horsemanship into Eq Finals

[J_Turner]

Grooming isn’t relevant? Oh my goodness, what is the world coming to? How could they hire good grooms if you don’t know what the job description is … LOL

I agree that the Europeans are probably hands off at the top, but at some point they were “hands on.” Peter Wylde said in an interview that when he went to work for trainer (in Switzerland, I think), he did stalls, groomed, etc. I believe this is pretty standard in their developement. I read somewhere that Anky picks stalls and grooms her horses.

Well … here are the “C3” Pony Club standards. Some of them might not be applicable, but many seem reasonable for the big eq kids to know.

Conditioning

• Discuss condition of own pony.
• Know normal vital signs of own pony at rest and after work.
• Discuss different methods of conditioning for various activities.
  Nutrition
• List six classes of nutrients needed by pony and primary feeds that provide them.
• For your area, know availability, cost, and origin of hay and grain needed to meet nutritional requirements of own pony or
  horse.
  Stable Management
• Discuss safety practices, both human and equine, around barn,including fire prevention.
• Describe three toxic plants in your area, when most toxic, which parts are toxic, symptoms of poisoning
  Pony Parts, Conformation & Lameness
• Describe good and bad points of conformation of own pony.
• Know what conformation points might contribute to the follow-ing blemishes or unsoundnesses; bowed tendon, curb, ring-bone,
  sidebone, navicular, interfering, overreaching, forging, splint.
  Travel Safety
• Discuss preparation of trailer and vehicles for safe, comfortable travel.
  Record Book
• Record Book must be kept up to date and brought to test.
• Must have records for at least 1 year prior to testing.
  Health Care & Veterinary Knowledge
• Discuss causes and signs of the following: colic, azoturia, laminitis, heaves, choking, tooth problems, skin diseases.
• Discuss symptoms and preventive measures for the following common diseases: influenza, equine encephalomyelitis, tetanus, strangles, rhinopneumonitis.
• Discuss internal parasites and the damage they can cause to pony.
  Discuss teeth to include: concept that teeth grow continuously, and baby replaced by permanent; location of incisors and molars; number of teeth (male & female).
  Teaching
  C-3 candidate must bring a letter from DC that he/she is assist-ing his/her club in simple mounted instructional program for
  D-level Pony Club members with supervision.
  Prepare a lesson plan and present an unmounted lesson of choice from D-2 or D-3 standards to D-1 or D-2 Pony Club members
  (limit 10 minutes).

[Flash44]

A written test covering health issues:
-what are the normal vital signs of a horse at rest
-what are the average amount of concentrates and roughage fed to a 1000 pound horse in moderate work
-name 3 vaccinations and describe the causes and symptoms of the diseases they prevent
-name and describe 3 types of hay/grain
-where is the (body part) and what is it’s function
-what is (disease, health problem) and how do you remedy it

Maybe throw in some training questions as well
-what is a simple jumping exercise for straightening out a horse that twists to the right over a jump
-what is a simple exercise to keep a horse from rushing it’s fences

[This message has been edited by Flash44 (edited 11-01-2000).]

[HSM]

Just my own little bitty 2-cents worth: lots of kids who have trouble with studying and memorizing and taking written tests find the horse “arena” a place where they can shine. Unlike school, they can demonstrate what they know, without the stress of test-taking. So, if there was a way to demonstrate/measure horsemanship (which, btw, is a GREAT idea) without throwing in a written exam, that would be ideal, IMHO.

[J_Turner]

3’6" kids shouldn’t know how to take a pulse? I disagree. I think this level is analogous to A Pony Club (prelim eventing,I believe), and these h/j kids should know everything and A PCer would. The junior jumpers (which many of these kids are doing) are akin to the prelim jumpers in terms of height, etc, both several levels below advanced events (CCI***/****) or Open Jumpers.

[heelsdown]

There are a lot of good ideas here and I have to add my own. I don’t think written tests are the answer though I won’t rule them out. What I envision is perhaps the top 12 of every class enters phase #3.

Each rider is presented with a handfull of cards, they pick three. They have a few moments to read and devise their responses (which they SHOULD already know.) The cards would be shuffled for each rider, and the questions changed for each show! Avoiding the nebulous questions like how many quarts of grain to feed, that can differ so much. Concentrate on the black and white answers, there are plenty of them.

The card may ask them to explain and point out all the parts of the hind leg, or define various shoeing terms, or list symptoms of colic. Another card may ask them to name and describe a dozen different types of jumps, the origin of the terms, etc…

Another might be about first aid, or even the actual parts of a saddle, it slays me to see how many young people out there don’t even know what or where the skirt is! Or even what a cavesson is (yes, I had to explain this term to a Maclay rider recently!)

These cards would be mixed up and cover a wide variety of topics. Heck they could even make them bandage a leg and explain why they were doing it… For the final the riders who haven’t gone yet would have to be in an “isolation booth” so that they couldn’t hear the other answers, just in case they drew the same questions. For regular classes this could be done in front of the judges and the questions and responses recorded and published later. Time limits on responses would be limited.

I think if it were done in this way, even broadcast to the audience during finals it would perk up the competitors, make the riders more well rounded, AND educate and entertain the spectators! “Point to the croup…” I betcha there are some Medal riders who don’t where that is.

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 11-04-2000).]

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luvmywonderpony:
… in my opinion I think you should look at the Pony Club tests and how they run them. They also have their horses and tack inspected for cleanliness and have to do all of the work for their horses care and their eqipment, ie NO GROOMS OR TRAINERS. They [trainers]aren’t even allowed in the barn area while a competition or test is going on,…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good idea. Pony club competitions are called rallies, and parents come in with their kids, but as of, say, 7:30 or 8:00 a.m. parents must leave the stabling area and are forbidden to even speak to their children or have any contact with them.

If you’re a parent you get to spend a relaxing day at the horse show. You can volunteer or read a book or knit or talk or just watch the competition. No whiny brats to make you be a slave. And needless to say, the kids love it. No whiny parents nagging them at every turn or telling them what they should be doing. You end up with very independent, capable young horsepeople.

You can go to www.ponyclub.org and click on “Standards” on the left-hand side. Then go to “Show Me the Standards.” You need Acrobat Reader.

It gives standards for riding and “Horse Management Expectations” which sounds like what you’re looking for. It covers nutrition, stable management, veterinary care, conditioning, shoeing, and much, much more.

Ds are for beginners (D1 is the first, then you move up to D2, then D3). You probably want to check out the C Standards (same again: C1, C2, C3). If a medal kid knows C3 stuff that is enough to indicate solid horsemanship knowledge.

USPC goes on to have even higher standards at B, H-A, and A levels. These upper levels are very demanding.

Check it out at www.ponyclub.org.

[Magnolia]

They could have a grooming type class - They groom the horse, explain why and what leg wraps are used, tell why the horse has what king of shoes, explain the feeding program etc.etc. ~ almost like a job interview type situation.
OR, the judge could ask a rider more riding related questions. I saw a test once at an IHSA show where the riders had to jump a horse over 3 fences of their choosing (in order to best show off the horse) and explain why they chose what. (For example, I did the long line to show off the horses stride, and then the oxer because he has nice form, or I did the roll back because he is so balanced in turns.

[Bertie]

Aren’t equitation classes also called ‘Horsemanship’ classes…?

Another good idea (as J. Turner said, “a la NE Finals”) is the practicum test, where the exhibitor brings their grooming box along for a hands-on quiz/discussion with the judge (who I think is usually a vet) about soundness, grooming, etc. using a donated horse.

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 11-01-2000).]

[pwynnnorman]

What’s our purpose? A good question, J. Turner.

I think it is not practical anymore to expect teenagers to learn about subjects not directly connected to their major (competition) interest. I just don’t think they’d do it (at least, not in sufficient numbers to ever support such an idea in a significant way). I’ve taken the idealist’s stance often enough around here, but this time, I’m for practicality.

I’m not sure that the top European riders ARE in the trenches that much any more. There just isn’t the time. Our top riders aren’t either. Knowing parts of the horse and tack, including the mechanics and correct fitting (in the case of the horse, correct conformation) of each is relevant to riding, but taking temperatures and grooming–I think realistically, in this day of specialization, those things AREN’T necessary to ride well at all. Recognizing a lame horse or conformation faults that would limit the horse’s ability, that’s relevant. Shoeing and conditioning and recognizing basic signs of ill-health, that’s relevant.

I just think one would have to be realistic rather than idealistic, though. (Can’t finish. Gotta get to class.)

[lisa]

My current trainer went through PC to C-3, I believe. In her test, they pulled a horse out of the pasture, and she had to evaluate its age and conformation, and how that conformation would apply to its movement. She then had to ride or longe the horse, I believe. And she was 14, I believe, at the time.

Regarding basic horse care and instruction: My previous trainer would have what she called “in barn” lessons on bad weather days where she would cover such topics. But you know what? More times than not, parents/kids would cancel these lessons because they weren’t going to be able to ride! So sometimes it’s not the trainer’s lack of trying that’s the problem. It’s the uneducated parents and/or the kids who don’t think it is important to know where the hock is… just where the saddle goes…

[Inverness]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anne FS:
[B] Good idea. Pony club competitions are called rallies, and parents come in with their kids, but as of, say, 7:30 or 8:00 a.m. parents must leave the stabling area and are forbidden to even speak to their children or have any contact with them.

That is the best idea I’ve heard yet! When I was an age-group swimmer, parents were banned from even watching the workouts and were not allowed on the pool deck during meets. It was great for the kids, coach, and parents.

[Cactuskate]

HSM, what about this thought though.

Sometimes kids that have performance issues with memorizing and taking tests will find that they do much BETTER with those same tests when it relates to horses. Something they have BURNING desire to be involved in. Maybe if they break through those barriers while enjoying their horse activities, the next time they are faced with that situation at school their performance will improve.

Anyone seen this theory at work?

I also agree the BigEq kids are probably not on the self-care program. However this would not prevent them from learning the correct care of their “rides”. The point being they must be more than “riders”. They must develop into “horsemen”. They are the future of our sport.

[ponyjumper4]

[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
[B]Equitation has to do with function, style and correctness on the horse. Whoever said riders should also be horsemen in the same sense as, say, stablemanagers? Their trainers often aren’t, so where would they get this information? From books? That’s not necessarily practical.

That is part of the problem. The US is producing too many “riders” and not nearly enough horseman. I’ve seen too many kids that hop on their ponies, go in the ring, hop off and hand them over. Some don’t ever groom their horses or tack them up and some don’t even know how, but yet they’re “good riders”. I don’t know, to me you’re not worth much if you don’t put in the work. I certainly don’t like anyone grooming my ponies or tacking them up, I like to do it all myself. But then again, that’s just me.

[brilyntrip]

I think any 3’6" rider should know at the very least what is the healthy temperature of a horse at rest is and how to take it. Where to take the pulse and what it should be at rest.In addition what is Laminitis or Founder,why it might affect a horse ,what a support bandage is and how to execute it.Certain parts of the horse ,signs of colic etc.The pony club manual doesn’t need to be used but for some things it is the perfect manual of choice.

[RuralRider]

I’ve been following this thread with great interest.I co-lead a 4-H group of 17 kids ages 8 - 15, only about a third of the kids have their own horses, and most of those are recent aquisitions. Almost all of them ride/or have ridden at my barn. They compete at local schooling shows, 4-H shows, and its a really big deal for the few like my daughter who get to go to the 3 day State 4-H show. I don’t think any of them will ever get to show in the big Eq classes. BUT they ALL know the parts of the horse and tack , common illnesses, grooming , breeds, etc. and they all study very hard to compete in the local, county and state quiz bowl competitions (similar to PC knowdown) They also compete in horsemanship classes where they are asked questions by the judge. I have been very proud of how well they have done, and I think it makes their experience much more well rounded than it would be if they just showed up at the barn to ride, and never learned how to care for their horses or the school horses. I think it would be a great idea to include things like this in the Eq. finals.

[Jumphigh83]

Great idea…BUT…who is going to teach this to the “trainers”???

[Coreene]

I love all the ideas mentioned. I would also love to see a more extensive test of flatwork, where they are doing a dressage-ish test from memory. If you did something, say, which involved a selection of movements from second level while, of course, not requiring the horse to be in a second level frame (but of course on the bit).

Richard Spooner once did some final, can’t remember which (something California), where they had to submit their own flat tests. Ginny asked whether he was going for Grand Prix dressage in it, but he did win.

[Flash44]

If you can’t name all the horse’s body parts, how can you follow your trainers instructions or understand the reasoning behind how your position and movement affect your horse’s performance? And there is a basic level of knowledge I would expect from any rider, medal or not. I was a horseless horse crazy girl at age 10 memorizing horse care books. I think someone who spends several hours a day in a barn and riding can bother to educate themselves about the care of their horses. Don’t expect them to be experts, but they should be functional.

[Anne_FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
3’6" kids shouldn’t know how to take a pulse? I disagree. I think this level is analogous to A Pony Club (prelim eventing,I believe), and these h/j kids should know everything and A PCer would.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

J. Turner, just to clarify: knowing how to “measure and record pulse, temperature and respiration of own pony at rest in front of examiner” is C-2 level, well below A pony club standards.

Pony club standards are TOUGH. Frankly, asking medal winners to meet A-level pony club standards will be well-nigh impossible for most of them. It is a tremendous amount of work. When you see C-3, B, or A pony club ratings after someone’s name you know they have met stringent, in-depth standards. But, using USPC standards as a starting-point for ideas is still a great plan.

Last Sunday I attended a C-2 rating where all five candidates passed. The youngest was 12 and the oldest 18.

I believe you now need to be 14 to test for C-3, but as you can see, young horsemen (12 yrs. in this case)are very capable of knowledge like pulse & respiration.

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 11-02-2000).]

[pwynnnorman]

But reconsider TequilaSun’s point: she CAN’T. Consider that her lifestyle may such that she can’t get to the barn, stay in the barn, do that stuff in the barn that would give her that knowledge. Does that mean she cannot be a competitive Big Eq rider? Or maybe what you mean is that she should find a way to “pay her dues” in the knowledge department, instead of just in the wallet department: force her to do the Peter Wylde route is she really wants “it” that bad?

Problem, folks. As Pony Club can attest: fewer and fewer young people (especially somewhat priviledged ones) “want it” that bad!

Realistically speaking, you just can’t ask the generation of riders who can fly down to FL and/or show every weekend to be in the barn (instead of on the horse) that much. It’d be nice if you could, but you can’t turn back the clock.

I’m a graduate H-A. I believe strongly in the “Pony Club way,” but it just ain’t and won’t ever be popular enough (in this country) for such ideas to fly for h-j/eq. Indeed, I dare say that many (not all) who are drawn to h-j/eq choose it instead of PC, CT or dressage because they don’t WANT (or can’t) indulge in the ideals you folks are trying to incorporate.