End of soring and stacked shoes on TWH

[jdobbs64]

These arguments against the HPA sound so much like the arguments against the end of slavery to be sad and laughable all at once.

Those who defended the status quo rose to the challenge set forth by the USDA. The defenders of padded horses included economics, history, religion, legality, social good, and even humanitarianism, to further their arguments.

Defenders of padded horses argued that the sudden end to the Big Lick economy would have had a profound and killing economic impact in middle TN where reliance on Big Lick shows was the foundation of their economy. The local economy around Shelbyville would collapse. The hay crop would dry in the fields. Colts would cease being profitable.

Defenders of the status quo argued that if all the Big Lick horses went flat shod, there would be widespread unemployment and chaos. This would lead to uprisings, bloodshed, and anarchy. They pointed to the mob’s “rule of terror” during the (pick your battle) and argued for the continuation of the status quo, which was providing for affluence and stability for the horse owner’s class and for all free people who enjoyed the bounty of the Big Lick society.

http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=jdobbs64;9038556]
These arguments against the HPA sound so much like the arguments against the end of slavery to be sad and laughable all at once.

Those who defended the status quo rose to the challenge set forth by the USDA. The defenders of padded horses included economics, history, religion, legality, social good, and even humanitarianism, to further their arguments.

Defenders of padded horses argued that the sudden end to the Big Lick economy would have had a profound and killing economic impact in middle TN where reliance on Big Lick shows was the foundation of their economy. The local economy around Shelbyville would collapse. The hay crop would dry in the fields. Colts would cease being profitable.

Defenders of the status quo argued that if all the Big Lick horses went flat shod, there would be widespread unemployment and chaos. This would lead to uprisings, bloodshed, and anarchy. They pointed to the mob’s “rule of terror” during the (pick your battle) and argued for the continuation of the status quo, which was providing for affluence and stability for the horse owner’s class and for all free people who enjoyed the bounty of the Big Lick society.

http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp[/QUOTE]

Too True!

The ASB, Morgan and Hackneywere arguing that the trainers, blacksmiths, etc. would be out of work if the rule applied to THEM. They allegedly collected a bushel full of $$ to hire an attorney to defend their way of life. Of course, now that the smoke has cleared, I’d love to see what benevolent (for the horses who actually make them the money) thing they are doing. You know, for the welfare of the horses. :mad:

[Ladylexie]

The saddlebred people are only worried about being able to cut tails and pad feet. All this as the amount of owners continues to shrink and dwindle…

[morgans4me]

ASB Stars- Is the length of foot on Our Charming Lady was so “immoral” or causing her so much pain that she needed masking drugs to show soundly and brilliantly she would have tested positive. She is very sound and happy in retirement and shows sings of being broken down or being subject to any orthopedic abuse. As to you eluding a soundness issue as why she wasn’t moved down to an amateur or juniors horse, it is not true, and don’t deny that is what you were hoping people would think because it is very clear. The owners wanted to breed her, as if that is any of your business to commenting on, and that is what they did.

Your comments about Scott Bennett DVM being an insider and lying in a hearing for profit are ridiculous. Yes he stands ASB studs, but that doesn’t make him guilty of perjury, nor does that make his opinion (which has a degree to back it up) any less than yours- (which is from a lay persons perspective.)

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it is immoral, wrong, or any of the other of the slurs you pass out. You love to pass out your opinions as gospel truth when they are just your opinions (and you are entitled to them.) If you don’t like i, don’t do it- nobody is going to come into your barn and force you to.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=morgans4me;9038751]
ASB Stars- Is the length of foot on Our Charming Lady was so “immoral” or causing her so much pain that she needed masking drugs to show soundly and brilliantly she would have tested positive. She is very sound and happy in retirement and shows sings of being broken down or being subject to any orthopedic abuse. As to you eluding a soundness issue as why she wasn’t moved down to an amateur or juniors horse, it is not true, and don’t deny that is what you were hoping people would think because it is very clear. The owners wanted to breed her, as if that is any of your business to commenting on, and that is what they did.

Your comments about Scott Bennett DVM being an insider and lying in a hearing for profit are ridiculous. Yes he stands ASB studs, but that doesn’t make him guilty of perjury, nor does that make his opinion (which has a degree to back it up) any less than yours- (which is from a lay persons perspective.)

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it is immoral, wrong, or any of the other of the slurs you pass out. You love to pass out your opinions as gospel truth when they are just your opinions (and you are entitled to them.) If you don’t like i, don’t do it- nobody is going to come into your barn and force you to.[/QUOTE]

I never- not ONCE said that mare was on any drugs. Where do you people get this stuff? Is that what you think helps to sustain your claim that this is all alright? By lying?

I didn’t say that Scott lied- what I said was that this is the industry where he makes the bulk of his living. He is going to work from that perspective. Do I think he is representing all he knows about the subject- no- but then, he wasn’t required to, was he? If you brought in Vets from outside the show horse world, I absolutely know that there would be a very different perspective.

Also, I never said the mare had soundness issues. I said she was a “Pro ride”, which was the case throughout her career. Again- no idea what orifice you are pulling this out of.

Please read for comprehension. And, by the way- you state that the mare "shows sings of being broken down or being subject to any orthopedic abuse. " I am fairly sure that you were attempting to deny that she had issues. I have no knowledge one way or the other.

However, when you have to hang that much foot on a horse, just to get them to break level? That, for me, is ridiculous.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Ladylexie;9038725]
The saddlebred people are only worried about being able to cut tails and pad feet. All this as the amount of owners continues to shrink and dwindle…[/QUOTE]

The Emperor’s new clothes. And still, they just won’t get it…

[CFFarm]

If padded people had faith in the fact that they had the best horse horse they wouldn’t need the accessories. Let the talent, breeding and training show.

[Guilherme]

People who oppose the new regulations may be of good will and they may be scoundrels and they may fall somewhere in between. A person who disagrees with you is not necessarily a liar. A person who presents erroneous facts is not necessarily a liar; they become one if they knew the facts were wrong and put them out anyway to further some interest of theirs.

I looked up the good doctor and he has impressive credentials. He is using those credentials to bolster his arguments. That’s perfectly OK. It is not uncommon for professionals to disagree on some scientific issue (sometimes science is not answer but a process).

An unthinking, rabid response by a person to things they don’t want to hear is actually a Very Bad Thing.

G.

[luvmyhackney]

I know my barn uses some of the top vets in the country, Rood and Riddle and New Bolton, NC State Equine, for various issues, they have never had an issue with the shoeing we have sent there. Rood and Riddle actually padded up our Country horse to help with navicular.

Just cause something is different, doesn’t make it wrong. If top vets at equine hospitals around the country that actually treat and work on our ASB’s don’t think we are injuring our horses, I tend to believe them vs. someone on the internet.

Sorry if you’re not a member, you can still see part of the article. I just don’t see a farrier being a hall of fame member if they were huting horses.
https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/8653-making-and-applying-a-double-nail-package?v=preview

[Amwrider]

I don’t see anyone here defending Big Lick, jdobbs64

Most of the ASB and Morgan people want the Big Lick in TWH to gonaway
because of how that industry has tarred amd feathered our industry
which doesn’t do their practices. People see high steppers with pads and lump us all in together. we are fighting to keep us separated from the TWH in the legislation.

and ASBStars, the ASB and Morgan people have not retained a lawyer nor have they taken up a collection for legal funds. The TWH people did that. They have been asking for ASB and Morgan and Arabian people to donate towards it. Because the ASB Morgan and Arab people have not donated towards their legal fund, the Big Lick people have turned on us and have gotten pretty nasty about it
and want to drag us down with them for not supporting them.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;9040606]

and ASBStars, the ASB and Morgan people have not retained a lawyer nor have they taken up a collection for legal funds. The TWH people did that. They have been asking for ASB and Morgan and Arabian people to donate towards it. Because the ASB Morgan and Arab people have not donated towards their legal fund, the Big Lick people have turned on us and have gotten pretty nasty about it
and want to drag us down with them for not supporting them.[/QUOTE]

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=27066aa448ae1afe72ac801fd&id=20c0efe2c3

If this link doesn’t work- take a look on FB, or the ASHA website at the Press Releases around 10.8.16. The Hackney, Morgan and ASB people all got together to put together their warchest for a defense.

[Amwrider]

I stand corrected. They ran this back in September/October to raise money to send representation to the USDA public meetings I thought. This was during the first comment period.

[ASB_Stars]

I’d be fascinated to hear what they actually ended up using all of the money they collected for. Breed promotion would be a GREAT use of those dollars!!

[D_BaldStockings]

You really think there would be money left after lawyers have had a bite of it?

Well, anyway, I am all for breed promotion. I just hope the perception that ‘Saddlebred people’ only want pads and tailsets can be changed.

Because it is NOT reality.
I am a Saddlebred and half-Saddlebred person and have never done either of those. I have bought horses who at some point in their lives did wear a set or show shoes and One just passed at age 30, another is still going strong at 28, etc.

What a horse does 2% of it’s life ought not define the horse or the owners for their entire lives.

I have always wondered about this ‘Thoroughbred’ horse, Lady Ellen, ridden by Nan Aspinwall in 1911.
San Francisco to New York - solo; on a bet with Buffalo Bill when she worked in his Wild West Show.
And said to be the inspiration for Frank Hopkins ‘created’ stories of distance riding on Hidalgo.
If this isn’t Saddlebred type, I don’t know what it is.

http://www.geringcitizen.com/photos/7506_tn%20Tim%20Nolting%20Column%20979215.jpg

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xr/541549541.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=3&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D0DBB7ACA5B438793F69CBEB11D17B37EA0CD5AAF487605348A55A1E4F32AD3138

No proof, of course.
Saddlebreds today make incredible ‘personal horses’ in many types of tack, western included.
The promotion is usually funded by SS trainers and breeders and parents of riders in the shows, of course.

People fund and promote/spotlight their preferences with their $$.
Them as don’t have the $$ ? Their light stays under a bushel.

I don’t see how bashing any discipline promotes a breed.
Pointing out flaws or room for improvement / alternate methods that will work better and are more humane? Go for it!!

[Guilherme]

The American Saddle Horse Association (I don’t recall the specific name) is one of the oldest “breed” organizations in the country. Don’t the roots go back before the ACW? In those days, however, it was TYPE that counted, not papers in the everyday life of saddle horse owners.* Unless, of course, they were wealthy and could afford to buy “bragging rights.”

Our present difficulties are the direct result of horses loosing their jobs to motorized transport and owners seeking to make money by converting the horse industry to recreation and entertainment.

G.

*Actually this was true across the equine world of the time. And, in the early 20th Century, most of the horses in the U.S. were still used for drayage of some sort. The percentage of good saddle horses was low. So so, in fact, that the Army had trouble buying stock for the Spanish-American War. That difficulty lead to the creation of the Army Remount Service and that would have a profound effect on more than one equine breed.

[D_BaldStockings]

Way back when, ‘American horses’ were of various families and lineages, including Morgans, Early TB and their crosses, Narragansetts, and as the country was settled westward; Mountain Slashers, Copperbottoms, many more.

The distinction of these horses was that they were intended to be ridden and either naturally or with training showed ‘Saddle gaits’ combined with plenty of stamina.

While the American Saddle Horse (later Saddlebred) registry was first to collect pedigrees of horses in their books in 1891 (following Wallace’s Trotting Register for Standardbreds in 1871 and Sanders’ American TB registry in 1873), the types were already known to owners as car makes are today.

During the late 19th century and early 20th century horses were registered in several of the ‘riding horse registries and the Trotting Register’.

TWH were developed out of ‘riding stock’ and breeders were determined to ‘set’ the running walk genetically - which they succeeded in doing. Though the TWH registry formed in 1935, the ‘riding horse’ predated that by many decades.

You might say it came from a rivalry between the Kentucky - Missouri horsemen and the Tennessee horsemen.

Eventually all the registries chose to close the books and there was no more exchange of genes between the breeds and all went their separate ways.

Not to mention that much of the very early pre-Quarter Horse stock was from Copperbottom, Steeldust, Kentucky Whip and Morgan lines with a heavy input of Spanish/ Mexican genetics and a large amount of TB. That registry formed in 1940.

So many wonderful breeds in the USA. It is a shame there is such a narrowed view of so many of these versatile horses bred for riding.

[D_BaldStockings]

Left out the Morgan registry was formed 1893, over 100 years after the foundation sire Figure was foaled.

[Guilherme]

Snipped for brevity:

@D_BaldStockings;9042930

TWH were developed out of ‘riding stock’ and breeders were determined to ‘set’ the running walk genetically - which they succeeded in doing. Though the TWH registry formed in 1935, the ‘riding horse’ predated that by many decades.

Sadly, they did not set the “running walk” genetically. Even to this day a true running walk is almost an anomaly in the TWH. The vast majority pace to some degree as a result of the dual tragedies of the original association failing to set the gait genetically and then undoing whatever progress they might have done in their quest for the Big Lick. A pacer builds up better than a true “walker.” To this day there is no breed standard published by the TWHBEA. They tout this as an opportunity for “diversity.” I say it’s a cover for sloppy breeding practices. Take you pick.

Not to mention that much of the very early pre-Quarter Horse stock was from Copperbottom, Steeldust, Kentucky Whip and Morgan lines with a heavy input of Spanish/ Mexican genetics and a large amount of TB. That registry formed in 1940.

Indeed. The QH also benefited greatly from the Remount stallions. A number of breeders in the early 20th Century stood remount stallions (what were 90% TB-type). The Iberian connection is almost unknown by the rank and file QH owners.

It’s a shame to see nice stock turned into carnival horses.

G.

[ASB_Stars]

If not for Grant allowing Lee’s officers to take their mounts home, at Appomattox, the American Saddlebred, then the “Kentucky Saddler” would probably not exist today. They were bred for comfort, durability and stamina, and beauty. They were bred to be what today would be considered a sport horse.

Breeding for type has caused the show ring paradigm to be a vertical neckset. However, since the breed strongly reverts to original type, about 10% of the horses foaled and registered each year- currently less than 1500- are that type. The rest are considered to be, at best “B” rated show horses. However, the road has been the destination for horses found wanting by the show horse trainers, for decades. An easy phone all to one of the usual suspects seals the horses fate. If their tail has been cut- which is far too often the case- there is no other avenue for them. The sport horse world doesn’t allow for an artificially altered tail.

The feet that people see only exacerbates the negative view of a beautiful breed of horse.

[D_BaldStockings]

The dressage world may not allow a surgically altered tail, but Show Jumping does, as does Endurance.

NOT in favor of tail surgery, just clarifying.

The horses sold ‘to the road’ seem to go for higher prices as 3-4-5 year olds than if they were individually marketed from a SS trainer barn for Sport.

Perhaps it isn’t ‘right’, but it is the current market for a quick sale.

Here on the ‘left coast’ the Amish market is nil.

Saddlebreds that go to auction generally lose their papers if they aren’t ‘show stock’ because they just look like WB or TB x to the non-aficionado. Throw a western saddle on and voila! penning prospect or playday horse.
Prices aren’t high for non-papered stock here, either.

Horses that are actually in work and proven successful in competition, whatever the breed, do well in the market. ‘Prospects’ and ‘Projects’ don’t find many buyers.