Totally untrue…amwrider I’m sorry but you need to look around you.
I am not against pads- as in ONE pad for therapeutic purposes. I am against multiple pads, and bands, along with weighted shoes and lead.
You need to bear in mind, when you look at the USDA stuff, that the Vets who were called in to testify were called in by the ASB, Morgan, Hackney people. If I am going to call in an expert witness, I sure as hell am going to call one in who is on my page.
What would be far more telling would be to ask Vets and Blacksmiths- who specialize in sports medicine- to explain their thoughts and opinions on this type of stuff. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=Amwrider;9037531]
ASB Stars is showing the most extreme cases and trying to pass them of as “the norm” but it is not the case. Shoeing is getting lighter and hooves are getting shorter. Horses that labor at their trot or labor at their rack do not look good and do not place well so they are now going by the wayside. You still have a few “old timers” that think bigger and heavier is better…you still have some people that will put a longer hoof or heavier package on their horse if their horse doesn’t have to trot quickly, but it is getting better.[/QUOTE]
No, what I posted was a link to pictures at last year’s World Championships- so that people could see recent shoeing on horses at the top of the industry. NOT the backwoods, old timers that you seem to want to believe are the only ones perpetuating this.
Take a look at the photos. They clearly show the horses feet. Then tell me that this doesn’t happen anymore.
Snipped for brevity.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;9037531]
And again, I say that when the horse industry turns on itself, not because of CRUELTY … but because of DISLIKE … then we are making it easier for the Animal Rights people to get rid of us industry by industry.
IMO you have to be like the umpire and call 'em like you see 'em. Worrying about making PETA’s job easier ought to be a minor concern, at best.
Putting a heavier shoe on a horse or putting a 1 inch stack of pads on a horse does not equate to cruelty. It does no harm unless someone does something stupid.
I disagree. Neither of us can cite a university level studies one way or the other. Therefore both of us are reduced to anecdote, which I presume we agree does not equal “data.” IMO anything that significantly alters equine conformation and way of going (and a one inch pad will do that with or without a heavy shoe and/or chains) will put additional stress on the front legs (ground up), shoulder, back, stiffles, hips, and rear legs (all the way to the ground). I’ve certainly seen it in Walking and Racking horses. I’m not familiar enough with SBs to say. I’ve gotten a lot of experience with a more diagonal horse with my current Marchador gelding who is strongly batida, the Marchador’s more diagonal gait. Devices are not used either in this country or Brazil. That being the case I oppose 1" pads and chains (independently or combined) as I see the risk and real and substantial. You may have a different view.
FACE IT You are against it because YOU DON"T LIKE IT. Period.
That is not a valid reason to try to legislate it away.
Again, I say it…it is a slippery slope when we start banning and legislating things because we don’t like it.[/QUOTE]
I agree that banning things because we find them distasteful, as opposed to a real and substantial threat to public health, safety, and welfare, is an unwise practice. Defense of a practice because we like the way it looks and continuing it in spite of evidence that it causes a substantial threat to public health, safety, or welfare is an equally unwise practice. Upon which side do we err in the case of pads and action devices on horses’ feet?
G.
In case you didn’t read, Dr. Bennett is a sports medicine guy who is well known across multiple disciplines for his knowledge of sports medicine in equines.
Just saying…
and yes LadyLexie. I take a look around, thank you very much. I have been in the industry in both the ASB and Morgan industries since 1993.
[QUOTE=Amwrider;9038048]
In case you didn’t read, Dr. Bennett is a sports medicine guy who is well known across multiple disciplines for his knowledge of sports medicine in equines.
Just saying…
and yes LadyLexie. I take a look around, thank you very much. I have been in the industry in both the ASB and Morgan industries since 1993.[/QUOTE]
I’ve met Scott Bennett. He owns Alliance Stables- an American Saddlebred breeding and training facility. The vast majority of his practice is in American Saddlebreds. Scott may know better, but he is also a part of the ASB show world. Enough said.
Would anyone care to comment on the following horseshoes?
http://www.cattafesta-c.it/_public/gianmaria/img-prod/400418_303-b1.jpg
therapeutic
therapeutic
therapeutic
What is the difference between ‘therapeutic’ and ‘performance enhancing, but not therapeutic’ ?
Would sliding shoes on a reiner be considered therapeutic since they protect the horse from jamming up its’ stifles and hocks in a figure 11 slide? Even at a risk to overstressing tendons or ligaments or increasing front concussion?
Remember we are talking about a somewhat exaggerated movement that horses do not do in nature unless they are on slick ground accidentally?
weight.
What about studs?
Borium?
Clips?
rimmed St. Croix eventers?
is that the slippery slope?
There’s a shoe that provides safety and stability (studs, borium, rims) or just safety (sliding plates, as the horse needs to slip to be safe, plain bells), there are shoes that support the hoof (the crazy stuff above), and there are performance enhancing devices (weighted bells, chains, heavy shoes, crazy long feet) designed with neither safety nor support in mind, just man-made desires for more.
If you want to have an art vs porn conversation, then that’s where you’re headed, I guess.
So because we are worried about therapeutic shoes and studs and borium do we sit on our hands and say nothing to the insane shoeing practices and soring?
At what point do we step in and say enough is enough?
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;9038327]
So because we are worried about therapeutic shoes and studs and borium do we sit on our hands and say nothing to the insane shoeing practices and soring?
At what point do we step in and say enough is enough?[/QUOTE]
Now’s a good time! :yes:
[QUOTE=jdobbs64;9038308]
What about studs?
Borium?
Clips?
rimmed St. Croix eventers?
is that the slippery slope?
There’s a shoe that provides safety and stability (studs, borium, rims) or just safety (sliding plates, as the horse needs to slip to be safe, plain bells), there are shoes that support the hoof (the crazy stuff above), and there are performance enhancing devices (weighted bells, chains, heavy shoes, crazy long feet) designed with neither safety nor support in mind, just man-made desires for more.
If you want to have an art vs porn conversation, then that’s where you’re headed, I guess.[/QUOTE]
Hey! I know it’s porn when I see it! :winkgrin:
However, the shoes/enhancements you are listing actually help protect a horse and rider, doing what they do.
Long toes, stacks of pads, weight and bands don’t. While a single pad may serve a therapeutic use, multiple pads are a different story.
Now, I know that there will be someone who will talk about adding a wedge, etc. However, if the horse actually has issues which require their heels to be raised, there are degree pads that handle those things.
I think a couple of you may be reading too fast.
My point was those are all good things things that are good for horses, keeping them safer and sounder.
But the crazy weighted pads and shoes, the long toes, the chains aren’t good for anything but people and ribbons …those are totally different.
Go back and read what I wrote again I was responding to the person before me who was offering the same tired 'but what about (insert false argument). Point being I want all these ridiculous clown shoes gone.
PS this is all speech to text sorry
I fear that the Dressage specific shoes pics examples I posted are in fact ‘good for people and ribbons’, and that the horses DO NOT wear them when their performance careers are over.
The shoes are designed to give the horses ‘an edge’ performing large lateral movements in arena footing and enhancing ‘rollover’ possibly enhancing suspension vs. ground time; yet it is difficult to describe a shoe as therapeutic when it reduces the support surface to an elevated and far smaller section of the ground surface.
If ‘pads’ are to be illegal, who determines ‘therapeutic’ vs. ‘performance but non-therapeutic’, when any pad/sole cover can be abused to pressure sore by the unscrupulous?
I am all in favor of physical measurements limiting toe/total hoof length, limiting total shoe weight…
I am probably in favor of eliminating bands, as they require adjustment and in many cases do appear to cause bruising.
On the other hand, there are many ‘shoeing’ innovations that are not really acceptable in breed specific show rings: casts, various over-the-hoof boots, plastic shoes, most glue ons, the above small surface contact shoes, etc.
There is no usefulness for bad farrier work in any breed or discipline.
On the other hand, even though my non-competition horses are comfortably barefoot in pasture and with light riding, I would like to be able to give them any advantage/security/protection that the farriers’ art offers should I decide to jump or ride distances or train for maximum extension or collection, spins, etc.
Who decides how much is too much?
And is the decision based off of actual science or studies of negative/positive changes over time to the horse; or 'I’ve seen a bad apple, that sours the whole barrel for me: ban all apples, and ban all barrels while you are at it?
Perhaps it is a matter of perspective.
This is a great article on how to handle mismatched angles on feet. Steve O’Grady was my blacksmith long before he was a Vet- many years ago. He is brilliant.
Yes, he is using A pad here- for therapeutic purposes…
So will a vet be needed to sign off on ‘therapeutic’ shoeing?
Or would a farrier be sufficient?
-And if you do not approve of the vet…?
here is no usefulness for bad farrier work in any breed or discipline.
in the land of sored horses, define bad.
Look, it’s apparent on it’s face that the HPA is about TWH and soring. Its all over it like a cheap suit. I think Fuego and his fancy feets are fine. Show me any effort anywhere to apply the HPA anywhere BUT a TWH show. Go ahead.
Who decides how much is too much?
The USDA’s professionals that swoop in and shut down whatever **** show they elect to visit. And they are going to get rid of action devices and pads, and horses that were already penny cheap ( I have a colt out of/by two padded WGC padded TWHs and I got him at 3… for all of $1200 bucks. And middle TN will overcome this and the economy will shift or wither and die.
Look, the padded horse folks can become flat shod folks. The horses are good. Teach them different skills and move forward, the game is over.
