Enlighten me: what does the AKC do for dogs?

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5860898]
I have never heard any controversy about rough or smooth collies.
Our small animal vet used to breed and show both and other dog club members have also, one just now has smooths.
No one has talked about this.

I know about the bc controversy, because at that time I knew the bc representative that went to NY to meetings with the AKC executives.[/QUOTE]

Bluey, you must be joking, the collie nose? The eye diseases, the tiny little head cases? All of varying genetic diseases which comes from breeding for that fancy coat and little else. In neither of those two collie lines do the dogs even herd anymore and could not hold up to a rough day in the Scottish Highland type climate if it was rolled around in a car from one field to another. It is real easy, take a look at the old rough collie, even the original Lassie from the early 20th Century film. Try to match that with today’s dogs. The coat was even different, nevermind the head, the tulip ears and the broader head with a stop and not the pig eyed things that typify so many collies in the US today.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Calamber;5861439]
Bluey, you must be joking, the collie nose? The eye diseases, the tiny little head cases? All of varying genetic diseases which comes from breeding for that fancy coat and little else. In neither of those two collie lines do the dogs even herd anymore and could not hold up to a rough day in the Scottish Highland type climate if it was rolled around in a car from one field to another. It is real easy, take a look at the old rough collie, even the original Lassie from the early 20th Century film. Try to match that with today’s dogs. The coat was even different, nevermind the head, the tulip ears and the broader head with a stop and not the pig eyed things that typify so many collies in the US today.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for explaining your comment.
I understood you meant that those breeds had a problem with the AKC similar to the ones the border collie and JRT breed clubs did.

Sure, there are problems as you mention with any breed, but those are not because they are registered with any one registry.

Any time you breed, you will have to be aware of what you are doing and work to eliminate what you can you don’t want in your lines.
Much easier today, as there is some genetic testing and more coming down the pipeline to help breeders with those decisions.

Those problems in collies are what their breed club addresses, not the AKC itself.
Each breed club determines what is best for their breed and why, although they have to follow the AKC legal department advice on what they can demand to register or not, as already explained.

We need to look at the big picture here.
Any time we develop a breed, we are reducing the gene pool to those individuals that fit our criteria for that breed.
That tends to bring any problems to the surface.
The less individuals in a breed, the harder it is to avoid genetic problems, unless outcrossing is permitted, as it has been in some exceptions in some breeds, as with the Basenjis.

No matter what breed, good breeders need to educate themselves and do the best they can to produce the best, healthiest and of that breed’s type and characteristics individuals they can.
Every breed has problems.
In a way, to be part of a registry like the AKC has permitted some breeds to determine what problems they have and work on solutions.
The AKC, as already mentioned by another poster, has helped fund several studies to address those.

Without a registry to keep track of what is out there, we would not know as well what the problems are and what lines to avoid to eliminate them.

By the way, collie nose and those other characteristics you mention are prevalent in other breeds also, not just collies.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kryswyn;5861217]
An AKC dog must win 15 points to become a Championship, and at least 9 points must be ‘majors’ where a dog beats a required number of dogs to earn points. Majors are often ‘staged’ by competitors who bring extra dogs who are clearly 2d rate, or not groomed properly or handled by novices; anything to pump up the number of dogs showing so that the desired 3 pt. major can be awarded.[/QUOTE]

Only 6 points need to be from majors (2 majors are required), but I can tell you that you’d need a lot of help to stage a major. Staging for a single point…yeah, I know that happens…but getting enough “dummies” in the ring or convincing enough other exhibitors not to groom their dogs for 3+ points? I’m sure it can happen…but I certainly have never seen it. I’m currently shopping for shows for my dog’s last major and I’m hoping to be able to even find a major in the next 3 months…let alone win it. Maybe in rarer breeds where the numbers for a major are particularly low? I suppose it would be possible for a single exhibitor to own enough to pull a major by themselves.

I hear what people are saying about the AKC, and I do think there are probably a number of breed fanciers and breed clubs who have come to odds over whether to join the AKC or not…or whether it will weaken the breed in some way. I’m not personally familiar with these particular arguments, however.

[Barnfairy]

But why NOT have some restrictions on health-related issues?
By the same token, why don’t more prospective dog owners do their homework, research what breed is appropriate for them, learn about that breed’s potential health risks, and buy from reputable breeders with champion or otherwise appropriately titled sires and dams?

The point of having a purebred dog is having some predictability in temperament, size and appearance. “AKC registered” isn’t meant to be a guarantee of health any more than “AQHA registered” is.

If you are concerned about performance, buy a dog from stock titled in the field, obedience, or whatever it is you want to do…in other words, from proven bloodlines.

Spend some time on the AKC website. Learn. They have programs and awards which encourage responsible ownership and breeding. You can even participate in CGC with shelter dogs and mixed breeds.

[wendy]

They have programs and awards which encourage responsible ownership and breeding.

you mean like when the AKC tried to form a partnership with one of the big puppy mills (Hunte) to promote the breeding and purchase of AKC-registered puppies through Hunte’s main outlet, Petland?

The AKC has repeatedly demonstrated that their cash flow is of far greater importance to them than the welfare of dogs.

Being accepted into AKC has been the kiss of death for so many working breeds that one can only conclude that there is something seriously wrong with AKC’s policies.

You can go around saying “well, they are just a registry”, but consider that other registries of animals, such as for warmblood horses, insist upon strict quality control measures for registration.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=wendy;5862222]
You can go around saying “well, they are just a registry”, but consider that other registries of animals, such as for warmblood horses, insist upon strict quality control measures for registration.[/QUOTE]

And other registries don’t – the Jockey Club, APHA, for example.

Not to mention the sheer numbers of registered dogs in comparison to warmblood horses…even if they wanted to do it, it might not be possible.

I’m not arguing that it would be nice to have some minimal requirements…but that is where the AKC titles come into play. I agree that the prospective buyer has to do some of the work too! (Not that I think it would make much difference for many people. If they couldn’t get a registered dog, they would just buy an unregistered one…)

[Equibrit]

They run canine beauty pageants. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4myiayLunDEWdkc3cYzIhOYeln72yBzYNFTNejEOIE0G1M6MwpQ
To the detriment of any other qualities a dog may have.

[Kryswyn]

I have seen majors staged by 3 owner handlers and a breeder who between them brought 10 dogs to a show, including a bitch who’d just weaned her pups. They’ve done it whenever one of their group needs to finish a less than outstanding dog they want to breed and needs to have the CH. before they breed. They’ll go to a cluster of shows and each participant generally gets the points from one show and serves as the filler the other days. You should’ve heard the (pardon the pun) bitching when a professional handler showed up at one of the shows with a new top quality dog and stole the points.

This is not a breed where you have to have 20 dogs entered to make one point. Having 6 on site would be a lot.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;5862420]
They run caine beauty pageants. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4myiayLunDEWdkc3cYzIhOYeln72yBzYNFTNejEOIE0G1M6MwpQ
To the detriment of any other qualities a dog may have.[/QUOTE]

That is by far not all they do, would be like saying all AQHA horses do is halter classes.

Our dog club was accredited by the AKC as a performance club, not conformation and we don’t give conformation classes.
There is another local AKC conformation dog club and they rent space in our building for their classes and some of the members belong to both clubs, but by far most are in the performance club.

Our club puts on agility and obedience/rally shows, several a year and gives classes to the general public, in household manners, clicker, tricks, basic obedience, basic agility, “happy feet”, canine good citizen/therapy dog, goes to help with dog adoptions from shelters, gives demonstrations at area schools, whatever all else anyone wants to do with dogs.

Conformation is what started the AKC and still drives it as far as registtrations, but I would say most of the dogs registered are not participating in any way in any kind of dog “beauty pageant”.

Conformation participants are generally breeders and, like with anything else, most are very conscientious and want to do what is best by their dogs and breed.
Now, what is best, that is up for discussion, but that there is discussion doesn’t make the breed, breeders or AKC the devil.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Kryswyn;5862522]
I have seen majors staged by 3 owner handlers and a breeder who between them brought 10 dogs to a show, including a bitch who’d just weaned her pups. They’ve done it whenever one of their group needs to finish a less than outstanding dog they want to breed and needs to have the CH. before they breed. They’ll go to a cluster of shows and each participant generally gets the points from one show and serves as the filler the other days. You should’ve heard the (pardon the pun) bitching when a professional handler showed up at one of the shows with a new top quality dog and stole the points.

This is not a breed where you have to have 20 dogs entered to make one point. Having 6 on site would be a lot.[/QUOTE]

I understand how it could be done, but what happens when (as you say) another exhibitor shows up with a decent dog? It might work, but I can just imagine that it could bite you in the a$$ if you are wrong about who is coming. Haha. That would be fun to watch; even MORE fun to be the ones that bust that plan. :lol: Love to know what breed you’re talking about.

My breed only needs 8 for a major (3 points)…but that can sometimes be hard to get…and you really never know how many will enter. I’m hoping the show I enter in October will pull a major but think it’s not likely. :no:

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;5862420]
They run caine beauty pageants. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4myiayLunDEWdkc3cYzIhOYeln72yBzYNFTNejEOIE0G1M6MwpQ
To the detriment of any other qualities a dog may have.[/QUOTE]

That’s just a naive view of the world. It’s not about beauty anyway, it’s about conformation – just like in horses. The breed club writes the standard and applies to the AKC for admittance.

I understand when breed clubs feel that conformation (via the AKC) becomes a “more important” standard than performance titles and that leads to the detriment of the breed. Usually, though, when you hear of people calling dog shows “beauty pageants”, they have a mutt with a great temperment, and for some reason begrudge purebred dogs for being purebred (great temperment or not).

[Barnfairy]

@wendy

You can go around saying “well, they are just a registry”, but consider that other registries of animals, such as for warmblood horses, insist upon strict quality control measures for registration.

Have you ever wondered what becomes of the Friesian foal which, heaven forbid, is born chestnut? It sure as heck isn’t registered as a Friesian, thanks to “quality control”.

[quote=Kryswyn;5862522]You should’ve heard the (pardon the pun) bitching when a professional handler showed up at one of the shows with a new top quality dog and stole the points.

[/quote]
If the quality dog won, it doesn’t sound like the judging was corrupt, so I’m not sure I see your point.

@Equibrit

They run caine beauty pageants. To the detriment of any other qualities a dog may have.

Just curious: have you ever participated in a conformation class? Or are you just passing judgement from afar?

Are there politics in conformation shows? Of course there are. As there are in any competition --canine, equine, or otherwise-- which relies on subjective judgement. That doesn’t mean that everyone who participates is superficial and greedy.

[vacation1]

[QUOTE=S1969;5863166]
Usually, though, when you hear of people calling dog shows “beauty pageants”, they have a mutt with a great temperment, and for some reason begrudge purebred dogs for being purebred (great temperment or not).[/QUOTE]

I disagree there. When I hear the ‘canine beauty pageant’ complaint, it is usually coming from the pure-bred people, the ones who specialize in “working” strains of various breeds (for my money, a dog who can be a good pet is doing a job, and one that’s much harder being a good police or sheep dog)

@Barnfairy;5862068

Spend some time on the AKC website. Learn. They have programs and awards which encourage responsible ownership and breeding. You can even participate in CGC with shelter dogs and mixed breeds.

Oh, come on. Don’t try to shine people on about the AKC based on their grudging, money-grubbing fart of a ridiculously protracted program to let the mongrels on board. Yippeee, mutt owners are now able to pay the AKC a registration fee so they can compete in AKC-run performance events, in a separate ring from the registered purebreds. The whole thing is completely nonsensical, particularly considering the ILP dogs running in the same ring as the purebreds, and clearly is a sop to those breeders who screeched down the roof when the idea was broached. I agree that the AKC promotes good ownership, but it’s in a very, very limited way - ie, if you’re a member of this tiny commmunity that actively shows dogs in some event in the AKC world, you’re probably feeding, exercising and training your dogs so they behave nicely. AKC shows are interesting because unlike most places with large numbers of dogs, insanely ill-handled dogs are the exception rather than the rule. But their collective recoil from the mutts and the mixes who can’t be winked into ILP was telling; this is a closed club to the larger dog-owning public.

[Barnfairy]

There is no AKC registration fee required to participate in CGC. Which you would know if you spent some time on the AKC website, reading, to learn.

[Nezzy]

I raised and bred JRTCA dogs and i was so proud to be in a registry that actually required a little work and a little waiting. If all registries did the same’ the health of the dogs would be improved upon. I know the AKC is a profit making organization. Since puppies are registered sight unseen, the AKC registry is worth nothing. You need to do the homewrok if you want a quality pup.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=vacation1;5863293]
I disagree there. When I hear the ‘canine beauty pageant’ complaint, it is usually coming from the pure-bred people, the ones who specialize in “working” strains of various breeds (for my money, a dog who can be a good pet is doing a job, and one that’s much harder being a good police or sheep dog).[/QUOTE]

Maybe…but I think it also smacks of sour grapes. The breed clubs write the conformation standards. That doesn’t mean that the performance standards mean nothing. In my breed, dual champions (field & conformation) are the true pinnacle of the breed. Doesn’t mean one OR the other is worthless, though.

What YOU think is a worthwhile “pet”, however, is really irrelevant. I think a worthwhile pet is a dog who snuggles in my bed. But my breed club has defined the standard for the breed, not me.

[Hannahsmom]

@S1969;5863166

That’s just a naive view of the world. It’s not about beauty anyway, it’s about conformation – just like in horses. The breed club writes the standard and applies to the AKC for admittance.

I understand when breed clubs feel that conformation (via the AKC) becomes a “more important” standard than performance titles and that leads to the detriment of the breed. Usually, though, when you hear of people calling dog shows “beauty pageants”, they have a mutt with a great temperment, and for some reason begrudge purebred dogs for being purebred (great temperment or not).

Great post

[Hannahsmom]

@Nezzy;5863320

I raised and bred JRTCA dogs and i was so proud to be in a registry that actually required a little work and a little waiting. If all registries did the same’ the health of the dogs would be improved upon. I know the AKC is a profit making organization. Since puppies are registered sight unseen, the AKC registry is worth nothing. You need to do the homewrok if you want a quality pup.

I had one of those JRTCA dogs. Loved her, she was great…not really different than my new AKC registered terrier breed. Yes, conformation is a beauty pagaent, but a lot of the ‘working breed dogs’ have terrible conformation. Neither is the dog’s best friends. AKC is about registrations and rules for events. It’s the breeders that ruin the breeds in my book.

[sketcher]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5862551]

Conformation participants are generally breeders and, like with anything else, most are very conscientious and want to do what is best by their dogs and breed.
Now, what is best, that is up for discussion, but that there is discussion doesn’t make the breed, breeders or AKC the devil.;)[/QUOTE]

The breeders breed as close to the standard as possible but towards the conformation standard and not the rest of the standard in terms of desired behavior. So they will breed for coat or body shape or whatever fad is in a the moment - whether it be giraffe long necks on a doberman or a beautiful coat on a BC - regardless of how the breed would actually perform to the standard.

This really hurts working breeds because the standard for many of them is very variable. Look at the differences in “real” BC’s and then go look in a show ring and see how they all start to look the same - same conformation, same coat, same pretty faces, same height - but many not quite so sharp as working dogs because they have been bred to look nice, not perform. They might still do ok in an Agility ring but if you have ever watched a true BC in an Agility ring the difference becomes quickly apparent. I would hazard a guess it is the same for herding.

AKC is all about the money. Nothing more. Sorry. It is political and often detrimental to the individual breeds. Sure, dog shows are fun. I have a very nice bitch that I intended to show and spent a lot of money to buy her as a puppy. I would have loved doing it despite the politics and nastiness that goes on. But I still am not a fan of AKC. And I have to say, the show prospect that I purchased is a great dog but she is nothing like the male I have of the same breed who was bred to work.

[Hannahsmom]

The AKC does not choose the sire or the dam. The breeders do. The judges can only judge what comes in front of them. Conformation shows are like halter classes. They attract a different sort of person that wants to compete than those who want to do herding trials or working terrier trials, etc. This has nothing to do with the AKC. It is the exhibitors and the breeders that enter dogs. And although I agree that I would never own a conformation Border Collier vs. a working Border Collie, that’s because I find conformation shows boring and political. I felt the exact same way about halter classes which is why I evented. With my dogs I finished their conformation championships because I could. Then I moved my young dogs on into obedience, rally, agility, and working terrier trials. When I see dogs of my breed that I don’t care for because I think they are going the wrong way health-wise or temperament-wise, it is because the BREEDERS are choosing and breeding to dogs that won last week. But I don’t blame the AKC for that, it is the point chasers I put to blame that they are unable to stay true to their chosen breed and its’ standard. Personally I believe no dog should be bred unless it has true working and conformation wins, but I don’t want the AKC telling me which dogs to breed.

I will agree that what has happened to some breeds over time really makes me sad. I really feel sad everytime I see GSD’s, I hate the conformation BC’s, I would never buy a “Parson Russell” vs my good old JRT, etc. I blame breeders who breed before doing health clearances, and who don’t care about the breed’s original working ability. I bought my puppies from lines that emphasized both qualities.