Make sure after it is filed with the court to email a copy of the initial filing to Rate My Horse Pro so they can add this sleazy seller to their court news database, where it will live forever in a google search if anyone buys from this seller again.
[QUOTE=Altered39;8537675]
Well folks, stay tuned for the details.
We offered to pay her ransom, and it was refused. We will be filing suit.
I realize to some it may be a waste of money, and some feel it would be a good life lesson for the kid to see that not everything goes according to plan⊠I however have been the kid who has been wronged in the past time and time again, and not had anyone step in to help, even when they could. I lost a lot of faith in the world and people from those who would just stand by watching. I would much prefer to teach the lesson that while yes, people do some terrible things, there is someone who will stand up. Even if it means stepping up as the trainer. It isnât going to be easy, financially or logistically, as far as attending the hearing. But finding a comparable pony for the price will be just as difficult.
Pony was not overly expensive, though for the quality, it should have been, and I highly suspect that is the root of this whole situation. Realizing what she had after the deal was done.[/QUOTE]
Well that sucks. But not surprising from the sound of the way things have gone so far. Good on you and your client for sticking to your guns.
As I was told by counsel years ago, never go to court over just âprincipalâ. Courts the legal system doesnât really recognize âprincipalâ as the sole reason for legal recourse. You have far more going for you than just principal.
Sometimes winning the battle but losing the war is worth the money spent. Hopefully you or the court will also âspankâ them with additional fines and or criminal record. Bring on Judge Judy. Make sure the kid is in the court room sitting in front of the jury.
This would be a âGo-Fund-meâ I would contribute to help with legal expenses. Assuming your client isnât driving a $60,000 truck and trailer and the kid isnât sitting in a $2,000 saddle.
The more jerks like these that are taken to task the better. I would like to see someone set up a website that lists all of the case law and out come of this sort of BS. People that get caught up in this nonsense could send them the link with the question; âdo you feel lucky?â
[QUOTE=NJRider;8538077]
Make sure after it is filed with the court to email a copy of the initial filing to Rate My Horse Pro so they can add this sleazy seller to their court news database, where it will live forever in a google search if anyone buys from this seller again.[/QUOTE]
And then tell us who it is!
[QUOTE=bambam;8537709]
Not true. In general, a bill of sale usually contains enough information to be an enforceable contract (and the OPâs certainly appears to do so). As always with contracts, the specifics of whether and what you can enforce are determined by the exact language in the contract so you cannot say all bills of sale are valid contracts (just like you cannot say that none are), but it would have to be a really unusual one to not contain the bare bones that establish a contract. So what specifics you can enforce depends on what is covered in the document, but a signed bill of sale (unless it is really unusual in terms of what is in it) is a contract for goods.
Good luck OP- I hate when people get away with being s&^%y people just because it is usually not worth the effort/money just to make them do the right thing. So good on you for fighting them on it. I hope it works out- please keep us posted. I suspect they will roll over for some board money when they get served with something in writing from an attorney (you may only need a demand letter on a lawyerâs letterhead- works that way really often).[/QUOTE]
I did qualify my statement with the word âper-seâ. And provided a link that goes into details explaining the nuances (a subtle difference or distinction in expression, meaning, response, etc.). There are plenty of legal references that go into much more detail and explanations.
I have repeatedly advised, explained in other threads of like the importance of having both a Purchase and Sale agreement and a Bill of Sale. I have also hammered on the importance of the "languageââ used in both.
The more detailed the âpaper trailâ is makes legal recourse easier and less expensive. I know this as fact because I paid a lot of money to find out the hard way years ago.
Edited to satisfy the spelling police. Iâll try and not be a repeat offender in the future. Sometimes spell check is your friend, sometimes your nemesis
Your qualification is wrong- it is per se a contract. It would be extremely unusual for a bill of sale to be so deficient that it is not a contract and in this case, it is not legally deficient, and it is per se a contract. Putting that phrase in front of it does not make your statement correct :). And while there may be legitimate reasons to have both a bill of sale and purchase contract, it is not necessary for there to be an enforceable contract- it would simply affect what contractual rights you have to enforce. A contract may not end up giving you all the enforceable rights you want, but that does not mean it is not a contract.
It is not uncommon for people to extrapolate from a personal legal situation to a legal absolute, i.e. my bill of sale was not sufficient so no bills of sale are contracts. Usually that kind of extrapolation is inaccurate. The law is annoyingly fact specific and much of it varies by state (although the basic requirements for a contract- offer, acceptance, consideration do not really vary by state).
It would be awesome if you could have the pony declared stolen.
Since the pony is legally the property of your clients and you feel the pony is worth more, can you sue for his actual value plus the cost of the shipper they would not allow to pick up the pony?
Maybe a letter from a lawyer will be all thatâs needed.
Keep us updated. Go get 'em!!
Has the purchase money reappeared in the account? Just curious.
Though it is not the path I would have taken, I commend you for taking them to court. Remember if it gets that far, take emotion out of it. Just the facts, maâam ( or sir). âthis kid has been wronged by so many peopleâ doesnât matter. âThisâ seller and âthisâ pony and âthisâ buyer is what it is about.
I hope for it to come out in your favor, and I hope the shady trainer learns a lesson (and I really hope they get outted, as I admit I am curious).
Oh, you all can be sure I will blast this everywhere once filed. I will also then update from my regular username, and post to my FB page.
I did consider setting up a Gofundme, but I know many consider it in poor taste since some are of the opinion that every horse person is rolling in it. I will definitely reconsider though if enough of you feel this is a just enough cause, because it would make an IMMENSE difference to the ease with which we can pursue this.
Neither client or kid are well-off, which is what makes this so painful, as this pony was a goal being worked towards for quite some time. I am a young trainer, though I grew up on the circuit for 20+ years, I am out on my own now. What I do for this kid is my time and comes out of my pocket because she oozes talent, and just needs the opportunity.
We have been quoted about $1100 by an attorney to file the claim, and include breach of contract, as well as specific demand for the horse (not just a refund), plus assistance at the hearing, to which weâd have to travel from FL.
ETA: Given latest taunting messages, attorney is concerned for the ponyâs welfare (if not already sold and gone). He has suggested that if we can post a bond at double the value/purchase price of the pony ($4400 total), we can have it immediately seized where at least we will know for sure of its safety and whereabouts until the court can address the issue. If we file the basic claim not requiring a bond, the pony remains wherever it is until resolution of the matter. In light of that, I will come up with a GFM page asap and update with the link.
[QUOTE=Altered39;8538250]
Oh, you all can be sure I will blast this everywhere once filed. I will also then update from my regular username, and post to my FB page.
I did consider setting up a Gofundme, but I know many consider it in poor taste since some are of the opinion that every horse person is rolling in it. I will definitely reconsider though if enough of you feel this is a just enough cause, because it would make an IMMENSE difference to the ease with which we can pursue this.
Neither client or kid are well-off, which is what makes this so painful, as this pony was a goal being worked towards for quite some time. I am a young trainer, though I grew up on the circuit for 20+ years, I am out on my own now. What I do for this kid is my time and comes out of my pocket because she oozes talent, and just needs the opportunity.
We have been quoted about $1100 by an attorney to file the claim, and include breach of contract, as well as specific demand for the horse (not just a refund), plus assistance at the hearing.[/QUOTE]
Canât wait for an update 
(I hope I donât miss it) from the âreal youâ. Your client is lucky to have you as an advocate on her behalf. Go get 'em, tiger 
[QUOTE=gumtree;8538128]
I did qualify my statement with the word âper-sayâ. And provided a link that goes into details explaining the nuances (a subtle difference or distinction in expression, meaning, response, etc.). There are plenty of legal references that go into much more detail and explanations.
I have repeatedly advised, explained in other threads of like the importance of having both a Purchase and Sale agreement and a Bill of Sale. I have also hammered on the importance of the âlanguishâ used in both.
The more detailed the âpaper trialâ is makes legal recourse easier and less expensive. I know this as fact because I paid a lot of money to find out the hard way years ago.[/QUOTE]
The term is âper seâ, not âper sayâ
it is âlanguageâ, not " languish"
and it is " paper trail", not âpaper trialâ
So any legal advice from you should be taken with a very large chunk (not just a grain) of salt!
Just curious, what are you suing for? Punitive damages?
If they offered you the purchase price back, you are probably still out a small amount for the PPE, shipper. Presumably the horse is already sold elsewhere and by the time your hearing rolls around could be dead/unsound/sold on more times.
I totally understand the principle, but if your clients are strapped for cash and still need to find a pony I wonder if this will get them the resolution they seek.
Obviously the sellers are horrible people. And stupid, since they probably could have lied more strategically to void the sale without all this mess.
[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8538302]
Just curious, what are you suing for? Punitive damages?
[/QUOTE] Presumably she will ask for specific performance, which means requiring them to do what they agreed to do (turn over the pony), as well as costs. They may not be entitled to punitives- varies by jurisdiction and situation.
[QUOTE=yaya;8538281]
The term is âper seâ, not âper sayâ
it is âlanguageâ, not " languish"
and it is " paper trail", not âpaper trialâ
So any legal advice from you should be taken with a very large chunk (not just a grain) of salt![/QUOTE]
Gumtree may not be going to a spelling bee but heâs bought and sold more horses then most of us have seen in our lifetimes including dealing with sales gone bad and lawyers who often canât spell so good either.
OP has retained an attorney in this matter anyway.
[QUOTE=yaya;8538281]
The term is âper seâ, not âper sayâ
it is âlanguageâ, not " languish"
and it is " paper trail", not âpaper trialâ
So any legal advice from you should be taken with a very large chunk (not just a grain) of salt![/QUOTE]
Gumtree wrote:
I have repeatedly advised, explained in other threads of like the importance of having both a Purchase and Sale agreement and a Bill of Sale. I have also hammered on the importance of the âlanguishâ used in both.
Do you not know what it means when people put quotation marks (eg: âquotation marksâ) around things?
[QUOTE=bambam;8538331]
Presumably she will ask for specific performance, which means requiring them to do what they agreed to do (turn over the pony), as well as costs. They may not be entitled to punitives- varies by jurisdiction and situation.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification!
That still seems risky (presumably the pony is already sold, thus it would have to be tracked down and might not be in the same condition, in which case they are back to square one on the returned purchase price) but fingers crossed for a fast and positive resolution.
[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8538371]
Thanks for the clarification!
That still seems risky (presumably the pony is already sold, thus it would have to be tracked down and might not be in the same condition, in which case they are back to square one on the returned purchase price) but fingers crossed for a fast and positive resolution.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is why attorney suggested if there are people on board willing to assist, to see if we could come up with the bond to have the pony immediately seized, so it does not become lost/resold/âinjured/deadâ.
Well, I for one, am glad you decided to smack seller back. Deceptive practices have been going on since probably Xenophon, but we are in the here and now. The old âbuyer bewareâ isnât going to cut it anymore, I hope.
I betcha, once seller sees the letter with Attorney attached to it, they will suddenly be easy to work with.
What bothers me, you donât know where pony is and even if you cough up the $4400, how do you find it? PI?? What happens if pony is hell and gone or even dead? I can understand it may be lamed up, that can probably be fixed over time (not an ideal situation but you know where pony is and in what condition) but finding it in the first place then putting it somewhere it will still be fed and taken care of.
A bag of worms, for sure, but I am in your corner on this, as written. I want to know who the seller is, too.
Well, I for one, am glad you decided to smack seller back. Deceptive practices have been going on since probably Xenophon, but we are in the here and now. The old âbuyer bewareâ isnât going to cut it anymore, I hope.
I betcha, once seller sees the letter with Attorney attached to it, they will suddenly be easy to work with.
What bothers me, you donât know where pony is and even if you cough up the $4400, how do you find it? PI?? What happens if pony is hell and gone or even dead? I can understand it may be lamed up, that can probably be fixed over time (not an ideal situation but you know where pony is and in what condition) but finding it in the first place then putting it somewhere it will still be fed and taken care of.
A bag of worms, for sure, but I am in your corner on this, as written. I want to know who the seller is, too.
Sounds to me like posting the bond is a great idea, presuming you can go get the pony without delay or a third party like a shipper involved.
OP will sue for specific performance. So she can get the pony, since the seller apparently cashed the check or wire transfer. The contract/sale was complete when the seller accepted the money. And the OP can sue for any and all expenses, including the shipper being rejected, and for punitive damages as well as for intentional infliction of emotional distress. And for treble damages for the whole crooked mess of not producing the pony when the shipper arrived. So depending on the judge, the OP (or the buyer or both) can get the pony and enough money to punish the worthless seller. Thatâs a small town where the seller lives/works, so going to federal court is the best way to go.
So OP, start by asking for 100,000 or so, and the pony. Make sure you get a good lawyer who will actively go after the seller. What a worthless person he/she is.
