Equitation horses and drugs

[Mayaty02]

[QUOTE=541hunter;8648608]
I understand that sometimes people use it that way. But to assume that every time someone says “prep” they mean USEF-prohibited drugs is a false assumption.[/QUOTE]

ditto this. I have had the “no prep” horse and the “needs proper prep horse” and neither were ever given any drugs, nor lunged to death. No prep to me means right off the trailer and into the ring with maybe a quick warm up school. Been there done that several times. Those are great horses, this is true. Our “needs prep” horse doesn’t get any calming supplements and is only lunged long enough to get a buck out. Prep to us is a longer warm up period and maybe a ride by our trainer the morning of the show. For our naturally energetic though very lazy horse, that is the right amout of “prep” to ensure he is rideable by a 13 year old and in the right frame of mind, listening to all aids etc. He will still play sometimes the corner after the long approach oxer, but no attempt is ever made to make him completely flat and dead even though he is being ridden by a little kid and on a very competitive zone 3 A/AA children’s hunter circuit. We ride with a very well respected trainer in our area.

Completely different than say a horse who must have perfect prep, or some other substance, and an hour of lunging then another hour of riding and then back on the lunge. I still consider it “proper prep” however.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=541hunter;8648608]
I understand that sometimes people use it that way. But to assume that every time someone says “prep” they mean USEF-prohibited drugs is a false assumption.[/QUOTE]

Agreed – but assuming that “prep” does not mean drugs is just as much in error.

[vxf111]

I also think it’s ridiculous to assume that if Ace became legal, trainers would stop using other drugging cocktails/methods. People who are willing to give a horse a drug solely for purposes of competitiveness are willing to do all sorts of things, as the current state of the industry seems to show. I find it completely unrealistic to think other “methods” will vanish if a small level of Ace is legalized for showing. As it stands, a small amount of Dex is legal. Some people use that to calm. And yet cheating/drugging remains rampant.

[nekvt]

When is it all too much? Too many shows, too long a show year, too many ridiculous expectations for the horse - especially hunter and eq, too many trainers who can’t train their way out of a paper bag, too many riders who can’t ride and don’t know horsemanship basics, too much money tied to it all, too many judges who won’t get real and swim against the stream, too many different drugs for the horses and finally too many that turn their heads away and only talk behind their hands. It was all too much for me - I love the animals too much to put them through that whole scene.

[findeight]

Again, judges who swim against the stream don’t work much. Managers won’t hire them because certain very influential trainers will keep their 20-40 horse contingent away and will share their reasons. Judge selection is also all about money and fear of losing it.

BTW, the first time I heard the term “prep” in reference to getting a horse ready to go into the ring was circa 1970. No Sharps containers but you didn’t want to stick your hand in the trash cans. At least back then the show culture viewed it as wrong, however they were tying their heads up overnight pretty openly and then, as now, LTD was/still is on the tack room schedule board.

Puleeze don’t tell me Jumpers right up to the elite, sanctified International level are immune. I remember back in the mid-late 90s when quite a few of our very top names came up positive when tested at a big money GP. They claimed it was contamination or an unlisted ingredient in a supplement they had all fed, AHSA bought it and let them off with fines and censure.

Guess where they bought that supplement and why…Europe, because everybody was using it and it would not test.

I agree very much with Lucassb that unless you are there in a barn’s inner circle 24/7? You don’t know what goes on. And today’s pressure to produce extra zeros on the price tag and even to stay in business against those who cheat? Daunting.

All you can do is pay attention and stick to your guns as an owner about what you will allow and don’t face the trainer with meeting your possibly unrealistic expectations. Many owners don’t care as long as their expectations are met.

Multi layered problem here, no single solution.

[chicagojumper]

@juststartingout;8648326

A few thoughts

1. Unless one has actually worked in a particular barn in the innermost functions one won’t know for sure whether that barn drugs or LTD.
2. many BNT do talk openly about what “prep” a horse gets. standing listening at an ingate while working can be an eye opening experience (not announcing it but as part of their business conversation)

1. Maybe I’m an anomaly, but yes I do and I have worked behind the scenes in the innermost functions of my barns, so I can say with confident authority that we do not drug or LTD.

2. Discussing prep to get to a show ring with an interested buyer is vastly different from Manni, a stranger not interested in any particular horse, walking up to an unknown trainer and asking if all of the horses are drugged. And he replied authoritatively that, yes, all of the horses have been drugged and lunged to death, end of story. Not only is the information plain wrong, it’s just ludicrous that any trainer with any genuine knowledge on the subject would make such a weird blanket statement like that to a complete stranger.

I know that you were probably replying more in generalities, but I thought these might be a couple of points worth expanding on.

[Anne_FS]

Is every single horse competing drugged? No.

Is every big winner drugged? ummmmm, do you think the answer is “usually”? Or “the majority”?

As for no single solution, sure there is. Test every competitor at every show and inspect that no horse on the grounds behind the draperies is hanging from the top of the stall; invalidate wins & placings of every horse and their trainer and rider who tests positive. There is absolutely no reason this can’t be done. It is a complete and utter fake response to whine that it’s unfair that Poopsie’s Equitation win is negated because her horse is drugged to the gills. And it’s complete and utter bs that equestrian sport simply must allow drugging because people have to make a living.

Show some sincerity in actually caring about these animals.

If rules had teeth the problem would be solved. If every horse was tested with the guaranteed suspension of horse, rider, and trainer, you’d be amazed how many rich parents would be more careful about to whom they’re paying money. Half of them don’t know what goes on and frankly, the trainers who drug or hang or longe to exhaustion don’t care one tiddly-wink about true horse welfare. They’ve had decades to clean up their act and it’s obvious there is no interest in doing so. The truth is even the non-druggers now want in on the drugs, as shown by this article.

Certain dog breeds have size limits and often the big winners are oversize. Every now and then you get a judge who at the start of classes brings out the measuring wicket. Very funny to watch the entries just melt away and suddenly the classes are half the size - with entry fees already paid - because the show is going to check their honesty. Horse shows should do the same.

[MtnDrmz]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;8648948]

Certain dog breeds have size limits and often the big winners are oversize. Every now and then you get a judge who at the start of classes brings out the measuring wicket. Very funny to watch the entries just melt away and suddenly the classes are half the size - with entry fees already paid - because the show is going to check their honesty. Horse shows should do the same.[/QUOTE]

Can you imagine the scattering of ponies if they brought out a stick before they went in their entered division :eek:

[javacleo]

Amen Anne

"If rules had teeth the problem would be solved. " This x 10

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=chicagojumper;8648828]

1. Maybe I’m an anomaly, but yes I do and I have worked behind the scenes in the innermost functions of my barns, so I can say with confident authority that we do not drug or LTD.

2. Discussing prep to get to a show ring with an interested buyer is vastly different from Manni, a stranger not interested in any particular horse, walking up to an unknown trainer and asking if all of the horses are drugged. And he replied authoritatively that, yes, all of the horses have been drugged and lunged to death, end of story. Not only is the information plain wrong, it’s just ludicrous that any trainer with any genuine knowledge on the subject would make such a weird blanket statement like that to a complete stranger.

I know that you were probably replying more in generalities, but I thought these might be a couple of points worth expanding on.[/QUOTE]

I was replying in more general terms.

1. Frankly, I envy your experience. IME it is an anomaly.

2. I wasn’t referring to a discussion about a potential sale – which would be bad enough. Instead just listening to BNT talk about their prep methods, about competitors who hit the prep a little too hard, about what works best. And its not about riding or lunging… I think its going a bit far to think a trainer would volunteer the information to a stranger while watching classes. But if you sit and simply listen, you hear more than you want

[snowrider]

It’s an absolute joke that the riders haven’t been punished in the past. I think that has the biggest potential to change things. That and a lot more testing and a lot less leaking of the testers approach.

[BeeHoney]

[QUOTE=chicagojumper;8648109]

I ride at a non-drugging non-LTD’ing A circuit barn with h/j/big eq people. I know that we are not the only barn that stays honest on the A circuit. Plenty of other winning trainers and horses are not drugging; it’s not helpful to the discussion at hand to start claiming that EVERYBODY does it. Then you just isolate the honest people and they become unwilling to engage in these conversations because some others want to tar and feather every person that sits on a hunter on the A circuit (or an eq horse, in this particular thread).[/QUOTE]

Now, I can’t speak for you or your barn, but there are a LOT of owners and riders who are sure their horses are not being drugged or lunged to death but are not really aware of what is REALLY going on.

For example, trainer says, we are giving him some dex (which is quieting) for his “hives.” We are giving him some robaxin (also quieting) because his back is tight after trailering. We are giving him some banamine (also quieting) to make sure he’s not a little sore because the ground has been hard here. We are giving him some vitamin and mineral supplements (several tubes of perfect prep–doesn’t test). We are giving him an amino acid supplement (Carolina Gold). We are giving him some electrolytes (IV magnesium). We are giving him X other supplement that is supposed to help with the stress of traveling and showing (which could be just about any untestable/ experimental medication out there).

I’ve spent enough after hours time at shows (more than I wish) and I’ve seen more than one trainer with an extremely clean reputation (as in clients swear their trainer would never drug their horse) going down the row and injecting every horse with IV medications. IME this isn’t something that is done when anyone else is around (and it only takes ONE person to do an injection). Lastly, anyone with experience injecting horses could discreetly tuck a syringe in their sleeve and slip into a stall and do an injection without anyone noticing during daylight hours anyway.

Most horses DO benefit from a little longeing in the morning at a show to compensate from the lack of turnout. Nothing wrong with that. But how many clients are there at 5 or 6 am to overhear the trainer tell the hispanic groom to longe the horse until he’s exhausted or to longe the horse multiple times?

I’m just very skeptical when people swear their trainer doesn’t engage in any of these practices. By drugging, we aren’t talking about using testable illegal drugs like Ace. We are talking about using legal medications or supplements excessively and inappropriately and using untestable substances like injectable Magnesium or experimental drugs/substances that are not yet tested for–all to get the result of a quieter horse.

[findeight]

Wonder how many owners ask for a detailed description of the “Meds” item on their bill (if they get an itemized bill) or refuse to pay anybody but a vet who provides an individual itemized bill for “Meds”? How many challenge the math on bills or demand an explanation of what all items mean? Or do they fear being labeled as a troublemaker and just quietly write huge checks?

How many owners actually can name everything they are allowing into their horse? I say allow because trainers don’t get the stuff for free, it’s getting billed somewhere, usually as “Meds” or " Supps"?

I once had lunch at a rather wealthy friends house, maybe 10 years ago. Her kids showed the circuit. Watched her verbally thrash a contract landscaper for something trivial, she paid a few hundred a month for the service, called the landscapers office, demanded and got a reduction in that monthly service fee.

Then she wrote out a 6k check for one months trainer bill. I asked why was it was that high for a month where they only did one three day show with 2 horses. She said she never questioned it, long as they did well at the shows and the kids were happy, so was she. Not a bad person, just didn’t care about things she was not that interested in. Other then kids and/or ROI, I have a hunch many owners fall into that same category. They. Don’t. Care.

That attitude is a big problem. Have long advocated including the owners in penalties in a more meaningful way. But doubt it is ever going that way.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=MtnDrmz;8649013]
Can you imagine the scattering of ponies if they brought out a stick before they went in their entered division :eek:[/QUOTE]

Historically speaking, it has happened.

[findeight]

Yes, Indoors, late 90s or so. At least one reappeared a few states from its original barn under a new name in the new height division a couple of years later . As a GREEN. Everybody knew too, except the new owners

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=findeight;8649267]
Yes, Indoors, late 90s or so. At least one reappeared a few states from its original barn under a new name in the new height division a couple of years later . As a GREEN. Everybody knew too, except the new owners[/QUOTE]

If the pony measured taller than it had been showing, wouldn’t it have been eligible green in the new height division? For example, if the pony had been showing as a medium but measured as a large, it would be eligible as a large green since it would not have shown over 3’ at a rated show.

[findeight]

It was an oversized Small that was showing Medium Green in my area. I heard it was protested and AHSA, the Fed or whatever they were calling themselves that year ruled it ineligible Green. Didn’t get the details but suspect you only get one Green Pony Hunter year.

No doubt if it was not recognized as a successful Pony in both Green and Regular Smalls in its previous incarnation then won big as a Medium Green, nobody would have given a rats hind end, didn’t help the trainer was openly using its well known barn name instead if changing it as they had the show name. Pretty blatant, goes to show how arrogant some are when it comes to rules and assuming nobody will actually rat them out. Boy was he wrong about that in this case but more because it won, not because of trying to keep the sport clean.

[ynl063w]

If it had been showing as a small, then it hadn’t shown over 2’6" and should have been eligible to show medium green under the normal rules.

[Horse_Rider]

[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;8647159]
Actually, in doing the research for writing the COTH article “Why Not Just Allow 1/2 CC Of Ace,” I discovered that there is a distinction between sedatives and tranquilizers and the way they affect horses.

A tranquilizer, such as Ace, reduces anxiety without drowsiness or mechanical incoordination and has no analgesic (pain-reducing) effect. A sedative, such as Dormosedan, produces drowsiness, incoordination and has analgesic effects.

That difference is key in why specifically Ace is the drug being discussed for possible use in a competing horse.[/QUOTE]

Hi Molly,

I unfortunately don’t subscribe to COTH so I can’t read this article. (There is a 2’ tall pile of magazines still waiting to be read.) I will be looking into getting back issues because this problem intrigues me. My question: could you please name your sources and their credentials?

I ask because I have colleagues who, in addition to DVM or VMD behind their name, also include DCAVB. In the last 5 years they’ve started slapping us all on the wrist for using Ace for anxiety. The conclusion now is that it is not an anxiolytic, and instead is just essentially numbing them which is considered cruel in their minds. For thunder storm phobias, etc. they now recommend actual anxiolytics like alprazolam, or even trying trazadone. This is also why I don’t know any equine vets who use purely Ace for procedures unless the goal is to get in and done: sheaths, yes. Stitching them up, etc.? You need to actually take the edge off for more involved procedures because you are too mentally busy to watch when they start wobbling toward you (have watched 2 horses on minimal ace fall down - they were admittedly idiots, but you know).

So, I’m very confused about where your source got this info. I suspect it came from the wisdom of the past and not the more recent recommendations based on new behavior info. I will try to remember to ask some DACVB’s their opinion and if they are okay with it I will share what they say.

[x]

The real problem today is that riders don’t know how to ride–I was recently at a local barn show, and was amazed by the things the kids could not ride through–and these were kids that were jumping! The trainers pulled the kids off of horses that were doing minor misbehaviors (maybe a little to forward after that fence, or similar) and schooling them rather than having the rider ride through it. So, riders are not learning how to deal with a horse that is not going around like a robot. I know another trainer that will not let anyone ride their horse at a show until he himself has schooled it–and again, how are riders to learn how to deal with anything? As a seller of horses, I get alot of people from other barns coming to me to buy horses, and over the years it has drastically changed–people now cannot ride the average horse, but only a horse that is very push button. I will be told that a rider is a good rider, has ridden for x years, and is an intermediate. I will have a nice young horse, solid, no spook, no buck, no rear, but maybe has a trot that isn’t the dead slow metrinome of the old school horse, and these riders can’t ride the horse! Or they panic if they are on a horse that actually moves at a canter faster than a crawl. Or they don’t know how to maintain a steady trot. These riders are not intermediates, they are beginners, and in my opinion are not ready to be out showing. My own students can ride–I expect them to deal with any issues that come up. No matter their age. I had a five year old riding one of my ponies that decided to just be strong, and cut right into the middle of the ring. Can be very frustrating for a child. This was a small child, and just a beginner walk-trot child. I gave her a solution to do, and she did it–and was very proud that she was able to correct and control the pony. I put my students, once they are safe, on a horse that will give them a bit of a challenge in one way or another, and I do this from the beginning so they learn to ride–if they are a beginner, it may be something as simple as a horse with more suspension or a more forward horse. If they are more advanced, it may be a greener horse, or a horse with a bigger jump to it, or a horse that requires the rider to pay more attention to riding it. As a dealer, I have access to a large variety of horses, and can pick a horse to teach just about anything. The end result? My students can pretty much ride anything on four legs, and can make those horses look good. We’ve even had students who ride so accurately and well as to pin with an off breed in the hunter ring that really isn’t a hunter type–but they have learned to make that horse look the best that it can, and to ride the course very accurately. My favorite classes for my students to show in are the eq classes–because they can show a horse that isn’t a perfect hunter and still do well. But more and more today I am finding people don’t have that set of skills. And I think it is partially trainer produced–the trainers aren’t producing people that can do that because they are doing all the work, making sure the horse is very push button, and it starts from the beginning of teaching the riders to ride. It is a mindset that is out there. And because people can only ride those dead horses, and because they can’t train/manage anything else, they resort to drugging. In addition, since we have moved away from TBs, people don’t have the skill to ride that type of horse, and a WB that has more of the TB energy/behavior/type becomes difficult without that background. I purposely keep TBs in my lesson program just so people will learn to ride them.