I think what the trainers promoting the idea of giving show horses Ace are trying to say is that we are doing the horses more harm by banning more and more things. People are doing crazy things to these horses and/or lunging them into the ground. I think it’s like picking a president this year - the lesser of two evils. I don’t think it’s to alter the performance of a horse to go and win, if anything Ace makes them jump not as good. I think it would be to cut the wear and tear down. Ace isn’t going to make Susie ride any better than before, or make her the class winner.
well it is kind of sad, but I am still posting it… We had a friend who is doing the jumpers in Germany visiting this spring and of course we took him to Wellington. There are always a lot of hunters around and he was so impressed by the high quality of the horses and the riders. He had never seen hunters before. I am kind of mean and mentioned that he had to consider that all of these horses have fake tails and are drugged and it was interesting… He got mad at me!!
He assumed that I was just jealous because I could not ride as well as them… Well we kind of went different ways because we wanted to look at some things and I met him again after some time. He made friends with a trainer who was watching some riders… Now I saw my chance. I did ask the trainer whether he believed that the hunters were drugged and it was interesting. He said of course everyone of them was drugged and lunged in the morning. Now my friend was really shocked. I thought the whole thing was sad, because my friend was so impressed in the beginning, but I think if you admire something, you at least have to know what you admire… But for the hunter competitions its a really sad thing…
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647767]
I think what the trainers promoting the idea of giving show horses Ace are trying to say is that we are doing the horses more harm by banning more and more things. People are doing crazy things to these horses and/or lunging them into the ground. I think it’s like picking a president this year - the lesser of two evils. I don’t think it’s to alter the performance of a horse to go and win, if anything Ace makes them jump not as good. I think it would be to cut the wear and tear down. Ace isn’t going to make Susie ride any better than before, or make her the class winner.[/QUOTE]
Using/promoting the legalization of ACE to accomplish an end and justifying it by saying your are saving them from them from worse just doesn’t do it. The least bad option is not the only option. Instead there is always the option of doing what is best for the horse (even when it is not what is best for the owner/rider/trainer)
[QUOTE=Manni01;8647907]
He made friends with a trainer who was watching some riders… Now I saw my chance. I did ask the trainer whether he believed that the hunters were drugged and it was interesting. He said of course everyone of them was drugged and lunged in the morning. Now my friend was really shocked. [/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Oh for pete’s sake. Did you know who this “trainer” was and whether they had any sort of credibility before you decided to believe such a ridiculous statement? I’m skeptical whether this was even a trainer competing at WEF because:
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Not all hunters are drugged and lunged in the morning. That’s crazy talk and just blatantly incorrect information. Of course some are, but a lot of them aren’t. My barn does not and has not ever. I’ve ridden with other A circuit and big eq barns that also don’t drug or LTD. So this trainer is just pulling information out of his behind if he’s claiming that all of them do.
-
No legitimate trainer is going to casually answer these questions from a complete stranger by saying “Oh yeah, OF COURSE! We all drug all of our horses! La la la no big deal!!” :lol:
I ride at a non-drugging non-LTD’ing A circuit barn with h/j/big eq people. I know that we are not the only barn that stays honest on the A circuit. Plenty of other winning trainers and horses are not drugging; it’s not helpful to the discussion at hand to start claiming that EVERYBODY does it. Then you just isolate the honest people and they become unwilling to engage in these conversations because some others want to tar and feather every person that sits on a hunter on the A circuit (or an eq horse, in this particular thread).
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8647689]
I agree with DMK. The trainers that everyone is clutching their pearls over whether they’ll get the dose of Ace right, or if they’ll instead end up killing their clients out of ignorance, are dosing those same horses with plenty of other stuff already, and their clients not only survive weekend after weekend, but often win. This is a weak argument at best.[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t matter: if a non-vet drugs a horse and someone falls off that horse they are leaving themselves open to all kinds of liability. I don’t think regular equine liability laws are gonna cover that.
And I know 2 professionals who were badly hurt, one was paralyzed, riding horses they’d tranq’d up at home. Not to mention all the trailering mis-adventures I witnessed back in the day when everyone had Ace in their glovebox. Trainers demonstrably have not perfected the art of drugging.
[QUOTE=chicagojumper;8648109]
:rolleyes:
Oh for pete’s sake. Did you know who this “trainer” was and whether they had any sort of credibility before you decided to believe such a ridiculous statement? I’m skeptical whether this was even a trainer competing at WEF because:
-
Not all hunters are drugged and lunged in the morning. That’s crazy talk and just blatantly incorrect information. Of course some are, but a lot of them aren’t. My barn does not and has not ever. I’ve ridden with other A circuit and big eq barns that also don’t drug or LTD. So this trainer is just pulling information out of his behind if he’s claiming that all of them do.
-
No legitimate trainer is going to casually answer these questions from a complete stranger by saying “Oh yeah, OF COURSE! We all drug all of our horses! La la la no big deal!!” :lol:
I ride at a non-drugging non-LTD’ing A circuit barn with h/j/big eq people. I know that we are not the only barn that stays honest on the A circuit. Plenty of other winning trainers and horses are not drugging; it’s not helpful to the discussion at hand to start claiming that EVERYBODY does it. Then you just isolate the honest people and they become unwilling to engage in these conversations because some others want to tar and feather every person that sits on a hunter on the A circuit (or an eq horse, in this particular thread).[/)QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Maybe you are right. But by now more then one trainer told me that hunters in general are drugged and lunged down to the ground. So maybe I only know non legitimate trainers (because the legitimate trainers keep their mouth shut…). I dont know, its possible… so maybe all the hunters we saw in Wellington were clean and just beautifully relaxed and loose. And all of them were standing half asleep in the warm up ring and looked very happy and calm. It was a beautiful picture.
[QUOTE=jr;8643242]
I watched the whole Parker-Colvin debacle and just shook my head. …I wonder what they think of when they look at a trophy they know was won dishonestly and on endangering the health of their horse with a needless injection.[/QUOTE]
They think they’re really great. That’s what they think.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8647907]
w I did ask the trainer whether he believed that the hunters were drugged and it was interesting. He said of course everyone of them was drugged and lunged in the morning. [/QUOTE]
I had an interesting conversation at HITS. I was watching a horse in the warm up ring that I would have pulled m eye teeth to own. Ammy rider. Quiet. Incredible jump. I said to the woman’s trainer that I thought it was a spectacular horse. His reply, “and it doesn’t need any prep to be like that.”
The problem is that those horses are few and far between. I can’t imagine the price tag on the horse I was watching :eek:.
I also found it interesting that the trainer would even MENTION that it required no prep.
[QUOTE=Manni01;8648244]
Maybe you are right. But by now more then one trainer told me that hunters in general are drugged and lunged down to the ground. So maybe I only know non legitimate trainers (because the legitimate trainers keep their mouth shut…). I dont know, its possible… so maybe all the hunters we saw in Wellington were clean and just beautifully relaxed and loose. And all of them were standing half asleep in the warm up ring and looked very happy and calm. It was a beautiful picture.[/QUOTE]
Oh good grief that’s a little black and white isn’t it? Plenty of people don’t have their horses longed, plenty of people don’t drug their horses and some cheat. What percentage cheat? Well that would require somebody to do significantly more drug testing wouldn’t it?
Its funny how life works.
I read this on friday, before attending a clinic with a very good h/j clinician on Sat/Sun. Hacked over, since the location was a reasonable 5 mile distance and we ride a longer loop at least weekly. So, mostly at a walk with a few brief trotting spells but lots of hills and a VERY exciting bridge under which I presume there was a troll.
Gave her a 2 hour break before re-tacking for my session. While I was riding, she was unusually quiet even though this was our first off property jumping this year.
It felt like I was riding through molasses. Clinician LOVED her, I HATED the feeling. There was little opinion, little feedback. She just felt … dull, even ‘opinionless’, at least compared to what I’m used to. (evidently the mental fatigue significant) I vastly preferred her on day 2 after a good night’s sleep even though there was much more looking around.
It makes me so glad we’re focused on Eventing/Jumper. Give me a little spark, attitude and ‘pfft, I got this’ from my equine partner any day of the week. I keep returning to the article, the feeling under saddle and the question of what I want from a horse.
A few thoughts
- Unless one has actually worked in a particular barn in the innermost functions one won’t know for sure whether that barn drugs or LTD.
- many BNT do talk openly about what “prep” a horse gets. standing listening at an ingate while working can be an eye opening experience (not announcing it but as part of their business conversation)
- Not all hunter/eq horses are drugged - some are naturally quiet and suited to the hunter ring
- Bills to clients don’t read drugged - but it’s likely labeled supplements or medication or supplies
Much rather be discussing how the culture created a standard that is mostly unattainable without drugs and accepted that than arguing about how much it happens. The fact that these articles in favor of ace exist is plenty of evidence about how pervasive it is
I have so many thoughts about this discussion… But in short, it is sad and scary for me as an up-and-coming professional in the horse industry.
Just to add two more reasons why I hate the idea of Ace being legalized(skimmed most posts, so possibly previously mentioned):
- Do the trainers/owners/riders that are promoting the legalization of Ace realize that this will only hurt them as far as blue ribbons and winnings go? I mean, if Ace were legal and everyone started using it, then horses that were not competitive before for being that tad bit more spritely, are now competitive against these already drugged, mechanic robots that win everything regardless. Just seems like the few people condoning this for their advantage have not thought the long term outcome of the market through. They will simply make it possible for my 40k peppy hunter to place against their 100k machine.
- For people suggesting that USEF needs to do this test and that test to ensure the proper dosage is actually administered or to penalize those that run the horses legs into the ground the morning of- USEF is hardly capable (or maybe willing is the better word) of enforcing the current rules regarding drugging and soundness/overworking. What makes people think they are going to step their game up to ensure things are tested more and better when things like Ace are legal? I highly doubt they ever will, so at the end of the day, you’ll still have people like most of the posters here that will follow the guidelines and then people who will still cheat and ignore the rules and give more Ace or workout time than what is deemed legal. I think that the idea of legalizing a drug like Ace- that CERTAINLY does inhibit many horses’ motor skills, to reduce the problem of cheating that already exists is plain dumb. There will continue to be cheaters, just pushing the limits even further if this legalization happens.
OK, rant over. I will say I am thankful to see so many people on the same side of the argument as me, and although I disagree with the principle of the article published, COTH certainly opened the doors to facilitate a discussion that will hopefully rock the boat enough to make some sort of difference. One can only hope.
[QUOTE=BostonHJ;8646801]
So buy a horse that isn’t going to run away with you trying to jump 3’. There are plenty of them out there, they’re just either not as fancy or way more money. Is it really worth it to you to need to give tranquilizers to your horse to compete when you could buy a more suitable horse and presumably get the same level of enjoyment?[/QUOTE]
Indeed. There are horse out there who can pack around those ammies who “keep the sport going” as bjd2013 says she does. But they might not be expressive jumpers or wonderful movers.
And you know what? Too damn bad. Buy the horse you can ride without cheating. If enough rich timid ammies have to do that, the performance bar may be lowered, but y’all will still be competing on a level playing field. So what’s the problem?
I say this as someone who bred a kind, mellow hunter for herself. I interviewed both parents extensively for their mental attributes. He was not the hack winner and the horse got the job done with a lot of second place ribbons; he was not the one you’d call stunning. But he was fun and I could get him to the ring by myself. This horse was rideable and consistent. My ability to show without cheating was set up in the selection of this horse’s parents.
You have to do due diligence, not buy the horse you can’t ride, cry “poor” and want some chemical help.
I don’t think anyone needs to worry that this will become a legal drug. Bill Moroney responded in COTH to Mr. Oare’s recent article and said there is no way the USEF will ever allow Ace to be used as a quieting substance.
[QUOTE=mvp;8648387]
Indeed. There are horse out there who can pack around those ammies who “keep the sport going” as bjd2013 says she does. But they might not be expressive jumpers or wonderful movers.
And you know what? Too damn bad. Buy the horse you can ride without cheating. If enough rich timid ammies have to do that, the performance bar may be lowered, but y’all will still be competing on a level playing field. So what’s the problem?
I say this as someone who bred a kind, mellow hunter for herself. I interviewed both parents extensively for their mental attributes. He was not the hack winner and the horse got the job done with a lot of second place ribbons; he was not the one you’d call stunning. But he was fun and I could get him to the ring by myself. This horse was rideable and consistent. My ability to show without cheating was set up in the selection of this horse’s parents.
You have to do due diligence, not buy the horse you can’t ride, cry “poor” and want some chemical help.[/QUOTE]
I bred one of those as well, except he is the hack winner, but has an average jump. That jump will forever keep him from being a top contender, although he has won a lot for me and owes me nothing. And what a joy he has been to ride and train.
For many people, however, second place is simply not good enough, so they will do whatever it takes to have the winner.
[QUOTE=equisusan;8648293]
Oh good grief that’s a little black and white isn’t it? Plenty of people don’t have their horses longed, plenty of people don’t drug their horses and some cheat. What percentage cheat? Well that would require somebody to do significantly more drug testing wouldn’t it?[/QUOTE]
That would be interesting to find out what percentage of people dont drug and dont tire out their horses… Sad that its probably impossible to find out
[QUOTE=Manni01;8648455]
That would be interesting to find out what percentage of people dont drug and dont tire out their horses… Sad that its probably impossible to find out[/QUOTE]
Certainly unlikely. I hear it so much that I wonder how prevalent it is. It’s like the jumper trainers who take their horses offsite for a day during the shows and they come back jumping up like there are trolls in every jump. Cheaters/abusers will cheat/abuse but it would be nice to cut down on them.
[QUOTE=Bogie;8648252]
I had an interesting conversation at HITS. I was watching a horse in the warm up ring that I would have pulled m eye teeth to own. Ammy rider. Quiet. Incredible jump. I said to the woman’s trainer that I thought it was a spectacular horse. His reply, “and it doesn’t need any prep to be like that.”
The problem is that those horses are few and far between. I can’t imagine the price tag on the horse I was watching :eek:.
I also found it interesting that the trainer would even MENTION that it required no prep.[/QUOTE]
Prep does not necessarily mean drugging. My barn talks about prep all the time – meaning, preparing a horse for the hunter or eq ring as a whole. I have a GP jumper turned Adult Ammy hunter in his golden years. He can get a little up. So his prep includes a nice long gallop on schooling day with floppy reins, hacks in the morning to get him loose and relaxed, and arriving to the ring early before my class to walk on a long rein. Followed by some good flatwork and maybe 3 jumps.
When we first bought him, we were looking at some videos where he was wayyy too up for the eq ring and my trainer said, “I think they just didn’t prep him well enough.” Someone listening might have assumed she meant they didn’t drug him. But I do all the grooming, tacking, medicating (he gets Previcox within the allowed limits), braiding, hacking, etc. myself, so I know he’s not getting drugged. We had to work with a horse who gets a bit up at shows despite his extensive training and experience, and we’ve found a routine that works pretty darn well.
As far as Ace goes, I don’t think it should be allowed in the show ring. But I also think some of the alternatives are FAR worse.
[QUOTE=541hunter;8648556]
Prep does not necessarily mean drugging. My barn talks about prep all the time – meaning, preparing a horse for the hunter or eq ring as a whole. I have a GP jumper turned Adult Ammy hunter in his golden years. He can get a little up. So his prep includes a nice long gallop on schooling day with floppy reins, hacks in the morning to get him loose and relaxed, and arriving to the ring early before my class to walk on a long rein. Followed by some good flatwork and maybe 3 jumps.
When we first bought him, we were looking at some videos where he was wayyy too up for the eq ring and my trainer said, “I think they just didn’t prep him well enough.” Someone listening might have assumed she meant they didn’t drug him. But I do all the grooming, tacking, medicating (he gets Previcox within the allowed limits), braiding, hacking, etc. myself, so I know he’s not getting drugged. We had to work with a horse who gets a bit up at shows despite his extensive training and experience, and we’ve found a routine that works pretty darn well.
As far as Ace goes, I don’t think it should be allowed in the show ring. But I also think some of the alternatives are FAR worse.[/QUOTE]
The word prep has been hijacked as a way to sugar coat giving the horse XYZ drug. Sounds a lot better to customers than we gave that horse some calming drugs.
[QUOTE=OTTB_;8648574]
The word prep has been hijacked as a way to sugar coat giving the horse XYZ drug. Sounds a lot better to customers than we gave that horse some calming drugs.[/QUOTE]
I understand that sometimes people use it that way. But to assume that every time someone says “prep” they mean USEF-prohibited drugs is a false assumption.
