Equitation horses and drugs

[anon510129]

I am humbled by all of the sane people on this thread.

I was employed by a trainer at one point in my short-lived professional career who was a BNT and I had only ever ridden a horse on Ace when we were at home, because it had been on stall rest/hand walked for months. I admire that for the same reason my mother would not even considering drugging my horse when I was a jr.

I wish we had galloping days of eq. classes still! And the hunter derbies…it was so refreshing to see Lauren Hough ride in the derby at Thermal because to me, that was so exciting and a change of pace! Literally.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=BAC;8646384]
But Kip still has hunters doesn’t she? Eq horses are not the only ones being drugged. I’m not doubting your mother’s integrity.

Molly I am glad COTH publishes these articles in the Horseman’s Forum and it would never occur to me that COTH supports their position just by publishing them. It’s a big issue in the industry and should be discussed.[/QUOTE]

It may be a big issue in the industry, but the idea of legalizing drugs is one that needs to stay in the shadows; it is so illegitimate, that it is kind of like the idea of legalizing rape because consent can be so hard to get. The idea of drugging horses to meet an almost impossible standard is given legitimacy by being published in COTH–not once, but twice.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8647454]
Having ridden a lightly aced horse (rehabbing on stall rest) I found the feeling scary and I would not want to jump a horse like that. He felt dulled rather than quiet, as though his reaction time was slowed and his coordination was off. This is a naturally quiet horse to start with but to me it felt scarily different than when he’s tired/low energy but still has sharp senses[/QUOTE]

Horses react differently to Ace and the effects are not predictable. When my TB was rehabbing from a check ligament injury, I aced him for turnout and for my early rides. If I hadn’t given him the shot myself, I would never have believed he was aced. And yes, I aced him before he got excited.

No, I don’t believe that Ace should be allowed as prep for shows. I don’t agree with the way many classes are judged right now. I saw a hunter derby in Florida where some of the horses crawled over the fences and were so heavy on their forehands that it looked like they were digging a hole around the ring. They looked more like a Western Pleasure horse over fences than hunters . I will say that some of those horses looked drugged and I wouldn’t have wanted to hunt any of them.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=woodhillsmanhattan;8647520]
Rolex is FEI sanctioned…I am not sure if ingredients in Perfect Prep would be allowed at all? They have to be careful what poultices and hoof packing they use let alone what the horse ingests or gets injected into them. It certainly happens at the USEF sanctioned events though. But definitely not to the extremes of the hunter industry![/QUOTE]

Jock Paget got disqualified from a win at Burghley because he gave his horse a prep tube before dressage that turned to have been contaminated with reserpine. So it appears that at least two (another Burghley competitor used the same prep) 4* event riders don’t mind giving things that they think will help calm their horses for dressage.

[flashwhitelock]

PC

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8643570]
Read the article today. Yes, I was irritated to see yet another article trying to say we should legalize acepromazine. But, perhaps shining the cold light of day on the practices that eq and hunter horses go through will spur change. I can’t imagine any decent horse person reading that article without cringing. Though, the change that we need is NOT legalizing acepromazine. :no: What we need is a change in judging, not a legal way to help turn horses into opinionless robots. :no:

I do find it weird how the Chronicle belabors the problems of the hunter and equitation rings on one page and then glorifies winning hunters and eq riders with fancy pictures on the next, and then totally ignores Pony Club, where drugging is a non-issue, kids take care of their own horses, and are judged on their horsemanship.

The truth is, our current horse world culture places a LOT of value on jumping big (or little) jumps at fancy shows on a fancy horse and winning ribbons, but very little real value on horsemanship. But I also think The Chronicle is in a unique position where they could, if they wanted, find a way to shine a little bit of light and glory on good horsemanship as demonstrated by both young people and adults.[/QUOTE]

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Maybe if Pony Club were considered more “sexy” instead of being belittled by the hunter world, they might get change from within. I miss the 70’s where it was common to change horses in even the low level equitation classes. But then, kids also rode mostly TB’s. hmmmmm.

[vxf111]

So what if some horses tolerate ace well?! Some don’t and are dangerous. You want to trust drug-n-win trainers to parse the difference and make decisions in the horse’s best interst?! I don’t want to see even one accident caused by this behavior no matter how many safe rounds it might also produce

[DMK]

I mean with all logic applied, and if we follow this ridiculous argument to its conclusion for vxf’s sake,

YES, I would expect proponents of the rule to administer ace in a way that maximized their client’s chance at winning (of which safety is a by product). They are not stupid. They would test it thoroughly and damn sure make sure they had the dosage right. Proponents of this rule do not want to give ace for the sake of promoting the needle and syringe industry, they want to win. And you know what doesn’t win? Horses who knock down rails and trot through fences. They are about as ribbonless as hot horses. Maybe even more so.

There are a thousand intelligent reasons to oppose this rule, not the least of which is “what DO you do with the horse who is a cheap drunk” or “how soon is it before there is a better option out there that gets a horse closer to "opinionless?” without resorting to safety arguments that just make no sense.

(Hint - answer to above questions? Some trainers will find a better mousetrap, an untestable mousetrap, and the game will continue with possibly the only dubious “benefit” being that USEF won’t have to spend $$ testing for ace.)

Trainers who put their clients in danger have WAY MORE opportunities today and yet the vast majority realize they are not named as beneficiaries in the will, so do their level best to keep their clients alive.

[vxf111]

And when Dobbin has an uncharacteristic lightweight day?! Or the grooms screw up the dose? Or the ammy is having an unusually nervous day so the trainer makes a last minute decision to up the usual dose? Right now ace is prohibited. So while many other bad things could happen, a crash due to ace shouldn’t, at least. People who prefer ribbons to horses can’t be trusted to self police an animal welfare issue

[Pussy_Cat]

@BeeHoney;8643570

I do find it weird how the Chronicle belabors the problems of the hunter and equitation rings on one page and then glorifies winning hunters and eq riders with fancy pictures on the next, and then totally ignores Pony Club, where drugging is a non-issue, kids take care of their own horses, and are judged on their horsemanship.

@flashwhitelock;8647567

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Maybe if Pony Club were considered more “sexy” instead of being belittled by the hunter world, they might get change from within. I miss the 70’s where it was common to change horses in even the low level equitation classes. But then, kids also rode mostly TB’s. hmmmmm.

If you think there aren’t a boatload of ponies competing on ACE and other USEF illegal drugs at pony club rallies then you haven’t been to one in a while.

[Backstage]

@DMK;8647595

YES, I would expect proponents of the rule to administer ace in a way that maximized their client’s chance at winning (of which safety is a by product). They are not stupid. They would test it thoroughly and damn sure make sure they had the dosage right. Proponents of this rule do not want to give ace for the sake of promoting the needle and syringe industry, they want to win. And you know what doesn’t win? Horses who knock down rails and trot through fences. They are about as ribbonless as hot horses. Maybe even more so.

There are a thousand intelligent reasons to oppose this rule, not the least of which is “what DO you do with the horse who is a cheap drunk” or “how soon is it before there is a better option out there that gets a horse closer to "opinionless?” without resorting to safety arguments that just make no sense.

(Hint - answer to above questions? Some trainers will find a better mousetrap, an untestable mousetrap, and the game will continue with possibly the only dubious “benefit” being that USEF won’t have to spend $$ testing for ace.)

Trainers who put their clients in danger have WAY MORE opportunities today and yet the vast majority realize they are not named as beneficiaries in the will, so do their level best to keep their clients alive.

Sorry, but I’m not buying. I, like vxf111, have ridden my horse lightly while on Ace for rehab purposes. Could he have jumped a course in that condition, without trotting through fences or knocking down rails? Absolutely. Would I be able to confidently, and definitively state that he would consistently jump me out of trouble in that state? Absolutely not.

Even a totally sober horse can make a mistake, or find himself unable to compensate for the human failings of his pilot. We have all seen crashes that were not the result of dulled instincts due to drugging. So, I do think there is a very valid safety risk here in addition to the other valid concerns. Trainers could test the dosages all they want, but if the drug is having an “beneficial” effect on performance, it is also dulling their instincts and reaction times when it comes to dealing with trouble.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Pussy Cat;8647617]
If you think there aren’t a boatload of ponies competing on ACE and other USEF illegal drugs at pony club rallies then you haven’t been to one in a while.[/QUOTE]

As well as another boatload (or two) of horses and ponies competing on ACE, etc., at local/schooling/unrated/associate shows every weekend under the care of trainers far less sophisticated than the BNTs/BNOs being demonized here.

[DMK]

As a person who has ridden a lightweight horse on ace, a “normal” one and a not so lightweight one, a lightweight in my experience never gets lighter.

Sorry, I’m just not buying it. There is WAY TOO MUCH experience with using ace in the hunt field, at home and at unrated competitions for too many people to buy the argument that people don’t know how to manage dosage. You probably don’t have a clue when you have seen an aced horse being ridden the vast majority of times, I know I can’t tell. Could shit happen to a rider? It’s a horse. Shit can always happen. It’s not like I look back on my worst inexplicable falls and think, “that darn ace.” Ace wasn’t even in the picture and we still went ass over tea kettle.

This topic is way too important to settle for a bad argument.

[ynl063w]

I agree with DMK. The trainers that everyone is clutching their pearls over whether they’ll get the dose of Ace right, or if they’ll instead end up killing their clients out of ignorance, are dosing those same horses with plenty of other stuff already, and their clients not only survive weekend after weekend, but often win. This is a weak argument at best.

[Ghazzu]

It is true that ace has a pretty decent therapeutic index (effective dose compared to dose at which adverse effects are seen), but do remember that there have been at least a few horses who fell off a needle at shows after being medicated by trainers.

I’m just disgusted we even have to have this conversation, especially as regards equitation horses.

Isn’t part of equitation being able to read a horse and communicate with it effectively?

[equisusan]

So ynl063w and DMK are you saying you support the USEF legalizing ace?

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8647705]
It is true that ace has a pretty decent therapeutic index (effective dose compared to dose at which adverse effects are seen), but do remember that there have been at least a few horses who fell off a needle at shows after being medicated by trainers.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone has forgotten those few instances. But the key word is “few”. Much, much more often than not, the trainers who are drugging their clients horses are seeing positive results - if they weren’t, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Horses dropping at the end of a needle at a horse show is so rare that it doesn’t really even factor into the issue.

I agree that it’s disgusting that we are having this conversation, but I don’t think it’s any worse with regards to equitation horses than with any other discipline. I think the biggest part of mastering any discipline is being able to read and communicate effectively with a horse, and I don’t think pharmaceuticals should ever enter into that part of the relationship between horse and rider.

[Foxtrot_s]

It is just getting more common across the board, in whatever discipline they are showing in, whatever breed show.

Years ago we never saw sharps containers at the end of each shed row, now they
are everywhere, and full.

Never heard of drugging our hunt horses back in the day, now they are routinely drugged as they leave home.

Can nobody ride a horse any more?

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=DMK;8647664]
As a person who has ridden a lightweight horse on ace, a “normal” one and a not so lightweight one, a lightweight in my experience never gets lighter.

.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it’s always the case, if you consider a couple of other potential factors–possible interactions with other medications or even a subclinical liver issue that impedes the normal rate of metabolism or that animal

Not that it would be at all a common problem but worth considering in the risk/benefit analysis.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8647739]
Never heard of drugging our hunt horses back in the day, [/QUOTE]

If there is just one thing that we should all learn from this thread, it’s that
you should never assume something NEVER happened simply because YOU didn’t ever see it happen. Trust me, drugging hunt horses is nothing new.

[Darkwave]

@Foxtrot's;8647739

Years ago we never saw sharps containers at the end of each shed row, now they
are everywhere, and full.

When I was showing on the east coast in the late 80s and early 90s, I assure you there were plenty of sharps containers. And many a time that I’d go to our next door neighbors to borrow a hole punch or similar, and they’d open up a tack trunk that had a load of syringes in it. And this was back before Legend/etc was being used regularly.