Equitation horses and drugs

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647054]
… I’m not arguing, just saying that 1/4 or even 1/8 of a CC isn’t going to alter a horses performance so much that it changes everything. It would be enough to save horses legs and make them last longer and live a more manageable and happy life.

Horses get nervous, people get nervous. A little Ace would be similar to an Ativan.[/QUOTE]

Ah, honey, bless your heart. I suggest you read, for a start, Tobin’s Guide to Drugs and Performance Horses. Ace definitely affects numerous physiologic systems, including reaction times at that dose and even lower, e.g. ng/ml doses.

Additionally it is listed as a sedative, e.g. sedation of the CNS and as such it is also indeed termed a tranquilizer.

Please continue in your happy world.

Reed

[bjd2013]

[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;8647159]
Actually, in doing the research for writing the COTH article “Why Not Just Allow 1/2 CC Of Ace,” I discovered that there is a distinction between sedatives and tranquilizers and the way they affect horses.

A tranquilizer, such as Ace, reduces anxiety without drowsiness or mechanical incoordination and has no analgesic (pain-reducing) effect. A sedative, such as Dormosedan, produces drowsiness, incoordination and has analgesic effects.

That difference is key in why specifically Ace is the drug being discussed for possible use in a competing horse.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Molly for clarifying. I worked for a vet in college, as an assistant, and knew there was a difference.

[snaffle1987]

I am flabbergasted by those saying that ACE should be permitted to drug horses for some of the biggest classes in this country. How about this, how about we find some judges who are not so quick to heavily penalize a forward ride, a slight side step, a slight spook and playfulness after jump. The horse IS NOT the problem. This sick show world that we’ve developed is the problem.

back in the day the equitation classes were GALLOPED like a show jumping class, no exact counted strides, no big faults for a playful horse. There is no doubting the extreme technicality of today’s big eq finals; but where do we draw the line on attempting to have the most flawless, perfect round. If it requires drugs to do that then we have gone thousands of feet backwards in this sport. whats next, drugging the rolex horses for their dressage test to take the edge off? What ever happened to truly riding and working with your mount outside of the classes and teaching young riders to RIDE.

If you need to drug your horse to compete at a horse show to win, there is a serious problem.

There is NO excuse for drugging an animal to win in the equestrian world and the is NO excuse for legally allowing it to happen

I am awfully glad I am no longer a paying member of the USEF program. A joke.

to say that Ace does not affect coordination and muscle function is wrong and misguided. Yes, it relieves anxiety in small doses but in large doses it can very much affect muscle coordination and cause extreme drowsiness.

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;8647159]
Actually, in doing the research for writing the COTH article “Why Not Just Allow 1/2 CC Of Ace,” I discovered that there is a distinction between sedatives and tranquilizers and the way they affect horses.

A tranquilizer, such as Ace, reduces anxiety without drowsiness or mechanical incoordination and has no analgesic (pain-reducing) effect. A sedative, such as Dormosedan, produces drowsiness, incoordination and has analgesic effects.

That difference is key in why specifically Ace is the drug being discussed for possible use in a competing horse.[/QUOTE]

My 17.1H horse practically falls down with 1/2cc of ace (that was given to him to pull his mane when he was 6) so something is wrong with the information you got IMO. I do agree that it has no analgesic effects and I appreciate that you did some research into it. It seems to me that medications react differently in different people and probably horses. In addition to being unethical and unsportsmanlike: to me, the liability of this makes it a nonstarter.

And I am someone who supports the current medication rules and the use of NSAIDs for horses so I don’t think we need to move to Fei rules.

[BostonHJ]

I think it is widely accepted that some horses seem to tolerate a high level of ace with a limited reaction and others are “cheap dates.” I am having such a hard time wrapping my head around people saying it is a good idea simply because it is the best of the bad ideas.

[snaffle1987]

And to add to it, whatever BNT out there who consider themselves “good/great Trainers” and who have stated they so agree with the mentioned article and would follow suit; you can now cross yourself off of the good/great trainer list because you’re simply not a trainer if you believe in drugging a horse to get a preferred performance out of it. training does not equal drugging.

[snowrider]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647054]
Ace does not sedate a horse, there’s a difference. And like I said before I donated my horse, and am out a lot of money because it wasn’t working. He was naturally quiet (at home is a stick and spur ride, and even hacking at the shows). I didn’t have 150k+ to buy a horse, so instead I bought one who had done the Baby Greens one time, and was going to be a perfect average adult horse for me to have. Turns out he got fresh in the show ring and took a ton of lunging and cantering on him to get him to the ring. So I chose not to do that, and let him live a happy life not being ridden into the ground. I’m not arguing, just saying that 1/4 or even 1/8 of a CC isn’t going to alter a horses performance so much that it changes everything. It would be enough to save horses legs and make them last longer and live a more manageable and happy life.

Horses get nervous, people get nervous. A little Ace would be similar to an Ativan.[/QUOTE]
If money was an issue why not sell the horse? Plenty of work for a nice jumping horse even if he’s not AA Hunter quiet. These horses are not worthless, I think that’s a false dichotomy we see too much on this board. There are lots of thing you can do with a horse that won’t pin in the hunters.

[RAyers]

[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;8647159]
Actually, in doing the research for writing the COTH article “Why Not Just Allow 1/2 CC Of Ace,” I discovered that there is a distinction between sedatives and tranquilizers and the way they affect horses.

A tranquilizer, such as Ace, reduces anxiety without drowsiness or mechanical incoordination and has no analgesic (pain-reducing) effect. A sedative, such as Dormosedan, produces drowsiness, incoordination and has analgesic effects.

That difference is key in why specifically Ace is the drug being discussed for possible use in a competing horse.[/QUOTE]

Interesting because I am looking at the scientific and medical research as far back as 1978 and there is clear evidence that Ace can produce mechanical deficit as well as CNS sedation.

Can you please refer me to your sources? Again, I would suggest looking at Tobin’s original work on racehorses and developing the tests for Ace 40 years ago.

I too worked for vets and continue to conduct research at both human and veterinary hospitals.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=BostonHJ;8647197]
I think it is widely accepted that some horses seem to tolerate a high level of ace with a limited reaction and others are “cheap dates.” I am having such a hard time wrapping my head around people saying it is a good idea simply because it is the best of the bad ideas.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. Unlike therapeutic NSAIDs, for example, how can we really set a safe threshold for use of Ace? And what happens with the horses who hardly bat an eyelash at, say, 2cc but the threshold was set at 1/2cc? Then would people be giving Ace AND Perfect Prep and LTD and whatever else for the poor horse with a higher tolerance? And what happens to the lightweight who is maybe getting Ace for the first time and 1/2cc is too much and there’s an accident? Liability nightmare.

[NCRider]

Re: Rolex, particularly for a three day, I would guess that some of them got a tube or more of Perfect Prep for the dressage so don’t assume this uglyness is not there too. As the $ grows in eventing, The nasty part of the industry becomes more widespread there too.

[bjd2013]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8647254]
If money was an issue why not sell the horse? Plenty of work for a nice jumping horse even if he’s not AA Hunter quiet. These horses are not worthless, I think that’s a false dichotomy we see too much on this board. There are lots of thing you can do with a horse that won’t pin in the hunters.[/QUOTE]

I used the write off on my taxes, and I didn’t want him to go anywhere where hevwould have to show again. He is a nice horse, imported, definitely couldn’t do the jumpers or dressage (had a friend look at him who did dressage and didn’t think he was appealing). He is great at home, just required to much prep to get to the ring. So I made the decision to let him live a happy life not showing and staying sound. And selling him I wouldn’t have gotten probably any more than I did donating him.

[MtnDrmz]

IME Ace definitely can seem to have an affect on coordination and drowsiness. Granted who knows what their understanding of drowsiness would be from that research? I have seen large horses get knocked out by 1/4 CC, and I have seen Ponies give you the side eye and seemingly laugh at your 1/2 CC while they go leaping through the air. I will say that I do think horses “break” through Ace more easily and maybe this is due the “reduced axiety” rather then be a sedative??? I just see absolutely no sane way how it could be imlemented for competition and especially not at a catch all level such as 1/4 CC is acceptable.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647054]
Ace does not sedate a horse.[/QUOTE]

Umm yes, it does sedate a horse. the chemical is a neuroleptic agent with a depressant effect on the CNS.

If you don’t believe me, perhaps you will believe “Plumb’s Veterinary Drug Handbook”, one of the standard references in veterinary medicine.

“The primary desired effect for the use of acepromazine in veterinary medicine is its tranquilizing/sedating action.”

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;8647159]
Actually, in doing the research for writing the COTH article “Why Not Just Allow 1/2 CC Of Ace,” I discovered that there is a distinction between sedatives and tranquilizers and the way they affect horses.

A tranquilizer, such as Ace, reduces anxiety without drowsiness or mechanical incoordination and has no analgesic (pain-reducing) effect. A sedative, such as Dormosedan, produces drowsiness, incoordination and has analgesic effects.

That difference is key in why specifically Ace is the drug being discussed for possible use in a competing horse.[/QUOTE]

No offense, but have you never seen a horse become uncoordinated or drowsy from the effects of acepromazine?

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647318]
I used the write off on my taxes, and I didn’t want him to go anywhere where hevwould have to show again. He is a nice horse, imported, definitely couldn’t do the jumpers or dressage (had a friend look at him who did dressage and didn’t think he was appealing). He is great at home, just required to much prep to get to the ring. So I made the decision to let him live a happy life not showing and staying sound. And selling him I wouldn’t have gotten probably any more than I did donating him.[/QUOTE]

You know I said we didn’t agree on anything but I can agree that you get to make the decisions on your own horse. I know plenty of people who have donated horses including me and it is a hard decision. I also know plenty of people who use Ace at home or to field hunt and although I disagree with it and I’d be pissed if anyone gave it to one of my horses without my knowledge it’s not my decision when it’s not my horse.

[vxf111]

Having ridden a lightly aced horse (rehabbing on stall rest) I found the feeling scary and I would not want to jump a horse like that. He felt dulled rather than quiet, as though his reaction time was slowed and his coordination was off. This is a naturally quiet horse to start with but to me it felt scarily different than when he’s tired/low energy but still has sharp senses

[daisycutter]

A larger conversation…

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8643570]
I do find it weird how the Chronicle belabors the problems of the hunter and equitation rings on one page and then glorifies winning hunters and eq riders with fancy pictures on the next[/QUOTE]

I applaud the Chronicle for taking on the contentious issue of how we treat our show horses, even when its findings cast a dubious light on its other mission of reporting “the news” in the horse show world…

It’s a difficult line they are walking, but in the end giving voice to the issue of horse “quieting,” and the ways and reasons it is done, does a real service to the horses, to most clients, and in the end, to the industry itself. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing if we are now looking at those gorgeous, glossy photos in the same issue with a degree of skepticism…

The conversation started by the Chronicle is bigger than merely how to responsibly and humanely prep horses for the show ring. It opens the door to a larger conversation about corruption–one that we desperately need to have–about ethics, professionalism, transparency in sales transactions, the true definition of horsemanship.

Kip Rosenthal says, “The top trainers, horses, and riders are the best because of their vast knowledge, expertise, and repetition. This is why they win!” But she also says that the winning horse “has to be rendered opinion-less!” I think we all can read the contradiction here.

Conversely, Patty Heuckeroth makes an eloquent and compelling rebuttal to Rosenthal in “9 Arguments Against Ace.” Unfortunately, her brand of patient, educated horsemanship (and her policy of showing in moderation) is no longer the norm. I had the pleasure of watching Ms. Heuckeroth ride the most beautiful hunter round I have ever seen at Upperville, in 2011. I didn’t know who she was, so I asked someone. “Oh, that’s Patty Heuckeroth. She is the best.”

Indeed.

[equisusan]

I agree daisycutter

[woodhillsmanhattan]

The legalization of ACE is just promoting putting a square peg in a round hole. If after proper training, consistent show exposure/experience, hacking in the ring in the AM or light lunge (I am not advocating running your horses legs off in a tight circle, just letting them stretch and get the bucks out maybe), and hypothetically fair judging standards that don’t penalize a horse for being a horse not a robot (these exist right? HA! :lol:), you still need medical intervention to get your “hunter” quiet, then your horse doesn’t want to be a hunter!

Criteria printed in the USEF rulebook includes phrases such as “mannerisms”, “suitability”, “style”, etc. This are JUDGED attributes. The judges should be able to get a perception for whether the horse possesses these training/mental qualities on a given day…not whether chemical intervention produced them. I agree with those that have said if you want to allow drugs, the judges should get full disclosure of what the horse is showing on.

[woodhillsmanhattan]

[QUOTE=NCRider;8647311]
Re: Rolex, particularly for a three day, I would guess that some of them got a tube or more of Perfect Prep for the dressage so don’t assume this uglyness is not there too. As the $ grows in eventing, The nasty part of the industry becomes more widespread there too.[/QUOTE]

Rolex is FEI sanctioned…I am not sure if ingredients in Perfect Prep would be allowed at all? They have to be careful what poultices and hoof packing they use let alone what the horse ingests or gets injected into them. It certainly happens at the USEF sanctioned events though. But definitely not to the extremes of the hunter industry!