Do you think being a jumper is a guarantee the horse isn’t on Ace? I remember a few years back reading an article about Kip and her group of relative newcomers to riding and showing, maybe that’s when she changed her opinion on using Ace? I’m not saying she definitely drugs her horses, but clearly she is in favor of using it, so how do you know for sure? Just saying I wouldn’t be giving any guarantees because you might be very disappointed in the reality.
So yet another BNT says Ace is a good idea. Yet again us peons are outraged.
How does this advance the ball any?!
The same comments are bandied about but nothing changes.
Dear USEF,
Your responsibility to drug test at shows has just been made the easiest job, ever. Now that you know who is drugging, by their very own admissions, we expect results.
Sincerely,
Your members who actually play by the rules and put our horses’ welfare first.
Molly, thank you for the COTH perspective. I would find it a tough set of editorial decisions, but clearly you all are striving to do the right thing.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8646262]
This would be a great way to end Hunters. Why not just go to an FEI format then? Sorry, but I think by making so many rules and cracking down on drugs and medicating that we’ve actually made it much harder on the horses. Instead of helping them, we are hindering them. That’s why top professionals support legalizing something. Sorry, but I had one who at home was perfect, perfect, perfect but at shows needed to canter, canter, canter and then canter some more. He ended up getting donated because I didn’t think it was fair to wear him down like that. It wasn’t that he was in pain or didn’t like his job, just would get in the ring and wake up. There’s more horses like that vs. naturally quiet. I’m no pro, quite the opposite actually, and need something that goes easily. I love riding and showing, but don’t want to get run away with trying to jump 3’. And like it or not, people like me keep this sport going.[/QUOTE]
So buy a horse that isn’t going to run away with you trying to jump 3’. There are plenty of them out there, they’re just either not as fancy or way more money. Is it really worth it to you to need to give tranquilizers to your horse to compete when you could buy a more suitable horse and presumably get the same level of enjoyment?
[QUOTE=inca;8646207]
Thank you. I don’t know if that is new wording of the rule or I was just completely mistaken. But, I do appreciate you posting the rule.[/QUOTE]
I think they did change the wording some for 2016. Although baby greens are unrated, they are subject to zone rules. I’d think if the horse is considered not to have broken green for rated competition then it could show as such unrated.
[QUOTE=BostonHJ;8646801]
So buy a horse that isn’t going to run away with you trying to jump 3’. There are plenty of them out there, they’re just either not as fancy or way more money. Is it really worth it to you to need to give tranquilizers to your horse to compete when you could buy a more suitable horse and presumably get the same level of enjoyment?[/QUOTE]
So much easier said than done. Sorry I’m not made of $$$$$$$$ and can’t just go out and buy a new horse whenever I need to. The one I donated I lost a lot of money on, didn’t even get back barely what I paid for him, let alone what I had put into him trying to make it work. Now I’m just leasing something in barn. Now he’s in a college program doing God knows what. And to the person earlier who said just ride at home, that’s an option always, but I like to show. I showed as a kid and haven’t really stopped. I love it. And I did try taking him to shows to get him use to it, a whole year of 1-2x a month of showing for it to only get worse. I didn’t even show him the last 6-7x because I thought maybe it was me causing it.
I’m not necessarily saying yes to allowing Ace, but I’m not saying no either. I could still have my average fun horse going around if he could get enough to knock the nerves off where he wouldn’t have to lunge into the ground to go. So I can see where a lot of top trainers would say sure, because they see a lot worse going on then that.
I would not assume from her viewpoint that Kip R drugs her horses to compete, or wishes she could. When this top pro and others are saying Ace should be permitted, my thought is that it’s because they know that what happens in some barns to prep the horses is far worse. And perhaps does not occur on the showgrounds (eg putting a horse on the walker for half the night, administering magnesium before hacking over to the horse show, etc).
As for questioning why people leave the hunter ring, when it costs $1k per weekend to compete, not being competitive week after week would get a little hard to stomach. When I had one that hated being a hunter and took too much prep, I started foxhunting him and never looked back. In fact, I haven’t had any interest in showing since. But then, I didn’t plunk down $100k or more on that horse. It’s got to be much harder to walk away when that kind of money is at stake. Not that it’s justified to use nefarious methods, but that is one of the drivers.
All in all, a sad state of affairs and what these viewpoints suggest is that the USEF really needs to stop providing lip service when it comes to horse welfare and start taking action.
[QUOTE=PKP;8646741]
Dear USEF,
Your responsibility to drug test at shows has just been made the easiest job, ever. Now that you know who is drugging, by their very own admissions, we expect results.
Sincerely,
Your members who actually play by the rules and put our horses’ welfare first.[/QUOTE]
Please… do you really think that any of the trainers/owners named are using ace? At rated shows? I mean since the 70’s?
They are simply stating that they think things are just that bad that maybe a little ace would level the playing field and reduce overall the pounding/other medications issue. Whether you agree with them or not, that is a LONG way from behaving illegally.
I emphatically do NOT agree with them, but I’ll keep my leaps in logic contained for the moment.
I’m not made of money either and would wager my horse cost less than the vast majority at an AA show, but he was born quiet and that’s why I bought him. There are plenty out there - again, they might jump a 7 instead of a 10, but wouldn’t you rather ride something naturally quiet than sedated? Not to mention the safety factor. I’m sorry, but “because I want to” is not a great reason.
[QUOTE=inca;8646207]
Thank you. I don’t know if that is new wording of the rule or I was just completely mistaken. But, I do appreciate you posting the rule.[/QUOTE]
You didn’t bold the other important part of the that rule when you quoted IPEsq’s post, inca.
HU Rule 103 from the 2016 rulebook-
Determining Hunter eligibility for horses. Hunter eligibility for a horse begins when a horse of any age, competes for the first time in any over fences class with jumps set at three feet (3’0") in height or higher in Hunter or Hunter/Jumping Seat Equitation classes or sections held at a USEF or Equine Canada Licensed competition in North America
Eligibility is not broken until the horse sets foot in a HUNTER/EQ class (with a few exceptions that are tied to age and height). This was a change to the 2015 rules, I believe, as I had a young horse for sale that benefitted from the rule change and was eligible everything despite showing in the jumpers for several years in North America. I didn’t break his eligibilities until I stuck him in the Large Working Hunter division at his first hunter show.
How many horses are really that wild that after all these shows they still need drugs? Shouldn’t the judge have the ability and backbone to pin a class in their opinion despite horses being alive? A good judge can see the diffrence between a horse playing and a horse acting naughty because of the riders skills. Like in a lead change.
Is a good eq rider able to Ride a fresher horse correctly around? Maybe they can show off better skills? Isn’t it better to produce a good round on a horse that might be a bit fresher or spooky than doing a good round on a doped horse?
Eq is judged on the rider and not the overall picture like the hunters.
[QUOTE=BostonHJ;8646959]
I’m not made of money either and would wager my horse cost less than the vast majority at an AA show, but he was born quiet and that’s why I bought him. There are plenty out there - again, they might jump a 7 instead of a 10, but wouldn’t you rather ride something naturally quiet than sedated? Not to mention the safety factor. I’m sorry, but “because I want to” is not a great reason.[/QUOTE]
Ace does not sedate a horse, there’s a difference. And like I said before I donated my horse, and am out a lot of money because it wasn’t working. He was naturally quiet (at home is a stick and spur ride, and even hacking at the shows). I didn’t have 150k+ to buy a horse, so instead I bought one who had done the Baby Greens one time, and was going to be a perfect average adult horse for me to have. Turns out he got fresh in the show ring and took a ton of lunging and cantering on him to get him to the ring. So I chose not to do that, and let him live a happy life not being ridden into the ground. I’m not arguing, just saying that 1/4 or even 1/8 of a CC isn’t going to alter a horses performance so much that it changes everything. It would be enough to save horses legs and make them last longer and live a more manageable and happy life.
Horses get nervous, people get nervous. A little Ace would be similar to an Ativan.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647054]
Ace does not sedate a horse, there’s a difference.[/QUOTE]
Huh? Ace is a sedative. And every animal responds differently to different meds and doses just like people who would not all be safe taking a little Ativan and riding.
In addition, a human makes that choice for themselves. Would it be ok to give your friend a little Ativan without their consent? 
Ace is definitely a sedative…
[QUOTE=equisusan;8647085]
Huh? Ace is a sedative. And every animal responds differently to different meds and doses just like people who would not all be safe taking a little Ativan and riding.[/QUOTE]
Ace is a tranquilizer. Dorm would be a sedative. Major difference. I know many people who live on some type of Benzo, and they function just fine driving, riding, etc.
ETA: Everything we do to horses is without their consent if you want to argue that.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8647092]
Ace is a tranquilizer. Dorm would be a sedative. Major difference. I know many people who live on some type of Benzo, and they function just fine driving, riding, etc.
ETA: Everything we do to horses is without their consent if you want to argue that.[/QUOTE]
We disagree - on everything. Carry on
[QUOTE=supershorty628;8643472]
Okay, I feel like I need to interject for a moment.
I’m as horrified by the idea presented in the article as the next person - and I was stunned when I saw who authored it. But I think it’s important to know that while Kip presented that side of the issue, she does not engage in that type of behavior.
As many of you know, I grew up riding with Kip; I started with her when I was 10 and was a working student up until I permanently moved to Minnesota 2 years ago. As the resident barn rat, I saw what went on “behind the scenes,” if you will. Which is to say, nothing. I never even saw a tube of Perfect Prep or any of that woo-woo that people try - that was not done. Horses were hacked/schooled in the mornings (often by me), some got a 10-15 minute longe, and a few of the horses who were getting up there in age got some Adequan or Legend, and perhaps a [legal] dose of an NSAID after a big class. There was nothing nefarious done.
I can’t disagree more with the idea of using Ace for showing. I think it’s absolutely the wrong thing to do, no questions asked, and I’m not going to pretend to understand why Kip wrote that article - because I don’t. It’s not reflective of the trainer I rode with for 13 years. But in any event, I can assure you that when I was riding there, she was one of the people who got horses to the ring the right way… without any training by pharmaceutical, and continues to be.
I don’t understand it. But I can guarantee she does not drug.
Carry on.[/QUOTE]
I know you adore Kip and have had a long and positive relationship with her. I can only imagine how you must be feeling about that article.
I’ll just say, as someone who also rode at that barn for a time, that your experience was not universal and that I don’t think you can guarantee what you’d like to in this case. It’s very sad, IMO, but sometimes we put people on pedestals they don’t necessarily deserve, particularly those we admire when we are growing up.
This sort of attitude among trainers and judges and the realities of the hunter ring were what turned me off to the sport several years ago. And I had a super nice, naturally quiet horse that needed no prep to go to the ring. I just didn’t want to be around those kinds of programs, even if they didn’t involve my particular horse. I find the idea of a “sport” where most participants have to be drugged in order to be considered competitive is just completely repulsive.
I moved to dressage, (where actually my horse’s very quiet nature is not particularly an asset,) and I’ve been very happy with the switch. I also just got a lovely new young horse to bring along as well and I pop him over some jumps at home for fun, but he’ll never show in H/J-land. We’ll stick with dressage from a competition perspective; I really love the way most exhibitors care for their own horses, and the various levels allow me tons of options to compete as an amateur and keep moving up as our skills improve.
[QUOTE=bjd2013;8646908]
So much easier said than done. Sorry I’m not made of $$$$$$$$ and can’t just go out and buy a new horse whenever I need to. The one I donated I lost a lot of money on, didn’t even get back barely what I paid for him, let alone what I had put into him trying to make it work. Now I’m just leasing something in barn. Now he’s in a college program doing God knows what. And to the person earlier who said just ride at home, that’s an option always, but I like to show. I showed as a kid and haven’t really stopped. I love it. And I did try taking him to shows to get him use to it, a whole year of 1-2x a month of showing for it to only get worse. I didn’t even show him the last 6-7x because I thought maybe it was me causing it.
I’m not necessarily saying yes to allowing Ace, but I’m not saying no either. I could still have my average fun horse going around if he could get enough to knock the nerves off where he wouldn’t have to lunge into the ground to go. So I can see where a lot of top trainers would say sure, because they see a lot worse going on then that.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you’ve possibly bought the wrong horse more than once. I’ve done that also and have also given horses away. But that is not justification to drug a horse. There is not a right to show or win. If your horse is a disaster but you just have to show then go show and get last place if that is what you deserve. I’ve been there, that’s how I realized the horse was worth $0. Sometimes horses develop slowly, like years!! If you can’t wait on the horse to learn, that’s ok, but don’t drug them. It’s interesting how drugging horses seems to be a substitute for buying/training horses that do their the job well. People can not accept that it’s a horse show and some horses are just much better at certain jobs than others.
There are equitation horses that can perform to the judges standards without medication BUT they cost $500,000 or more. So those of us that can’t afford that can either be ok with losing or…
[QUOTE=BostonHJ;8647090]
Ace is definitely a sedative…[/QUOTE]
Actually, in doing the research for writing the COTH article “Why Not Just Allow 1/2 CC Of Ace,” I discovered that there is a distinction between sedatives and tranquilizers and the way they affect horses.
A tranquilizer, such as Ace, reduces anxiety without drowsiness or mechanical incoordination and has no analgesic (pain-reducing) effect. A sedative, such as Dormosedan, produces drowsiness, incoordination and has analgesic effects.
That difference is key in why specifically Ace is the drug being discussed for possible use in a competing horse.
