It matters not a bit that the USEF will never allow medication. They do not allow it now and the practice is rampant. The trainers want the robotic horses. The judges are not going to rock the boat or they will not be hired back. Now that shows are all multi week circuses this is a real big deal. Trainers go to show where testers are not usually present. Stewards will not rock the boat either. There goes their paycheck. I guess owners can try to confront their trainer but it is easier to quit than fight that kind of mentality. This is supposed to be a sport and are we having fun yet?
[QUOTE=skydy;8657827]
Again…Ace nor any other other tranquilizing drug will ever be legalized by USEF no matter how many hunter trainers wish for it to be so.
It won’t happen. Period.
Are these trainers really so insulated that don’t understand what being affiliated with USEF entails? USHJA judges don’t get it? 
The FEI doesn’t allow national federations to play on the world stage if they condone drugging horses. USEF is our NF. USEF can’t make rules allowing the drugging of horses while the FEI is testing for those drugs and suspending people for using them.
It boggles the mind to think that any trainer even thinks about this out loud.[/QUOTE]
I believe you are quite right in that this rule will never be enacted as long as USEF is the governing body for the Olympic disciplines, so yes it does make you wonder why it is being voiced, and given that the people doing the talking, whatever else you might think about them, are not stupid and probably a lot closer to the rules governing this than me or you…
Which makes me wonder if this is some sort of precursor to splitting out USHJA from USEF? I bet the Saddlebreds would hop on that bus too? Because other than just voicing a frustration that I (again) wholeheartedly disagree with, I can’t figure out the end game from a smart person’s perspective.
I’ve had that same thought DMK. If they don’t get their way, will we see a new National H/J organization running their own club? Possibly with support from mega show managers some BNTs are very close with? Have non USEF days or entire shows within the mega circuits? Or drop USEF approval and just keep running on their own, after all a huge number of the classes that support these circuits are not nationally rated anyway or rated C.
[QUOTE=Dinah-do;8657946]
Now that shows are all multi week circuses this is a real big deal. Trainers go to show where testers are not usually present.[/QUOTE]
This doesn’t make sense to me. Of course the testers show up at the big multi-week show series.
You can avoid the testers, I guess. But not by showing at the biggest shows in the country, week in and week out.
To the degree that widespread drugging is happening today, it is happening with substances that “don’t test.” People using medications that are known to be illegal and showing on the big circuits will get caught.
Again, there is a real problem. But we should identify the nature of that problem and not pretend that every competitive barn in the U.S. is routinely acing their horses and somehow getting out of it by avoiding testers. If that was true, you wouldn’t have prominent trainers asking for USEF to make it legal.
[QUOTE=findeight;8658186]
I’ve had that same thought DMK. If they don’t get their way, will we see a new National H/J organization running their own club? Possibly with support from mega show managers some BNTs are very close with? Have non USEF days or entire shows within the mega circuits? Or drop USEF approval and just keep running on their own, after all a huge number of the classes that support these circuits are not nationally rated anyway or rated C.[/QUOTE]
You mean, go back to the days of the separate AHSA and USET?
Or work towards some alternate body, not unlike it appears GCT and FEI are headed towards…
Hi there, LONG time lurker, first time poster.
I worked for a BNT a few years ago - and after leaving this “dream job”, refuse to show H/J ever again and rarely ride. We traveled the A’s and had clients at home and I was “required” to medicate nearly every horse for some reason or another - and not for medical conditions. I did it at the time because I felt like I HAD to (clearly I didn’t have to, but it seemed that way at the time), and I was sick to my stomach a lot.
This is completely against my value system and after less than a year, I left. But I saw and did lots of things I never wish to see again or do again - not only at this barn but in the barns of others, some who were heroes of mine. So as it’s been said before, I’m sure not all of them are doing it, but enough of them that this experience of a lifetime destroyed my faith in the horse industry and that we’re doing the right, humane thing for the good of the horse.
I don’t profess to know the solution, but will say that a little piece of me died that year…
Unfortunately… I know too many young and hopeful professionals like falkortheluckdragon who have walked away from the sport rather than actively participate - or stay and tacitly approve by their presence - what is going on in many of the biggest well known barns in the country as well as many other barns.
And each and every one of these individuals lost a piece of themselves in the process and the industry lost honest hard working individuals who would have been the next generation of horsemen.
Not sure of the solution either, but perhaps a start would be to create a list of BNT and BNO who pledge publicly to clean sports. In any even, it would be interesting to see who signed up.
It is a deep, ingrained, well-shrouded issue.
But at the same time, if USEF actually cared, penalties for owners and a heartfelt PR campaign could go a looooong way towards fixing it.
“Clean Sport” posters in all show offices, so mommy-dearest is forced to see them. And clean sport ads in their fancy magazine.
“Do you know what’s in your horse’s bloodstream?”
Along with the list of penalties YOU will face, as owner, if a test comes back positive.
“Would your horse pass a sobriety test?”
The implication that your DD may be on an incapacitated horse.
“Not all meds are created equal.”
Inviting owners to inquire what exactly is in that ever-present line-item.
And so on. Right up there with D.A.R.E. and M.A.D.D. Over-the-top but thought provoking.
Of course there will be some unintended casualties. The absentee amateur owner that has shipped their horse off to sell, for instance. But when people are openly advocating drugs in one of our biggest national publications, we may have to fling the pendulum in the other direction to get things back on track.
No mass upheaval. No major (and likely impossible) changes to the judging. Just awareness. Good, old-fashioned, common-sense awareness.
And rules with teeth.
[QUOTE=juststartingout;8658735]
Unfortunately… I know too many young and hopeful professionals like falkortheluckdragon who have walked away from the sport rather than actively participate - or stay and tacitly approve by their presence - what is going on in many of the biggest well known barns in the country as well as many other barns.
And each and every one of these individuals lost a piece of themselves in the process and the industry lost honest hard working individuals who would have been the next generation of horsemen.
Not sure of the solution either, but perhaps a start would be to create a list of BNT and BNO who pledge publicly to clean sports. In any even, it would be interesting to see who signed up.[/QUOTE]
A lesson to be learned from cycling is that these clean sport pledges among organizations means pretty much nothing. This was tried even by several prominent former dopers, and turns out some of them are still dopers or supporters of anything but clean sport in reality.
[QUOTE=dags;8659240]
It is a deep, ingrained, well-shrouded issue.
But at the same time, if USEF actually cared, penalties for owners and a heartfelt PR campaign could go a looooong way towards fixing it.
“Clean Sport” posters in all show offices, so mommy-dearest is forced to see them. And clean sport ads in their fancy magazine.
“Do you know what’s in your horse’s bloodstream?”
Along with the list of penalties YOU will face, as owner, if a test comes back positive.
“Would your horse pass a sobriety test?”
The implication that your DD may be on an incapacitated horse.
“Not all meds are created equal.”
Inviting owners to inquire what exactly is in that ever-present line-item.
And so on. Right up there with D.A.R.E. and M.A.D.D. Over-the-top but thought provoking.
Of course there will be some unintended casualties. The absentee amateur owner that has shipped their horse off to sell, for instance. But when people are openly advocating drugs in one of our biggest national publications, we may have to fling the pendulum in the other direction to get things back on track.
No mass upheaval. No major (and likely impossible) changes to the judging. Just awareness. Good, old-fashioned, common-sense awareness.
And rules with teeth.[/QUOTE]
I’ll draft a full color public service ad… COTH want to run it for free?
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8658598]
You mean, go back to the days of the separate AHSA and USET?[/QUOTE]
No, had in mind they might go for something independent just for shows within the US. Look FEI is meaningless for most anyway, so is International competition for all but the very, very, very few. It doesn’t help breeders, exhibitors or show managers, some of whom are dropping any FEI classes due to the extra expense they create to attract limited entries in many areas outside of the massive circuits.
Back maybe 15 years ago when the AHSA, The Fed, USEF was going through an identity crises, before the creation of the USHJA, there were some trying to form something similar to USHJA, cannot remember the names but they were familiar. It didn’t survive! eclipsed by USHJA. I’m sure somebody here will remember, it was discussed at the time. Heatedly IIRC.
Was thinking something more along those lines but not affiliated with USEF. People were unhappy then, they are unhappy now and over more then drugs. Can’t discount the possibility of something independent starting up. Doubt it would be successful but you never know.
Just thinking out loud here, not advocating one way or the other.
[QUOTE=IPEsq;8659382]
A lesson to be learned from cycling is that these clean sport pledges among organizations means pretty much nothing. This was tried even by several prominent former dopers, and turns out some of them are still dopers or supporters of anything but clean sport in reality.[/QUOTE]
Excellent point – wasn’t suggesting this come from the organization…
[QUOTE=juststartingout;8658735]
Not sure of the solution either, but perhaps a start would be to create a list of BNT and BNO who pledge publicly to clean sports. [/QUOTE]
^^^ This
[QUOTE=DMK;8658612]
Or work towards some alternate body, not unlike it appears GCT and FEI are headed towards…[/QUOTE]
That’s more about sponsorship $$$$ then anything though. The Global Champions League runs during Global Tour shows which are FEI 5* rated, and runs under the same rules with FEI officials and course designers. Well the same FEI official and course designer each time since they are suspending any official who works with the League. So the FEI is saying it’s about horse welfare when it is clearly not. The only difference is the format of the class
So - after a month or so of COTH forums on Medication , how many of those who have posted/read will actually walk away if nothing is done? Will you actually walk into a show office and make you wishes known to show management. ? Will there ever be a change to the judging or is this circus going to continue. Will the big Derbies themselves test all entries? Is there ever going to be an answer?There is an old saying “talk is cheap”.
Back maybe 15 years ago when the AHSA, The Fed, USEF was going through an identity crises, before the creation of the USHJA, there were some trying to form something similar to USHJA, cannot remember the names but they were familiar. It didn’t survive! eclipsed by USHJA. I’m sure somebody here will remember, it was discussed at the time. Heatedly IIRC.
Findeight, I believe that Gary Baker was one of the principals behind this at the time.
[QUOTE=SlamDunk;8659521]
That’s more about sponsorship $$$$ then anything though. The Global Champions League runs during Global Tour shows which are FEI 5* rated, and runs under the same rules with FEI officials and course designers. Well the same FEI official and course designer each time since they are suspending any official who works with the League. So the FEI is saying it’s about horse welfare when it is clearly not. The only difference is the format of the class[/QUOTE]
Understood, but I think that is all window dressing for the real issue.
GCT is rapidly becoming powerful and prestigious enough to walk away from the FEI if they so choose and the FEI knows this. These events stand alone very succesfully and they are not qualifiers for olympics, world cups, nation’s cups or WEG, or if they are, the do not need that designation to be successful (I think the new team format they have was just the latest salvo fired over the FEI bow). So really, what advantage does the FEI bring to GCT? The only thing the FEI can claim as a benefit IS the horse’s welfare. Just because their real motive$ are financial doesn’t mean they cannot claim otherwise.
To my mind that is exactly analogous to USHJA (or some to be named future entity) and USEF. Most of the classes that support shows are unrated, USEF provides no year end rewards to those competitors (only cost), and increasingly we are seeing more big money “rated” classes that are not under the purview of USEF.
In reality they are a LONG way away from the kind of financial brilliance you see from Jan and his organization, and while I don’t think they have a shot in hell (non-horse people like watching jumpers especially in Europe, the same can rarely be said for hunters in the US), that doesn’t mean they don’t think they can be like Jan too. And again, the only value ultimately USEF can offer this group of people is “the welfare of the horse”. Only unlike the FEI level events, they actually have people out there verbalizing the concept that there might be an alternative definition of “the welfare of the horse” that involves ace.
I don’t know if they have enough people who think that would be just fine and dandy (it sure would be fine and dandy for the economics of horse shows), but I almost wonder if those op eds were trial balloons.
[QUOTE=equisusan;8659390]
I’ll draft a full color public service ad… COTH want to run it for free?[/QUOTE]
COTH has already done its journalistic duty by publishing unbiased articles from both sides of the coin. It is not fair to ask them to take a financial hit, and possibly even alienate other customers, when the Federation won’t even stand up to the issue.
Additionally, the folks this PR campaign would target, naive parents and amateurs of the hobbyist ilk, are not really COTH’s demographic.
Third, a campaign sponsored by a bunch of keyboard jockeys isn’t going to get us anywhere.
Without the explicit support of the Federation it is not fair to ask professionals to stick their financial necks on the line and risk alienating a large portion of the industry’s movers and shakers. When standing up for what’s right leads to financial ruin the end result is null.
The buck must stop where the buck actually stops, and that is with the owners. When DD’s show season comes to a grinding halt because her $150,000 hunter tested positive, and Mommy Dearest pulls her money and possibly even sues offending trainer, you will see change happen.
You will also see brilliance return to the hunter ring on its own accord, and judging standards will change to accommodate it.
[QUOTE=dags;8659802]
COTH has already done its journalistic duty by publishing unbiased articles from both sides of the coin. It is not fair to ask them to take a financial hit, and possibly even alienate other customers, when the Federation won’t even stand up to the issue.
Additionally, the folks this PR campaign would target, naive parents and amateurs of the hobbyist ilk, are not really COTH’s demographic.
Third, a campaign sponsored by a bunch of keyboard jockeys isn’t going to get us anywhere.
Without the explicit support of the Federation it is not fair to ask professionals to stick their financial necks on the line and risk alienating a large portion of the industry’s movers and shakers. When standing up for what’s right leads to financial ruin the end result is null.
The buck must stop where the buck actually stops, and that is with the owners. When DD’s show season comes to a grinding halt because her $150,000 hunter tested positive, and Mommy Dearest pulls her money and possibly even sues offending trainer, you will see change happen.
You will also see brilliance return to the hunter ring on its own accord, and judging standards will change to accommodate it.[/QUOTE]
Well I disagree that COTH and other magazines shouldn’t run public service ads or that it wouldn’t reach a key demographic but I did ask for the free advertising a little tongue in cheek. I’ll start a social media campaign since I feel compelled to do something. You’ve convinced me with your adamant stance even though I agree with most of what you’ve said. I will definitely target owners and riders as I agree they are ultimately responsible.
PS Keyboard jockeys who are also participating amateur riders btw can certainly make change. Power of the people. Maybe not the revolution we need but I’ll take a start.
