I am not sure I agree with this. I believe M.A.D.D started as a grass roots campaign and this was in the days when social media was not nearly as prevalent as it is today.
I am, however, not sure WEF would be the correct venue to try to launch something like this. Perhaps at a more local level since that often serves as an entry point into the sport and then keep working up?
Maybe fund raising to get ads into more local and regional publications or websites.
[QUOTE=Dinah-do;8659762]
So - after a month or so of COTH forums on Medication , how many of those who have posted/read will actually walk away if nothing is done? Will you actually walk into a show office and make you wishes known to show management. ? Will there ever be a change to the judging or is this circus going to continue. Will the big Derbies themselves test all entries? Is there ever going to be an answer?There is an old saying “talk is cheap”.[/QUOTE]
I walked away a couple of years ago and don’t miss H/J land at all. I do still jump around at home once in a while for fun. And I had (still have) a horse that is a super nice, “no prep” type - he could (and did) regularly walk right off the trailer into the hunter and eq rings. Naturally quiet and a very good jumper, lots of fun to show.
In recent years I just could not find a H/J program I was comfortable with in terms of care and training; even if my horse wasn’t being stuck, I did not want to be around a team that thought that was OK. (To be perfectly clear, I did have a very good experience with my last barn in the northeast, but that place was the exception rather than the rule. Thanks, Kristen!)
When I show now, it is in another discipline entirely and when I bought a new young horse this year, I bought one that was bred for that discipline. I now really enjoy showing in an environment where most riders care for their own horses while showing, among other things. Is it perfect? Nope, but I have found it a better fit for my own ideas about horse keeping and competition.
[QUOTE=RockinHorse;8660040]
I am not sure I agree with this. I believe M.A.D.D started as a grass roots campaign and this was in the days when social media was not nearly as prevalent as it is today.
I am, however, not sure WEF would be the correct venue to try to launch something like this. Perhaps at a more local level since that often serves as an entry point into the sport and then keep working up?
Maybe fund raising to get ads into more local and regional publications or websites.[/QUOTE]
Truth, as I suppose it could force the Federation’s hand. I think what irks me is that it has fallen into the laps of this group at all. It should not be our responsibility. We should not be the ones to have to raise money and drum up exposure when the USEF, to whom we are already paying dues and whose job it is to govern horse welfare anyway, has access to thousands of horse show offices across the country and a magazine distribution in the 10s of thousands. Especially since the concept is not revolutionary nor particularly disruptive. It’s posters. And magazine ads. And so entirely within their power.
[QUOTE=juststartingout;8659467]
Excellent point – wasn’t suggesting this come from the organization…[/QUOTE]
By organizations I meant cycling teams, so the analogy would be to barns/trainers.
[QUOTE=findeight;8659446]
No, had in mind they might go for something independent just for shows within the US. Look FEI is meaningless for most anyway, so is International competition for all but the very, very, very few. It doesn’t help breeders, exhibitors or show managers, some of whom are dropping any FEI classes due to the extra expense they create to attract limited entries in many areas outside of the massive circuits.
Back maybe 15 years ago when the AHSA, The Fed, USEF was going through an identity crises, before the creation of the USHJA, there were some trying to form something similar to USHJA, cannot remember the names but they were familiar. It didn’t survive! eclipsed by USHJA. I’m sure somebody here will remember, it was discussed at the time. Heatedly IIRC.
Was thinking something more along those lines but not affiliated with USEF. People were unhappy then, they are unhappy now and over more then drugs. Can’t discount the possibility of something independent starting up. Doubt it would be successful but you never know.
Just thinking out loud here, not advocating one way or the other.[/QUOTE]
The AHSA was just for US competition. USET was the governing body for the international teams.
I would rather be an agitator from within the sport than leave the sport I love OP. I don’t personally participate in it in an unethical way so I don’t see any reason to “walk away”. I actually don’t think the judging standard is wrong… it’s the methods some people are using to get closer to perfect that is wrong. When I have time to create some social media education on this I’d love the supporters of change here to comment, give me ideas and repost.
The AHSA was just for US competition. USET was the governing body for the international teams.
I don’t think that is quite correct. AHSA was still the NF to deal with the FEI, still was responsible for making sure that all of the ts were crossed and the i’s were dotted, but it had delegated the actual performance aspects to the USET by contract. The USET was under their umbrella. The USET couldn’t send a team to international competitions without going through the AHSA. AHSA did all the drug testing and FEI rule enforcement.
I have not read the entire thread so I am sure I am going to repeat a lot of what has been said. What ever happened to the brilliant rounds? even strides but adding or leaving out depending on the horse? Fences that mimicked fox hunting? outdoor hunt courses? etc. The idea of riding a drugged horse is dangerous. I have left hunters behind even as a spectator they are dull. I love to watch eventing at all levels. Yes, it takes a lot of work, cross training for dressage and XC… How many of the Hunter/Eq jrs can ride a dressage test? Watching the GM horsemastership you can see some of the basics missing.
Even GM says learn to ride and not be a passenger… Horsemanship is going away. Most of these kids know nothing about caring for the horse or training the horse. Are these top JRs as good as they look?
I wish I had lived near an area that pony club was around when I was younger but I still have learned a lot being with my horses and dealing with their individual issues. Have I trained a horse to the top levels? No, but I can ground drive, long line and are learning the true method of connection to the hind end and how not to pound a horse so they are in so much pain that they are rendered useless by the time they are 12!,
My fear is when the old masters are gone we will be in serious trouble.
As long as the judges pin dull horses going around on auto pilot that is what people will strive for.
My horse is an almost 21 year old Trakehner that evented his entire life. He is not an easy ride but he is kind and as safe as a horse can be. Sure it would be a lot easier for me to ride him if he were drugged but what would we learn? Nothing… come on people stand up for the horses if nothing else…
JMHO…
[QUOTE=findeight;8657912]
FEI doesn’t give a rats hind end about Hunters, Eq or most of the US Jumper community, after the recent Endurance debacle that has been allowed to go on and on for years? I wouldn’t hold them up as the guardian of horse welfare and enforcement of standards outside their rated competitions or threat to USEF.
Vast majority of people who go to shows in this country don’t know who or what FEI is and never ride in an FEI rated competition since FEI has nothing to do with their disciplne and/or any shows they attend.[/QUOTE]
Your observations don’t change the fact that there cannot and will not ever be a written rule allowing the tranquilizing of any horse, for any discipline, in any rated show under the auspices of USEF, which includes the “big EQ” classes the Medal and the Maclay.
If hunter trainers want to secede from USEF so they can tranquilize horses for kids to ride, it would be quite a PR disaster and they couldn’t take the ASPCA Maclay and (obviously) the USEF medal classes with them.
I didn’t say there would or should be such a rule. Just that there are many levels of discontent with an organization that does little to nothing for the majority of its membership and has inadvertently created an environment where Prep is King and trainers feel if they can’t beat them, they need to join them or lose their business.
The Ace debate is almost a red herring to much deeper problems in the industry. They can’t even properly administer the exsisting drug rules and meaningful enforcement is a joke.
Cutters have legal amounts of ace allowed. Are they affiliated with USEF? Maybe not?
[QUOTE=Thoroughbred1201;8657207]
I have to agree. This hits close to home. I had a stunning horse in the 90s - three incredible gaits, and a jump that had to be seen to be believed. But one BNT in a clinic I rode in called him (correctly) a heartbreaker. He just didn’t have the brain for the 3’6. All the talent in the world, but he just didn’t think he could do it.
We tried him in the first years, and at the second show, my trainer just rode him out of the ring on a loose rein after he stopped out. She told me he just wasn’t going to be that horse. That same show, I had friends telling me to get another horse so I could show the AOs, which had been the goal.
My response, was to stop showing. I loved this horse, quirky as he was, and he continued to teach me a lot. And I enjoyed him until the day he died. I’ve always been grateful to my trainer who knew that he just didn’t have the brain for the job, although he sure had all the other pieces. And she didn’t try to make a square peg fit a round hole.[/QUOTE]
You’re my new COTH hero. I honestly don’t know a lot of other people who have shown who just decide to go with “keep the horse, forget the showing” when it turns out to not be the horse’s thing.
[QUOTE=Dinah-do;8663249]
Cutters have legal amounts of ace allowed. Are they affiliated with USEF? Maybe not?[/QUOTE]
No. Cutting is not affiliated with USEF. Cutting is an open (and sometimes AQHA breed) event. Not an USEF or FEI sport. It can be quite confusing as cutters do earn much more prize money than some of the disciplines under USEF…
Reining horses that are now (when not a local competition etc…) under the auspices of USEF and the FEI are not allowed any anything that any other horses who compete under USEF rules are allowed.
My point is, that the uttering of the thought by a JUDGE (and not the first one) IN PUBLIC, IN PRINT, IN THE CHRONICLE (well done Chronicle for printing it by the way) that the aceing of hunters for kids to ride in EQ should even be considered is absolutely stunning to me. :no:
LucasB, what are you doing? fg
She’s doing dressage now. Which makes her tougher than me 
I would be horrified to find my child had ridden a drugged horse in practice let alone competition. Jeebus, that horse needs every bit of his wits about him should she make a mistake, which ALL riders do at every level. Had he been drugged at Gulfport she would be flat out DEAD no exaggerating. She got just a tiny bad distance to a BIG oxer in the schooling ring and instinctively sat back and tried to add. Horse saw the flyer (correctly) and the result was that he got a front foot between the top rails when she pulled. I watched from the side of the ring and all I could see was the rotational fall about to end my child’s life. I’m not kidding, trying to be more extreme, etc. Fortunately horse has a LOT of scope and managed to gallop away and regain his balance. Had he swerved, stopped, or not been able to regain his balance because his head was fuzzy with “just a little bit of Ace” there is no doubt in my mind my child would have landed directly under 1300lbs of horse. As it was, when he got to the end of the schooling ring and had to turn or jump out of the ring she finally came off and did a full flying sumersault. It was awful, and the next day when another rider came off and landed face up in front of the same type of fence and wound up with a broken jaw in 2 places and a broken collar bone I was the one who caught her horse and handed it off to the trainer. Then promptly went to my car and threw up behind it. DD went right back in the ring after her fall and was 2nd in the WIHS classic but it was insanely hard to let her climb back on. NO DRUGS. NEVER. This partnership is too important and LIVES are literally at stake. How can any judge or trainer lose sight of that fact? More importantly, you are dealing in the lives of CHILDREN when you send a drugged EQ horse or junior hunter into the ring. I guess it feels a bit ranty, this post, but until a BNT has a kid die under a horse who’s necropsy turns out to show it was drugged (God forbid! Not wishing it on anyone!) this will not get enough real momentum for people to just accept they must learn to ride, first and foremost.
[QUOTE=alittlegray;8665507]
I would be horrified to find my child had ridden a drugged horse in practice let alone competition. Jeebus, that horse needs every bit of his wits about him should she make a mistake, which ALL riders do at every level. Had he been drugged at Gulfport she would be flat out DEAD no exaggerating. She got just a tiny bad distance to a BIG oxer in the schooling ring and instinctively sat back and tried to add. Horse saw the flyer (correctly) and the result was that he got a front foot between the top rails when she pulled. I watched from the side of the ring and all I could see was the rotational fall about to end my child’s life. I’m not kidding, trying to be more extreme, etc. Fortunately horse has a LOT of scope and managed to gallop away and regain his balance. Had he swerved, stopped, or not been able to regain his balance because his head was fuzzy with “just a little bit of Ace” there is no doubt in my mind my child would have landed directly under 1300lbs of horse. As it was, when he got to the end of the schooling ring and had to turn or jump out of the ring she finally came off and did a full flying sumersault. It was awful, and the next day when another rider came off and landed face up in front of the same type of fence and wound up with a broken jaw in 2 places and a broken collar bone I was the one who caught her horse and handed it off to the trainer. Then promptly went to my car and threw up behind it. DD went right back in the ring after her fall and was 2nd in the WIHS classic but it was insanely hard to let her climb back on. NO DRUGS. NEVER. This partnership is too important and LIVES are literally at stake. How can any judge or trainer lose sight of that fact? More importantly, you are dealing in the lives of CHILDREN when you send a drugged EQ horse or junior hunter into the ring. I guess it feels a bit ranty, this post, but until a BNT has a kid die under a horse who’s necropsy turns out to show it was drugged (God forbid! Not wishing it on anyone!) this will not get enough real momentum for people to just accept they must learn to ride, first and foremost.[/QUOTE]
This http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/usef-opens-investigation-into-death-of-scott-stewarts-horse.aspx occured in 2015. Luckily, the child did not die and I believe was uninjured.
Unless the rules have changed (I’ll keep looking) there is no rule that a necropsy must be done and apparently the toxicology results are not in the purview of any parent not immediately concerned with the incident in some way, as in owning the horse.
This horse may have died of natural causes. My point is that there is no requirement for transparency so parents are left to guess. In this case the trainer and/or owner refused to have a necropsy performed.
[QUOTE=skydy;8665766]
This http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/news/usef-opens-investigation-into-death-of-scott-stewarts-horse.aspx occured in 2015. Luckily, the child did not die and I believe was uninjured.
Unless the rules have changed (I’ll keep looking) there is no rule that a necropsy must be done and apparently the toxicology results are not in the purview of any parent not immediately concerned with the incident in some way, as in owning the horse.
This horse may have died of natural causes. My point is that there is no requirement for transparency so parents are left to guess.[/QUOTE]
My recollection of things at the time this horse died was that the rules said no necropsy if the cause of death was clear (or something to that effect), and that because this horse clearly broke his neck, then there was no need to necropsy. It seems amazing to me that a necropsy is not required for any horse that dies at a show. And yes, the junior was not physically hurt in that case.
http://www.usefnetwork.com/news/10277/2013/7/22/change_to_rule_gr_843_mandatory_rep.aspx
This rule only applies to horses that drop dead, so to speak, as in the Mandarino pony case, and not to horses who fall while in the ring. USEF did not pass the mandatory necropsy rule.
So, if your child is riding a BNT’s horse and is killed jumping (a crash in the ring) as opposed to the horse dropping dead when walking from the ring, your options are quite limited at this point. Necropsy not required. Blood tests are, apparently? However it seems the results are not being shared with the public.
https://www.usef.org/_IFrames/rulebook/AdministrativePenaltyRulings.aspx
USEF is hardly throwing the book at anyone for medication violations and it does take a year or so to for the public be able see if any prohibited medication was in the system of a horse that died at a USEF show.
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