Equitation horses and drugs

[candico]

Maybe this deserves a separate thread, but what do you all think of drugging lesson horses. It is becoming more the norm around here that horses are being constantly drugged for lessons and some instructors are carrying pre-filled syringes so they can stick the horse in the middle of a lesson if it starts getting naughty. Dex and ace seem to be most popular. And not much of a leap to think if they are drugging for lessons they probably are drugging at shows.

Seems nuts to me, but it is easier for me to name the trainers that don’t believe in prolific drug use vs those that seem to think drugs are a normal part of riding protocol. And who is supplying them with such amounts that they can be using them daily on such a large number of school horses?

[BLBSTBLS]

Candico, I agree that is nuts and dangerous.

What are the students learning from riding a drugged horse?? They certainly are not learning to ride – they are learning how to sit on a saddle on top of a horse.---- Maybe this is one of the reason why the horses have to be drugged to perform at a show, if the riders are not taught how to ride an undrugged horse at home.

With race horses, whether you are at your own private training farm, a training facility, or the race track. The racing stewards or official may come to your farm and conduct a search at random. That includes vehicles, cabinets, refrigerator, and drug testing horses. Maybe the USEF should look into this.

Back to the original thread… I agree with Beehoney - Some amendments need to be made. The judging you see today in the hunter rings, totally contradicts all the Show hunter, and hunter training books available to read. I have read many of them and they all state that a hunter should resemble a horse from the hunt field. With a consistent ground covering stride alert and responsive. With a nice big round jump. The best jumping horse should pin over the best moving horse… those are just a few of the sentences I have read in many books about riding, training and showing hunters… I feel that hunters have gotten too far away from tradition. It is truly sad.

[findeight]

Speaking about writing extreme slowing of gaits and creating artificial way of going into the judging standards, AQHA has tried to do that for…oh…trying to think back here, 25 years since the low poll issue first appeared in the rules? BNT breeders and trainers don’t pay any attention, even spread to their Reining division.

[supernatural]

Melatonin

Melatonin seems to be the “new thing”. Lots of it like 30 plus pills. I guess USEF does not have a test for it. I’ve witnessed several horses fall down, tear down whole jumps, etc., like they were in coma. One groom said “guess we gave too much melatonin”.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=findeight;8670850]
Speaking about writing extreme slowing of gaits and creating artificial way of going into the judging standards, AQHA has tried to do that for…oh…trying to think back here, 25 years since the low poll issue first appeared in the rules? BNT breeders and trainers don’t pay any attention, even spread to their Reining division.[/QUOTE]

This is a perfect example of why changing judging standards isn’t a magic bullet

[rennyben]

Reading this makes me thankful for my trainer. When talking with her about expectations for our first BIG show - she said, “I’ll do the warm up on him to give him confidence. He should be fine. But, if he’s too wild for you, we’ll just scratch and just let him get used to the atmosphere this year so he’ll be ready next year.”

Imagine that. An A show trainer suggesting good sound horsemanship instead of drugs. The trainers are out there.

[touchstone]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8669177]
Ivy, I think everyone is in fact awake. However, instituting change seems to be really tough. Read this thread–a lot of people moan and complain about drugging, but then buy into the culture that quiet is better and defend the current judging standards. I don’t understand this. Why on earth does an unnaturally quiet look have to be considered better? Why on earth can’t judges reward alert or keen horses that behave and jump well? Why does a hunter have to look like a horse that would fall on it’s face if it were asked to gallop down a hill? Why can’t an equitation rider be rewarded for riding a horse that appears to take some skill and tact to ride? There’s simply NO logical reason that this ridiculous level of quietness needs to be so prized by us or our judges. [/QUOTE]

I’d be interested in some videos of performances of horses that you view as winners under a better judging standard that you believe were penalized at major shows under the current one for being overly keen. Similarly, I’d be interested in seeing videos of performances by equitation finals winners whose horses look like it “would fall on its face” if asked to travel downhill.

I honestly struggle to picture what you’re talking about, at least at the very top levels of our sport. I think seeing some examples might help me understand what you think a better judging standard would reward and penalize differently.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8670970]

@findeight;8670850

Speaking about writing extreme slowing of gaits and creating artificial way of going into the judging standards, AQHA has tried to do that for…oh…trying to think back here, 25 years since the low poll issue first appeared in the rules? BNT breeders and trainers don’t pay any attention, even spread to their Reining division.

This is a perfect example of why changing judging standards isn’t a magic bullet[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure any thinks it’s a magic bullet…but it is part of the very complex equation. Just changing the rules (or definitions) isn’t good enough. The judging needs to be re-enforce that…or you end up with an AQHA situation.

Want to make real change? Stop pinning people that don’t measure up. If that means the whole class doesn’t get pinned, so be it.

We know that won’t happen because what WILL happen is that the judge never works again.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=BLBSTBLS;8670816]
The judging you see today in the hunter rings, totally contradicts all the Show hunter, and hunter training books available to read. I have read many of them and they all state that a hunter should resemble a horse from the hunt field. With a consistent ground covering stride alert and responsive. With a nice big round jump. The best jumping horse should pin over the best moving horse… those are just a few of the sentences I have read in many books about riding, training and showing hunters… I feel that hunters have gotten too far away from tradition. It is truly sad.[/QUOTE]

Show hunters have been very far from field hunters for decades. Probably since the demise of the outside course. I have very nice field hunters – two of them that hunt first flight. Neither would be suitable for today’s show ring.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8671150]
I’m not sure any thinks it’s a magic bullet…but it is part of the very complex equation. Just changing the rules (or definitions) isn’t good enough. The judging needs to be re-enforce that…or you end up with an AQHA situation.

Want to make real change? Stop pinning people that don’t measure up. If that means the whole class doesn’t get pinned, so be it.

We know that won’t happen because what WILL happen is that the judge never works again.[/QUOTE]

We’re going to have to agree to disagree because I think the real solution hinges on rules with teeth that are actively enforced. Not judging.

[BLBSTBLS]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8671160]
Show hunters have been very far from field hunters for decades. Probably since the demise of the outside course. I have very nice field hunters – two of them that hunt first flight. Neither would be suitable for today’s show ring.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point, the show hunters today are a far cry from anything I would want to take out in the field. Yet, every top horseman that has written a single book, and I don’t just mean old books, mentions and refers to how the horse should resemble a suitable mount for the field.

[BeeHoney]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8671176]
We’re going to have to agree to disagree because I think the real solution hinges on rules with teeth that are actively enforced. Not judging.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that “rules with teeth” is the total answer. First of all, most of the drugging going on falls in the categories of 1) overuse of “legal” medications or 2) the use/overuse of substances that don’t test. Stiffer penalties would also not address the horse welfare concerns related to other questionable or downright inhumane methods of quieting (tiring out) horses.

Secondly, stiff financial penalties for rule infractions is much more of a hardship on normal people, and still not very much of a hardship at all on the very wealthy. Additionally, the very wealthy seem to have plenty of lawyers at their disposal to fight the USEF and escape punishment, but the less wealthy would be left paying the fines. So stiffer financial penalties would not be much of a deterrent for a large proportion of horse show competitors.

Lastly, enforcement can be very expensive. When rule breakers start a lawsuit over their infraction, that creates a situation where the USEF has to spend a LOT of money on enforcement. I’m not sure where I stand on this one–I want enforcement, but it’s also disturbing to see USEF pouring money into these cases.

Touchstone, I agree you have a point about how things are different at different levels of the hunters. I don’t really think I need to post videos (and honestly I’d be uncomfortable singling someone out), but there are plenty of videos out there of the hunters in the 1960s and the 1970s, then compare that to videos of winning trips at current competitions, particularly in the amateur divisions. My question to you is–why do you consider slowness and quietness such an important quality? Do you feel that slowness and quietness are an intrinsic part of good manners? Personally I don’t think that is the case, and that may be where we (respectfully) disagree.

I’ll be honest, I’m not advocating that we go back to what the hunters used to be like–that’s just not going to happen. But if a keen, happy horse with good manners puts in a good trip, they shouldn’t be punished for having a forward pace. And if a horse goes around the ring with spurs dug into its sides, yes, it should be penalized.

[vxf111]

We’ve gone around and around on this topic on COTH and NOTHING CHANGES. I’m beyond wanting to discuss it because it seems pointless

[touchstone]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8671392]
Touchstone, I agree you have a point about how things are different at different levels of the hunters. I don’t really think I need to post videos (and honestly I’d be uncomfortable singling someone out), but there are plenty of videos out there of the hunters in the 1960s and the 1970s, then compare that to videos of winning trips at current competitions, particularly in the amateur divisions. My question to you is–why do you consider slowness and quietness such an important quality? Do you feel that slowness and quietness are an intrinsic part of good manners? Personally I don’t think that is the case, and that may be where we (respectfully) disagree. [/QUOTE]

I think it’s totally possible that we should respectfully disagree. But I was really serious with my question–it was not intended as a trap.

This thread started out as one about equitation horses. I used to show in the equitation and I follow the division somewhat closely, so I feel that I have some expertise on this. What is valued in that division is not quietness in the sense of slowness, but total obedience and invisible adjustment. The questions asked by the division at the finals and biggest shows are extremely technical, and the jumps are often very spooky. You need a horse with the kind of quietness that makes him very focused on the rider.

Just as an example, and not to single her out for criticism, just take a look at the winning round from last year’s Maclay finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhDBj_gA1I8 and consider the complexity of the course and the variety of the questions asked and whether you think a horse that was not “quiet” in the sense of calm and obedient could have meaningfully competed.

I said this in an earlier post, but a horse and rider combination who flawlessly answer the questions of one of those courses, with invisible aids, even pace, a clear track and great jumping efforts should win. The very best equitation teams can do this with an excellent rider and great training and no drugs. In my opinion, they should still be our winners.

The challenge is in identifying and punishing the people who are faking similar results using inhumane methods.

[anon510129]

[QUOTE=rennyben;8670971]
Reading this makes me thankful for my trainer. When talking with her about expectations for our first BIG show - she said, “I’ll do the warm up on him to give him confidence. He should be fine. But, if he’s too wild for you, we’ll just scratch and just let him get used to the atmosphere this year so he’ll be ready next year.”

Imagine that. An A show trainer suggesting good sound horsemanship instead of drugs. The trainers are out there.[/QUOTE]

This sounds just like my old boss/trainer (who is a BNT) and I admired her greatly for that.

[Bogie]

Look how much the Maclay rounds have changed!

1982: https://youtu.be/8VvNxHMT5fI

[findeight]

Maclay courses have changed, more technicality most years. Even since I started following them maybe 25 years back. Just like SJ courses from the past, it’s difficult to compare the rides when the CDs questions are not the same.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Bogie;8671642]
Look how much the Maclay rounds have changed!

1982: https://youtu.be/8VvNxHMT5fI[/QUOTE]

Right? Back then you could be called back for testing with a few awkward distances on a horse that swaps before the jumps and doesn’t bend around the corners!

Seriously, can someone point out to me what is so much more awesome about those rounds that you all want to take a trip in the way-back machine and be able to show back in the 80s?

And by the way, I was showing ponies back then and there were PLENTY of show mornings where trainers were piling their horses and ponies right back on the van to get the hell out of dodge as soon as the drug testers pulled in the driveway.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8671695]
Right? Back then you could be called back for testing with a few awkward distances on a horse that swaps before the jumps and doesn’t bend around the corners!

Seriously, can someone point out to me what is so much more awesome about those rounds that you all want to take a trip in the way-back machine and be able to show back in the 80s?

And by the way, I was showing ponies back then and there were PLENTY of show mornings where trainers were piling their horses and ponies right back on the van to get the hell out of dodge as soon as the drug testers pulled in the driveway.[/QUOTE]

The answer to that is to give the show stewards the duty to designate horses for testing at every single show, even if the tests are never done. No one would know if the testers were going to appear or not, but the horses for testing would be selected. So the presence of a “drug tester” would be on the grounds at every single show. Either you show with the drug test designators present or you don’t show.

The threat of drug testing has to be credible to work, and right now it’s not very credible.

Notice that the Olympics has been doing tests on samples that were taken at Beijing in 2008 and uncovered something like 57 new cheaters as of last week. God knows what they will find from London.

[RugBug]

This his is much more analogous and the age of the WB was in full effect by 1994. http://youtu.be/fgr7wLrGzFk I have to say that I much prefer this over the over prepped look of 2015. These horse still had life to them.

[QUOTE=vxf111;8671176]
We’re going to have to agree to disagree because I think the real solution hinges on rules with teeth that are actively enforced. Not judging.[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to disagree with you, just asking that you don’t minimize my argument by saying people think it’s the magic bullet. It’s dismissive at best.

This is a complex issue and there is not a magic bullet that will fix it. There are many, many things that need to happen, one of which is drugging rules with teeth…and I think changing some definitions is also needed. Slower doesn’t have to be better. Opinionless is NOT something we should desire.