Equitation horses and drugs

But the rules don’t SAY solumbistic or opinionless. So changing the language won’t solve the problem if that’s all people can ride so all people will send into the ring. The standards can say whatever they want, judges can’t judge anything but what comes into the ring.

The AQHA rules said no more peanut rolling. And people kept sending the peanut rollers into the ring. Changing the standards can’t change the whole system.

I really don’t think the problem is the standards because they don’t call for what we’re all objecting to. Drugged is what we’re objecting to. The standards don’t say to preference the half asleep horse. They say reward quiet. Totally different. It’s riders/trainers going to extremes that is the problem. The standards aren’t really the problem.

I favor long suspension periods that follow the HORSE. And stepped up testing. I really think you have to hit cheaters where it hurts— and that’s the ability to keep point chasing.

I think rewarding quiet IS a problem, because the natural progression is go to ‘the quieter the better’ and then we end up where we are today. (Isn’t the rule about manners, not quietness?)

as as I noted previously, the written rule is probably fine, but how that is being interpreted is what is not fine. If one of our big names thinks “opinionless” is what is necessary, they are many more with that same thought

Changing definitions, harsher penalties, are ALL parts of the solution. Just one thing is not going to do anything…see AQHA for reference.

I agree with vxf111, changing the rules doesn’t help because horses will still be presented the same way. You need to increase the penalties.
Take a page from what AQHA has done or not done as the case may be.

[QUOTE=roseymare;8672126]
I agree with vxf111, changing the rules doesn’t help because horses will still be presented the same way. You need to increase the penalties.
Take a page from what AQHA has done or not done as the case may be.[/QUOTE]
The problem with the AQHA has to do with enforcement NOT the rule change. They don’t enforce the change, therefore nothing has actually changed.

In my line of work, if we find out a policy is not being followed, we review the policy to make sure there isn’t a problem with the policy or process and then we hold people accountable for following the written policy/process.

If if opinionless horses are being rewarded, there may not be anything wrong with the written rule, but there is something wrong with how the rule is being enforced…and there is room for change.

Someone mentioned that fines don’t matter to the wealthiest people in the sport, and that is certainly true. But what if punishments for drug infractions revolve around lengthy suspensions for everyone involved - trainers, owners, horses, AND riders rather than monetary fines? Wealthy owners or riders can’t just go buy another horse, and they can’t lease out their fancy horses to an unsuspended rider either. EVERYONE will be forced to become more educated and careful in their decisions. The transition period would be quite painful for a lot of people, but most of those are the very people who are ruining the hunters anyway. Those are the people who SHOULD be feeling a lot of pain.

Imagine what this type of rule would have meant when a certain high profile owner/high profile junior rider/high profile horse was tested and found positive at a high profile event a year or two ago. As soon as the sample was deemed a valid failure, no horse owned by that owner could show for a specific time frame. The rider could not ride for a specific time frame. The horse could not show for that time frame (even if sold - sorry current owner!). All of this would have a much bigger impact on the industry than any single monetary fine could ever have.

Lawsuits against USEF by those who have been suspended won’t stop, but I just don’t see how that CAN be stopped. Spoiled, wealthy, self-entitled assholes who truly believe the rules shouldn’t apply to them will always be spoiled, wealthy, self-entitled assholes who truly believe the rules shouldn’t apply to them. That doesn’t mean that the rest of us have to roll over and let them win without a fight.

Since Hunters and equitation are not FEI sports they do not have to follow the same rules BUT maybe they should anyway. They randomly drug test and awards get pulled at all levels.
Our trainers are European so no Hunters or equitation, If you are not ready to show you do not go and since my daughters dream is eventing she has a lot of work to do…
I am not sure what the answer is but I wish something could be done to protect the welfare of the horses…
I remember riding my pony on an outdoor hunt course. Having to dismount and jog over a 2 foot vertical and get back on! My pony could go out in the field with the hounds and stand at checks too… These riders spend too much time in the ring. Get out and enjoy the world your horse would like it too…

[QUOTE=BLBSTBLS;8671231]
Exactly my point, the show hunters today are a far cry from anything I would want to take out in the field. Yet, every top horseman that has written a single book, and I don’t just mean old books, mentions and refers to how the horse should resemble a suitable mount for the field.[/QUOTE]

They might say this, BUT how many current trainers have actual experience in the hunt field?

IMHO this is why focusing on the judging standards is misplaced…

  1. It puts at best indirect pressure on the wrongdoers. Judges are not drugging horses. Competitors and trainers are. Properly disincentivizing/discouraging drugging means focusing on the people who are actually drugging. Test more often, test more randomly, test more effectively (include the ability to inspect/test the contents of syringes), and hand down punishments that hurt. A small fine doesn’t hurt. Even a big fine doesn’t hurt some people. Suspending the trainer just means the assistant trainer starts signing the blank. What hurts is setting down the HORSE for a significant period of time. That hurts EVERYONE. It hurts the rider/owner (loss of the ability to show the horse/have the horse shown). It hurts the trainer (lost revenue from taking the horse to shows). Having the horse suspended such that it may lose the ability to qualify for shows/year end awards-- that hurts.

Judges can only judge what walks into the ring. You can change the rules all day long. You can do whatever you want to the standards. If all that walks in are drugged horses-- the judge can only pin a drugged horse. I don’t think there is a SINGLE reputable judge that LIKES half asleep, drugged horses. I don’t think a single one WANTS to pin that. It’s not that they don’t get it, need better guidance, or need to be educated-- they can only pin what they see. Go to any A-rated show, it’s a SEA of similarly acting, similarly prepped-seeming horses. The judge can’t tell which is naturally quiet and which has mag on board. So all the judge can do is compare the performances against one another.

You may argue that if judges start pinning “brighter” rides, everyone will stop drugging so their horses can be brighter too. I don’t think that will happen for numerous reasons. First, it’s cheaper and easier to send the child/ammy in with a worn down horse. Your good pro can handle brightness and keep it from turning into frisky/an error-- your average child/ammy can’t. If these riders could ride that horse slightly on the edge of brilliance, they’d already be doing it. The worn down horse is what a lot of people are used to showing. Changing the judging standards isn’t going to change that. Second, that requires time/training and everyone wants to go go go show show show NOW. That’s why shortcuts are so prevalent.

There’s also some pressure to make competitors, on the whole, happy. Judges whose pinnings don’t seem logical to competitors don’t get asked back. If the horse that bucks gets pinned over the quiet plod along, competitors are going to complain about the judge and that will be the end of that judge being invited. Change the standards all day long, if the competitors/trainers don’t understand/like it the judge will become very unpopular and not get hired. Whereas if the penalties flow from being caught drugging-- that has nothing to do with the judge. I actually think focusing on penalties for drugging is the only thing that is going to result in more “clean” horses going in FOR judges to reward.

  1. Hunters is subjective and in any subjective sports, the standards must necessarily be flexible/subjective. You can write and re-write the standards and educate judges out the wazoo-- at the end of the day it will always be a subjective gut call. Just like figure skating. Just like dressage. Sure, there are directives but one judge’s 6 on a movement is another judge’s 8 and neither is WRONG. No matter how specific the instructions-- someone’s got to decide “was that a a display of spirit or of disobedience.” Seen in a split second, no video replay, with all the other moments of the round having to be watched too. You’re always going to get 4 judges who says it was spirit, 4 who saw it as disobedience, 1 who missed it and was looking down, and 1 who is nuts :slight_smile: Such is the nature of subjective sports.

I LIKE hunters being subjective. I don’t think it SHOULD become objective. But the subjectivity is why this isn’t like a policy that says “mail the letter within 45 days of the employee’s termination.” Sure, maybe there’s some subjectivity (does mail include UPS and Fed Ex? Are contractors employees?") but there’s also a level of objectivity (45 days) that is absent in hunter judging. I don’t want to ride against an objective scoresheet. That’s completely antithetical to what hunters is. And as long as there is subjectivity, efforts to “write better guidance” and educate judges is never going to really solve a problem WITH A DIFFERENT ORIGIN. The problem is not that the judging is poor. It’s really not. Judges know what they see. The problem is that some people would rather find quiet at the end of a needle than with training/experience.

  1. Empirical evidence shows you it doesn’t work. The APHA is a primo example. People were training horses to peanut roll. Why? It’s easier to “go slow” when the horse is trained with tie downs and tired out than it is to train actual slow legged movement through proper training. Horses can go REALLY SLOW with their heads at a normal level-- it’s just that it requires time and skill. Competitors wanted a shortcut. Riders were not capable of really teaching or even riding a well trained, slow going horse with impulsion. So out came the tie downs and the bleeding and the drugging.

And the APHA said “this looks bad for the optics of the sport.” And so they changed the judging standards.

And the very next day and the day after and the day after that-- everyone kept on peanut rolling. I am out of that world now, but from the videos I have seen it has not changed things at ALL. And it’s not because the judges need to be educated. They are fully capable of understanding what it means to be “level with the poll.” There literally could not BE a clearer, more objective standard than THAT. And yet it hasn’t changed things. Why? Because you don’t fix a problem in Alaska with a solution in Rhode Island. If drugging is the problem, you go after the people who drug. Not the judging.

But this all all academic because…

  1. The USEF does not actually want to change
  2. Even if they did, they don’t care what peons like us think

We’re trees falling in the forest here with no one to listen. Just like all the prior similar threads.

The huge conflicts of interest are also important - that also will never change.

If we re-branded the discipline – maybe as “traditional hunters”?-- would anybody come? I have a little money available to experiment–

[QUOTE=ChristinaClarLuisa;8672951]
If we re-branded the discipline – maybe as “traditional hunters”?-- would anybody come? I have a little money available to experiment–[/QUOTE]

TB Hunters? Those divisions are filling well in Zone 3.

2bays, that’s encouraging! What is your take on the judging standards in these classes? More realistic?

following up on Yn’s posts:

How about this? a horse tests positive:

$10,000 fine for trainer, owner and rider (if not a minor). Let’s face it this is pocket change for many owners and trainers so,

Horse is banned from ALL competition for one year. Rider and trainer and owner are also banned from ALL competitions (even standing on the show grounds) for a year.

All of the above should be listed on line for the public to see. This way when a parent and/or rider moves to a new area etc… they can check to see who cheats (or at last who has been caught) and who doesn’t.

When parents and their kid are sidelined for a year with their $150,000 ++ horse bc the horse tested positive or worse, because some other kid’s equitation horse was caught so now the coach can’t be on the showgrounds… the culture will change. Many of the owners and riders have multiple horses so it will really hurt.

Apparently knowing that your coach drugs is not enough to make many owners find new trainers, maybe this will.

I don’t think blaming judges will really work to find a solution. When the majority of horses are no longer drugged (oh happy day), the judges will have a completely different base line from which they can pick a winner.

Now we can get into a different can of worms which is how divorced many of us are as riders and owners from our horses care and prep :slight_smile:

That’s fine but how do you handle partnerships, syndicates, horses listed under LLCs??? If Big Name Farms LLC or even Money Bag Corp. is listed as owner? How would you figure out who to go after? How about horses with recorded leases on file? Go after the owner?

I hear you findeight. Even as I read what I’d written I saw holes in the plan. I think there would be so many lawsuits it would be completely unmanageable.

Well, if I buy into The GP Group as an investment, I get a share of ownership but I don’t have to join anything for the horse to compete since The GP Group is the owner and has some type membership. All sorts of entities listed as owners these days instead of individuals.

Suspending the horse makes it unnecessary to unravel ownership…

Javacleo, the $10,000 fine would be pocket change to a lot of the owners and trainers, but it would be a crippling amount to the people that pay their entry fees by grooming or braiding. It would have a very disproportionate effect across the range of people competing at the shows. Making a fine for a broken rule $10,000 is pretty much saying that you don’t belong showing unless you have that kind of change laying around. As much as I’m against the over-medication and illegal drugging of show horses, the fact is that at least some small amount of positive tests are inadvertent. I have never had a positive test and don’t expect to. But, I also have layup horses in my barn and multiple employees and despite taking a lot of precautions, I know that mistakes can happen.

Having a penalty such as disallowing a horse from competition for a period of time–now that would affect people–owners, riders, trainers–fairly equally across the board.

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8675420]
Javacleo, the $10,000 fine would be pocket change to a lot of the owners and trainers, but it would be a crippling amount to the people that pay their entry fees by grooming or braiding. It would have a very disproportionate effect across the range of people competing at the shows. Making a fine for a broken rule $10,000 is pretty much saying that you don’t belong showing unless you have that kind of change laying around. As much as I’m against the over-medication and illegal drugging of show horses, the fact is that at least some small amount of positive tests are inadvertent. I have never had a positive test and don’t expect to. But, I also have layup horses in my barn and multiple employees and despite taking a lot of precautions, I know that mistakes can happen.

Having a penalty such as disallowing a horse from competition for a period of time–now that would affect people–owners, riders, trainers–fairly equally across the board.[/QUOTE]

Yup. I get a seriously huge fine for a repeat offender… But that kid who is braiding their way through shows? I agree that suspension is the way to go. And I think it’s important to differentiate between being over the allowed limit of something like bute vs stacked NSAIDS vs drugging a horse to quiet them.