Equitation horses and drugs

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=poniesinthenight;8643857]
All for a $1.50 ribbon, pathetic.[/QUOTE]

Well you know it’s not really about the $1.50 ribbon. It’s about selling the horse for mid to high six figures or more. For some it’s probably also the glory of having their photo taken at a fancy show with the fancy trophy for their fancy horse. I just keep encouraging people who want to do the hunters for its noble pursuit to continue to do it and enjoy it. The reward is in how your horse performs for you to the best of their ability.

[findeight]

I think COTH is practicing good Journalism and encouraging discussion which gets this issue out of the shadows. We want honest reporting and all viewpoints represented, this is what has to be done. Publications that avoid controversial topics and ignore the underbelly of any sport or activity are just cheerleaders or recruiting participants, not facing facts.

Far as poor Kip and why she, of all people, wrote this? Imagine she’s losing business to her fellow Pros and the increasing number of “Trainerettes” who don’t know any better filling the gaps left by Pros who do know better cutting back, going private or giving up altogether.

For those who think wherever they went to to avoid this issue, drugs or substances not in the best interest of the horse? Guess again…

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=equisusan;8643852]
Although I like and agree with most of what you said Fordtraktor, I must say it makes me sad when people say they voted against the hunters by leaving to go and do the jumpers or eventing or dressage. I guess I think that the people that do it the “right way” should stay in the hunters even if they don’t place as well as they think they should’ve. I understand a little why a professional would want to go into a division that they can place for their clients but I don’t understand why an amateur would do that if they enjoy doing the Hunter division. I started riding hunters 40 years ago and I still love the pursuit of the perfect trip. It’s never been the pursuit of first place for me. Sometimes you win with your perfect trip and sometimes you get out jumped. But you know sometimes you win with not a great trip because it is a comparative competition.[/QUOTE]

I will tell you why. I am a very competitive person and I like winning. I prefer a sport where if I do right by my horse I can win.

I wouldn’t bother showing if I didn’t enjoy winning at all. What is the point of that? I love spending the hours finding my horses, bringing them along, and turning them into WINNERS. If I just want to jump nice quiet rounds I can do that at home and save myself a few grand.

There is nothing wrong with liking to win. There is a lot wrong with doing it at the expense of your horse’s well being.

Plus, jumpers are fun. I like that I pretty much always get the ribbon I deserve.

[juststartingout]

Avoiding this issue is impossible.

However, publishing requires that advocating one position by a prominent owner or professional be balanced with an article/column by an equally prominent owner of professional with the other point of view.

One thing that bothers me in this discussion is the absence of top owners or top professionals speaking out against drugs and other damaging methods to “quiet” the horse. The absence of those articles speaks worlds about our sport and its current status

[GrayMare]

There are so many bad messages in this article.

That instead of abusing horses into submission we should drug them into submission. That horses should ideally be robotic in nature and children should have robotic horses to ride so that their highly important class placings are not ever messed up by something that is the “horse’s fault.” That “equitation” is the ability to ride an “opinionless” horse. Is this really what we want to teach our kids??

These ideas are complete perversions. The most beautiful aspect of horse sports for young people is SPECIFICALLY that horses are NOT robots. Young riders learn that every horse is different, and that riding involves communication and tact and feel.

It’s a core principle of horse sports that you are partnered with another sentient being–a being who at times can be sensitive, unpredictable or have thoughts of their own. Figuring out how to perform consistently with such a partner is exactly what you are supposed to be testing when you show. Figuring out how to succeed with a horse WITHOUT turning to drugs or abuse is exactly what real horsemanship is.

[ChristinaClarLuisa]

I am interested in the perspectives of those in journalism. As I understand it, journalism includes reporting on “news”, in an objective, factual way. Traditionally news outlets also offer a space for opinion pieces, representing both the position of the editors (an “editorial”) and possibly also pieces by guest writers (not the position of the editors.)

That I get. So my questions are in the grey zone.

(1) At what point does the prominence of guest opinion pieces by proponents of " X Policy" become so overwhelming that it is a de facto editorial position?

(2) At what point does an issue become so ethically important that the editors must take a clear stand, and stop striving after the appearance of “balance” in opinion pieces?

(3) Where is the “hard” reporting? IMHO, if a news outlet allows the principal discussion to be between opinions, they abdicate the fundamental journalistic responsibility of finding and reporting facts. And this trivializes the discussion…letting it devolve into “everybody is entitled to their opinion.”

And I must rush to say I can get an inkling of how hard this must be for COTH to navigate…they’re doing a good-faith effort.

[PNWjumper]

I’m with equisusan about the ribbons. Can we please stop saying that this is “all for a $1.50 ribbon”?

No, this is not for the ribbons.

This is for what’s behind the ribbons - bigger lease fees, sales prices, commissions, and acquisition of more students.

For every blue ribbon it’s the ability to add thousands or more to a purchase price. It’s being able to lease a horse for more. It’s trainers (and riders) climbing to the top of the pile and being able to get the wealthy students in their barn or the top horses to ride.

Nobody cares about the $1.50 ribbon.

i’m with everyone else here…I cringe at the implication of the article and the idea of everyone going in on Ace. And further, what happens if it becomes legalized? Will everyone show on it? Will the numbers stay the same but now the formerly illegally drugged horses are “legal?” Or will the lines in the sand simply shift once again and those trainers who were willing to cross that line before become the trainers who are looking for that “next level” drug to change things in their favor once again?

This is a dangerous cycle to start because the answer is NOT that once Ace is legal everyone will be happy as they ride around on their opinionless horses.

ETA: I don’t agree that people should altruistically keep plugging away at the hunters even if they don’t ever win. I’ve taken the same track as fordtraktor and far prefer the jumper ring where I usually place where I think I deserve to be based on the ride/day/horse.

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8644030]
I’m with equisusan about the ribbons. Can we please stop saying that this is “all for a $1.50 ribbon”?

No, this is not for the ribbons.

This is for what’s behind the ribbons - bigger lease fees, sales prices, commissions, and acquisition of more students.

For every blue ribbon it’s the ability to add thousands or more to a purchase price. It’s being able to lease a horse for more. It’s trainers (and riders) climbing to the top of the pile and being able to get the wealthy students in their barn or the top horses to ride.

Nobody cares about the $1.50 ribbon. …

Or will the lines in the sand simply shift once again and those trainers who were willing to cross that line before become the trainers who are looking for that “next level” drug to change things in their favor once again? …

ETA: I don’t agree that people should altruistically keep plugging away at the hunters even if they don’t ever win. I’ve taken the same track as fordtraktor and far prefer the jumper ring where I usually place where I think I deserve to be based on the ride/day/horse.[/QUOTE]

So much to agree with here. If ACE is legal its just the beginning of a slippery slope.

And while I understand the comments about moving to jumpers, the sentiment behind those of us urging people not to abandon hunters or eq is:

1. Leaving diminishes the number of voices demanding an end to the current climate. THere is strength in numbers
2. Not all of us find the jumpers fun - and selfishly - we should be able to have fun in hunters and eq competing with like minded people.

Finally – I said this earlier – but where are the BNT and BNO and BNR speaking out against these positions. The fact that there are none is beyond disappointing

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=PNWjumper;8644030]
ETA: I don’t agree that people should altruistically keep plugging away at the hunters even if they don’t ever win. I’ve taken the same track as fordtraktor and far prefer the jumper ring where I usually place where I think I deserve to be based on the ride/day/horse.[/QUOTE]

LOL I’m not being altruistic. I’ve done the jumpers and I simply prefer the challenge of the hunters. And honestly I feel like I get the ribbons I deserve based on the horse/day/trip. Much as there are children’s/adult jumpers out there that are Grand Prix horses there are hunters that are much fancier than mine.

If you say you do the jumpers because you or your horse prefer and enjoy the jumpers then I’m cool with that. To each their own! I’m just saying it doesn’t help the hunters that everybody stops competing in it and leaves it to the cheaters or that people assume that everybody that does the hunters is a cheater.

[equisusan]

Perfect juststartingout

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=GrayMare;8644012]
There are so many bad messages in this article.

That instead of abusing horses into submission we should drug them into submission. That horses should ideally be robotic in nature and children should have robotic horses to ride so that their highly important class placings are not ever messed up by something that is the “horse’s fault.” That “equitation” is the ability to ride an “opinionless” horse. Is this really what we want to teach our kids??

These ideas are complete perversions. The most beautiful aspect of horse sports for young people is SPECIFICALLY that horses are NOT robots. Young riders learn that every horse is different, and that riding involves communication and tact and feel.

It’s a core principle of horse sports that you are partnered with another sentient being–a being who at times can be sensitive, unpredictable or have thoughts of their own. Figuring out how to perform consistently with such a partner is exactly what you are supposed to be testing when you show. Figuring out how to succeed with a horse WITHOUT turning to drugs or abuse is exactly what real horsemanship is.[/QUOTE]

Thank you GrayMare for explaining exactly what I’m thinking.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=equisusan;8644062]
If you say you do the jumpers because you or your horse prefer and enjoy the jumpers then I’m cool with that. To each their own! I’m just saying it doesn’t help the hunters that everybody stops competing in it and leaves it to the cheaters or that people assume that everybody that does the hunters is a cheater.[/QUOTE]

Fair point, and I agree that people shouldn’t leave just for fear of cheaters.

And I didn’t mean to imply that I left for that reason. The real reason I initially left the hunter ring is because the jumper ring was ALWAYS the goal. As a kid we did the hunters for the height (there were no jumpers below 3’6") and the ease of the courses and then you “graduated” to the jumpers. On that program, my trainer was one of those who found diamonds in the rough for the big jumpers. So the minute I could get out of the “whose horse was nicer” (hint - it was never mine!) game, I was over to the objectivity of the jumper ring in a flash and never looked back.

Also, I really like big fences

[Sunflower]

[QUOTE=equisusan;8643870]
Well you know it’s not really about the $1.50 ribbon. It’s about selling the horse for mid to high six figures or more. For some it’s probably also the glory of having their photo taken at a fancy show with the fancy trophy for their fancy horse. I just keep encouraging people who want to do the hunters for its noble pursuit to continue to do it and enjoy it. The reward is in how your horse performs for you to the best of their ability.[/QUOTE]

It is and it isn’t about that ribbon. Who are the people paying the giant money for the horses that they want to have no opinion, no movement, no whatever? My impression is that it is ammys with money and juniors in families with money-- and they want the win more than they want to spend time to develop their own skills and that of the horse. They want the win-- and to show off the win via the ribbon, the trophy, the pretty picture with them beaming on the horse with a cool looking cooler that says they are a winner. These people have the disposable income to pay for a nice horse-- but that is not apparently enough for them-- god forbid that the horse needs to be worked or they need to spend time developing their own skill. Because doing that does not play well on instagram or snapchat or over cocktails in Biarritz. So-- yes, the professionals are stuck catering to these ribbon vampires, and all the dynamics that go with it.

But at the heart of the desire to drug a horse and make that a legal option for the hunters and the eq is the desire to show off a ribbon. Not skill. Not real horsemanship. Nothing of the like. Just a cheap ribbon.

[equisusan]

Fair enough PNWJumper. Sadly I am old enough that when I started there were no hunters that were lower than 3’6". You started in the juniors and the jumps were solid and lots of outside courses. Ha ha

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8644116]
It is and it isn’t about that ribbon. Who are the people paying the giant money for the horses that they want to have no opinion, no movement, no whatever? My impression is that it is ammys with money and juniors in families with money-- and they want the win more than they want to spend time to develop their own skills and that of the horse. They want the win-- and to show off the win via the ribbon, the trophy, the pretty picture with them beaming on the horse with a cool looking cooler that says they are a winner. These people have the disposable income to pay for a nice horse-- but that is not apparently enough for them-- god forbid that the horse needs to be worked or they need to spend time developing their own skill. Because doing that does not play well on instagram or snapchat or over cocktails in Biarritz. So-- yes, the professionals are stuck catering to these ribbon vampires, and all the dynamics that go with it.

But at the heart of the desire to drug a horse and make that a legal option for the hunters and the eq is the desire to show off a ribbon. Not skill. Not real horsemanship. Nothing of the like. Just a cheap ribbon.[/QUOTE]

The desire to pay to win is affecting the hunters, equitation and the jumpers. The ribbon is just a symbol of winning or potential increased value/money. All you have to do is look at who is buying the nicest international Grand Prix horses. It’s always been an elitist sport but money is out of control right now and not just in equestrian sports. You can drive yourself crazy trying to compete with people who have more money than you. Somebody always has more.

[vxf111]

I think I have said it before that if COTH wanted to do some actual investigative reporting on this topic I would APPLAUD that. But publishing op eds over and over again that say virtually the same thing acvomplishes very little. I feel as though that’s where things are right now. A bunch of people repeating the same thing.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=equisusan;8644118]
Fair enough PNWJumper. Sadly I am old enough that when I started there were no hunters that were lower than 3’6". You started in the juniors and the jumps were solid and lots of outside courses. Ha ha[/QUOTE]

Ha! I guess I was lucky enough to start when the dumbing down of the heights began. The lowest hunter class available at horseshows when I started was 3’3". But the 3’ classes were introduced a few years later. And we all know where it went from there!

[Mistysmom]

[QUOTE=juststartingout;8643987]
One thing that bothers me in this discussion is the absence of top owners or top professionals speaking out against drugs and other damaging methods to “quiet” the horse. The absence of those articles speaks worlds about our sport and its current status[/QUOTE]

Those who do not speak out about it are often involved in some way…

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=Mistysmom;8644405]
Those who do not speak out about it are often involved in some way…[/QUOTE]

Or afraid that speaking out will have too high a cost

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8643784]
People turn to drugs and tons of prep because these days, there is so much pressure to get results NOW. There is no place for time and patience. and who can blame them or the owners? Showing is so expensive. But it is terrible for the horses to put so much pressure on them so young, because what it takes to produce those kinds of rounds…the commentators are right that it is bad. Drugs aren’t the answer but it is a huge problem.

Our expectations need to change of what we want the horses to look like. Of what a show schedule should look like. Of what a horse should be doing when it is five, six, seven. So that one day 7 and green is not a death knell for your horse’s future, and 12 is not “old”, and 20 is not so amazingly old no one can contemplate how you are still jumping the horse.[/QUOTE]

And expectations for the kids, too.

The downside to an expensive animal isn’t just for the animal - who is now expected to be foot-perfect 100% of the time - but on the kid as well - because “obviously” if your 6-figure horse makes a mistake it was because the rider made a mistake. (And if it didn’t make a mistake it’s because the horse covered for the rider… rider often never gets credit for being good.)