Equitation horses and drugs

[juststartingout]

[QUOTE=poltroon;8644440]
And expectations for the kids, too.

The downside to an expensive animal isn’t just for the animal - who is now expected to be foot-perfect 100% of the time - but on the kid as well - because “obviously” if your 6-figure horse makes a mistake it was because the rider made a mistake. (And if it didn’t make a mistake it’s because the horse covered for the rider… rider often never gets credit for being good.)[/QUOTE]

IMHO riders do get credit – that how we have those BNR. IME its the riders who handle the difficult horses - get the job done but not perfectly because the horse has limitations or quirks - that do not get recognized. Not saying its easy to rider the “perfect” horse, but it is sure easier to get noticed getting it done on a perfect horse

[Mayaty02]

[QUOTE=GrayMare;8644012]
There are so many bad messages in this article.

That instead of abusing horses into submission we should drug them into submission. That horses should ideally be robotic in nature and children should have robotic horses to ride so that their highly important class placings are not ever messed up by something that is the “horse’s fault.” That “equitation” is the ability to ride an “opinionless” horse. Is this really what we want to teach our kids??

These ideas are complete perversions. The most beautiful aspect of horse sports for young people is SPECIFICALLY that horses are NOT robots. Young riders learn that every horse is different, and that riding involves communication and tact and feel.

It’s a core principle of horse sports that you are partnered with another sentient being–a being who at times can be sensitive, unpredictable or have thoughts of their own. Figuring out how to perform consistently with such a partner is exactly what you are supposed to be testing when you show. Figuring out how to succeed with a horse WITHOUT turning to drugs or abuse is exactly what real horsemanship is.[/QUOTE]

ditto this!

[kelsey97]

I’m blaming the judges, yep, you heard me. If riders on robots keep winning that is the standard by which we will aspire to achieve. What exactly is the reason for good equitation? I was taught that proper position helped to overcome issues with the dynamic sport that is riding, dynamic not static…

[Pennywell_Bay]

Trainers need to be part of the solution. Whether this one condones it or not, by not speaking up AGAINST it, becomes part of the problem. How about a scathing article against it and take a stand.

[RileysMom]

Aside from the implications of drugging horses on the aesthetic aspects of the sport, I personally prefer my horse to be neurologically intact so that when I make a mistake, his brain can chime in with an opinion (and perhaps save us both). Granted, an incredibly anxious horse will not make good decisions on its own but then again, drugging it likely won’t improve its cognitive ability.

Plus, every organism has slight differences in metabolic enzymes and dose X of ace for horse A can take the edge off whereas dose X for horse B has a much more potent effect. So establishing an acceptable dose doesn’t necessarily mean much across the board. Plus, blood levels of a drug don’t necessarily reflect the action of the drug in the brain. I guess some could argue that “we know ace is safe” for performance but if it’s been a banned substance thus far, that argument may not hold much water.

[snowrider]

There are also the legal aspects. I can’t imagine what would happen if people were drugging children’s or amateurs horses openly and those people sustained an injury. I’d love to see the swift arm of the law (or the civil courts) smacking the crap out of some people who are too dumb to understand that the horse world isn’t the real world. I’m thinking in particular of one nasty divorce I know of where the husband was not particularly willing to pay for the older teens horse dreams (which are Moms dreams in reality) and also wants 100% custody of the younger kids. If Mom paid a pro who put older kid on a drugged horse and anything happened, he’d get those kids I bet. And Mom is just the kind of idiot to do that.

*not that I want to see anyone fall off and get hurt but it happens. And insurance companies don’t play. You’d have to be 100% insane to be openly drugging rich children’s or amateur’s horses in this day and age.

[foursocks]

I was a junior in the 1980s and always had green hunters. I took them in the equitation ring to get miles for them and to show that they could do that ring- this was when most people had only one or two junior horses and did the eq. on one of them, or did the eq. on their jumper.

Anyway, I once took my newest young horse in a Mini Maclay and he spent the whole time being naughty. I grimly handled everything he did and got around- we had some lovely fences but there were shenanigans in between. I figured I wouldn’t even get a ribbon- we actually won! The judge said that I had shown my ability to competently deal with a misbehaving horse and still answer all of the questions asked by the course in style. I feel like that might have been the last time anything like that happened in the eq. ring!

I get the magazine and I was appalled by this piece when I read it. Obviously no one wants to be riding a green, rambunctious baby horse in a big equitation class as a rule- believe me, I didn’t enjoy it! But surely the spirit of equitation as a demonstration of rider skill when dealing with an unpredictable animal should be honored, not buried even more. It’s gross.

[DMK]

Sigh, the idea that someone (a good, ethical trainer by all accounts) thought this idea must be voiced (written, printed, published) makes my head hurt. It makes me want to say it makes my head hurt alot, because that is how bad this idea is.

How about two simple concepts for equitation, life and horsemanship instead?

1. Horses have not, are not and WILL NEVER BE “opinionless”. If that isn’t something you can deal with, might I suggest directing your child to a hobby like golfing. By themselves. or collecting rocks. By themselves.

2. LIFE IS NOT FAIR. The sooner we all adapt to that basic principle, the better off we all are, ready to face the rest of life as a functioning adult. You can be the best, you can ride the best and you know what? Shit happens. Deal. Sometimes it even (gasp) happens at a once in a lifetime event. Ask a 1,000 Olympians. Deal. You will be a better person for it.

And any trainer or parent that isn’t reinforcing these simple truths is doing no service to their client/child.

Idiots. Man my sig line is going to get a serious work out today, I can just tell.

[bjd2013]

It’s like a top judge, rider, and trainer said the other day on FB. Judging isn’t going to change, a quiet horse is more appealing and fun to watch/ride vs. a fresh one. Judging standards won’t change, because we can’t assume every quiet deadhead horse is drugged, so it would be unfair to reward one that is fresh and stepping off its lead or bucking in the corner over one who isn’t. I’m the one person on the fence who could go both ways, these articles don’t disgust me. I honestly think it’s great that people can voice their opinions and create conversation like this, we need it.

[OTTB2]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8645050]
It’s like a top judge, rider, and trainer said the other day on FB. Judging isn’t going to change, a quiet horse is more appealing and fun to watch/ride vs. a fresh one. Judging standards won’t change, because we can’t assume every quiet deadhead horse is drugged, so it would be unfair to reward one that is fresh and stepping off its lead or bucking in the corner over one who isn’t. I’m the one person on the fence who could go both ways, these articles don’t disgust me. I honestly think it’s great that people can voice their opinions and create conversation like this, we need it.[/QUOTE]

Its not like judging would need to make a full 360 just a little slap to reality?

[GrayMare]

A few slaps to reality would be a great place to start.

Two big time trainers have just come out and told us that things are so inhumane and out of control in the hunter and equitation divisions that it would be better to just make a formal plan to drug all the horses.

But penalizing slow or robotic horses and favoring horses with a little more snap would be a great place to start. This seems to be a much better option than turning a blind eye to what is going on now, or changing the system to allow drugs (which is not realistically a possible option).

[OTTB2]

[QUOTE=GrayMare;8645627]
A few slaps to reality would be a great place to start.

Two big time trainers have just come out and told us that things are so inhumane and out of control in the hunter and equitation divisions that it would be better to just make a formal plan to drug all the horses.

But penalizing slow or robotic horses and favoring horses with a little more snap would be a great place to start. This seems to be a much better option than turning a blind eye to what is going on now, or changing the system to allow drugs (which is not realistically a possible option).[/QUOTE]

I get that a lot of times the customers of big time trainers follow the trainers decisions and never question them but, the owners need to have a pair big enough to say no, you wont drug my horse, or do horrible XYZ thing. Until the owners and the future riders the kids realize what is going on and what needs to change en masse nothing will happen. The issue with this is people want to win, thats how you can see the difference between who really wants to be a great rider. Person A comes out of the ring after a low placing and gets off the horse and storms off and is sad about it. Person B goes I just learned a heck of a lot from that and next time I will be better. If you only focus on winning you loose sight of being a true horse person.

[BostonHJ]

[QUOTE=bjd2013;8645050]
It’s like a top judge, rider, and trainer said the other day on FB. Judging isn’t going to change, a quiet horse is more appealing and fun to watch/ride vs. a fresh one.[/QUOTE]

While I’d agree a civilized horse is more fun to ride, I’d argue a fresh one is almost ALWAYS more fun to watch

[greysfordays]

[QUOTE=GrayMare;8645627]

But penalizing slow or robotic horses and favoring horses with a little more snap would be a great place to start. This seems to be a much better option than turning a blind eye to what is going on now, or changing the system to allow drugs (which is not realistically a possible option).[/QUOTE]

As the owner of an extremely slow going and slow jumping horse, this a little frustrating to read. He is a great mover, with a huge ground covering stride and a big lofty, slow jump. I chose him specifically bc I thought he would be competitive. If you saw him at the show grounds when i’m constantly taking him for a walk, you might think he is on something. But that’s just him…he’s just a sleepy jug head. He goes on a saddle walk in the morning and early in the week, gets a 10 minute lunge to get one or two of his giant bucks out.

If you ask me, he is very suitable for his job. He is spooky and has taken quite a long time to mature, so we have gone slowly with him. He was doing 1.20m in Europe when I bought him and we took him to baby greens so he could learn to go straight down the lines and get a nice change and not be worried. He’s finally making his debut in the first years and very confident about his job at last!

Now I have ZERO issue with his getting beaten by a horse who all things equal has a more “game” expression. I have no problem getting beaten by someone who’s horse cracks their back harder than he does. And I have no problem with his getting beaten by a horse that’s just more brilliant and playful in the corners.

But I don’t think it’s right that I be penalized for having a naturally quiet horse that goes slowly bc that is his nature.

I would be thrilled for the long-term health of the sport to award brilliance above all else. Watching a horse like strapless gives me chills, it really does! But actively penalizing those quiet horses doesn’t seem totally fair either.

And I will say, in the last few months, I’ve been impressed to see some judges ignore the proud headshake in the corners off the single oxer and reward more expressive jumps. So I am hopeful the judging is moving in the right direction.

[MtnDrmz]

IMO the coverage of all of these topics is a good thing. If COTH ignored the recent comments becuase they had printed a story a couple months ago about the same type of comments, then it may not contnue to be discussed as much. The continued discussion is what can potentially bring on the discussion for how to actually change some aspects of what’s going on. What those changes are I really don’t know, but if we talk about it long enough, maybe someone or some thing will take notice and have a viable way to bring about new approaches.

I also find these conversations super eye opening and interesting because I really had very little knowledge of what’s out there prior to joining this forum. I know people drug, and I know that it happens more then we may think, but all the details of how, with what, at what expense, I really had no idea of. I have always ridden at a barn that plays by the rules. We won enough, but we were not as “consistent” 100% of the time like some of the BNT riders’/horses. I sometimes would wonder what their secret was for that solid trip no matter what, day in day out. Maybe it’s because they showed more then we did, or maybe it was because they had a way to make their horses more “consistent” through other means. I don’t know, but I have definitely questioned them more lately.

FWIW I really can’t imagine riding a horse over a course that has been ace’d. They get super dull, and not as sharp. How do these horses even on Gaba or something else jump so sharp and spactacular over the top of the fence, but then go back to sleep in the middle again??? I still wonder

[Peggy]

[QUOTE=greysfordays;8645757]
As the owner of an extremely slow going and slow jumping horse, this a little frustrating to read. He is a great mover, with a huge ground covering stride and a big lofty, slow jump. I chose him specifically bc I thought he would be competitive. If you saw him at the show grounds when i’m constantly taking him for a walk, you might think he is on something. But that’s just him…he’s just a sleepy jug head. He goes on a saddle walk in the morning and early in the week, gets a 10 minute lunge to get one or two of his giant bucks out.

If you ask me, he is very suitable for his job. He is spooky and has taken quite a long time to mature, so we have gone slowly with him. He was doing 1.20m in Europe when I bought him and we took him to baby greens so he could learn to go straight down the lines and get a nice change and not be worried. He’s finally making his debut in the first years and very confident about his job at last!

Now I have ZERO issue with his getting beaten by a horse who all things equal has a more “game” expression. I have no problem getting beaten by someone who’s horse cracks their back harder than he does. And I have no problem with his getting beaten by a horse that’s just more brilliant and playful in the corners.

But I don’t think it’s right that I be penalized for having a naturally quiet horse that goes slowly bc that is his nature.

I would be thrilled for the long-term health of the sport to award brilliance above all else. Watching a horse like strapless gives me chills, it really does! But actively penalizing those quiet horses doesn’t seem totally fair either.

And I will say, in the last few months, I’ve been impressed to see some judges ignore the proud headshake in the corners off the single oxer and reward more expressive jumps. So I am hopeful the judging is moving in the right direction.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the answer is for the judging to be more inclusive. In other words, don’t penalize quiet or slightly snappy.

[poltroon]

Maybe it would be safer to drug the people instead.

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=MHM;8642153]
You’re asking if someone can post a link to a screen shot of copyrighted material from the Chronicle? You’re asking on the Chronicle’s own BB?? Really?!?[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. if you want to read articles in the magazine, then subscribe to the magazine.

I roll my eyes when people get fussy with something that is going on with the BB. It is FREE, folks. COTH incurs substantial cost by providing us this free BB. Please do not expect access to copyrighted material.

[inca]

@greysfordays;8645757

He was doing 1.20m in Europe when I bought him and we took him to baby greens so he could learn to go straight down the lines and get a nice change and not be worried. He’s finally making his debut in the first years and very confident about his job at last!

Isn’t that against the rules? I didn’t think 1.2 meter horses were allowed to do the Baby Greens. (Now, I know in practice “everyone does it” with their fancy imports.)

[intheirons]

Greysfordays, that is my concern too. I also have a pretty lazy horse, but he does his job very well. I don’t think I want to see the laziness penalized, but I think that a little expression shouldn’t be penalized. I think Peggy’s right… the judging shouldn’t penalize a little happiness, but it shouldn’t penalize lazy, drug-free horses either. I really hope the judging is moving in a more positive direction. It’s better for everyone!