For a discussion on this thread I think you will need a few barrels of Long Island Iced Tea.
I won’t derail the discussion about having a good drinking party so please rest assured that yes I understand and agree with your comments about what/where speech is protected by law. I actually deal with a State’s AG’s office on APA legal matters.
Mea culpa… my choice of words left a lot to be desired.
Just a reminder for those following along still…
It was Glaccum who brought up the freedom of speech thing in comments to one interviewer. Walker IS an attorney… but I have seen ZERO comments anywhere connecting him with that freedom of speech argument.
Glaccum worked in the private sector for several years (I think for IBM) and has been an event organizer for 40 years. will give him a pass for not using freedom of speech in a correct constitutional legal context. He isn’t a lawyer. Neither am I - lol! But I’ve worked with many, and have many in my family, and I understand why some lawyers would look at the freedom of speech comment, and find it odd. If an actual lawyer had tried to argue their constitutional right to freedom of speech was being infringed upon in some way… well, I can understand it if other lawyers would respond with rolled eyes, and snarking say, “Hey buddy. You need to go back to law school.”
So again… for the snarky lawyers in the back (haha), it was Glaccum who made those comments originally… not anyone involved in this situation who graduated from law school 
Bottom line… PFEE can call their eventing venue whatever they want. And a free press/blog can also say, “I won’t use the venue’s actual name in my column or publication, as the name is an offensive slur in my opinion.”
Freedom of speech includes freedom NOT to speak, or write, anything you don’t want to. And there is a whole freedom of the press aspect to this thing to consider as well. In my opinion, all parties involved are exercising their respective freedoms in this situation… which is good. It’s one of the nice things about living in America. We can do that, and not worry about being thrown in jail for it.
The thing is, actions have consequences. Being thrown in jail is not the only consequence folks should worry about or think about. The venue was named in honor of the land owner’s family history. The folks who have all concluded that doesn’t matter, the name is offensive, and it should be renamed or only referred to as “P Field” because other parts of American history with respect to slave plantations are upsetting to many black people?
Well… there is an implication involved with renaming that venue, and co-mingling/conflating the land owner’s family history with American history and slave holding plantation owners. The land owner won’t go to jail… but he and his family’s reputation may very well be harmed by this sort of co-mingling/conflating of various histories and the word “plantation.” That’s not a “nothing” issue.
Earlier, someone brought up the old rhetorical trick… “Have you beaten your wife lately?” I think that really clarified a reason a person in the land owner’s position MIGHT choose NOT to rename the venue in a situation like this…
If he renames it… he’s almost acknowledging there WAS something racist about the venue’s name and his family history. And that the racist venue name NEEDED to be changed. It’s the equivalent of answering the “Have you beaten you wife lately,” question with a simple “No - I haven’t.” Half the people hearing that answer will assume you USED to beat your wife - ugggh. No one wants to be assumed to have beaten their wife if they didn’t. Just the same as most people don’t want to be accused of being racists, if they aren’t actually racists.
White fragility is an interesting concept. But when applying that label to real people in the real world in real situations… well… people get pissed off. If you care about societal issues surrounding race, and want to have a meaningful constructive discussions with others… I think it’s wise to avoid that whole “white fragility” train of thought… it leads to more arguments and division than anything constructive, in my opinion. The same thing can be said of the concept of “white savior complex.” I think many people who are white and have argued in support of EN and Leslie Wylie in this situation exhibit “white savior complex” traits. I think LW herself is a CLASSIC example of someone who has a white savior complex. But it’s a pretty caustic thing to say about others. The conversation will cease to go ANYWHERE constructive once you accuse the other side of having “white savior complex.” It’s a harsh, personal criticism of the other party in a debate, and reflects a judgement of a fundamental character flaw in terms of the other person (essentially, it means they take up racial causes for self aggrandizement… not because they sincerely care about these causes).
Which brings me to my last point. Society has changed recently, and these concepts of white privilege, white fragility, and systemic racism have been discussed widely this last year in particular. I think there is a danger in using these concepts to build arguments that lead to pointing at individuals and attacking their fundamental character, and calling them “racist.” And that’s what is happening, over and over. It’s happening on this thread, and it’s happening in real life. I think it’s an unfortunate, and counterproductive thing that is going on in society when we all attack one another’s character in this way. Real racism in society and in our history is brutal and ugly. I think it’s dangerous to use a “mousetrap” like this to label all of one’s ideological opponents as “racist.” It diminishes the power of that word…
Oooof… apologies for being a dunce - my bad.
I do. I have found myself taken aback on a more than a few occasions by comments made by people who I would not consider racist and yet … I find it is the flip offhand remark can reveal that very systematic but not overt racism that is so rampant in society.
I went on record in the early pages saying I thought EN went about this name change demand completely wrong. So I am not one of your “woke” folk out to vilify the EO and LO. Just providing a little food for thought.
I didn’t know you were an attorney. I can understand that you have some strong feelings on some of this situation then
I will observe, that different attorney’s personal willingness to engage in certain arguments often depends on the type of law they practice. I’d imagine if you specialize in constitutional law… much of the stuff people say on the news in furtherance of a particular political position makes you TWITCH. :winkgrin: I’m not educated like you are with respect to certain topics… but a lot of it sure makes me twitch and think to myself, “Ooof. That was stupid. It’s downright scary how stupid some politicians can be when making legal arguments… are they really that silly and ignorant, or do they just say this stuff because they believe the voters are all silly and ignorant? Yikes. :no:.”
I specialized in macroeconomics in school. I loved the subject then, and still find it fascinating now. But it’s SUPER hard for me to listen to people on all sides of the political divide talk about economic policy on the news, and in real life. I routinely avoid discussing economic stuff with people, and delving into how ALL sides are full of garbage on economic topics (I think it’s mostly a matter of complete economic ignorance on society’s part though… which is sad to me). Anyway…, I mostly avoid these discussions and arguments in real life because they just make friends and others yawn after about 15 seconds, at which point they say, “Gosh. I hated that mandatory Econ class when I went through business school. Why did you love it, and decide to actually MAJOR in that field again!!!” :lol: But seriously. People say all sorts of stuff confidently about how the economy is “good” or “bad” … but don’t even know what the three key macroeconomic indicators are, much less how they are calculated, and why that is important to understand. :sigh:
Oh well. Sorry for having gotten harsh with you at points on this thread Fitz. I’d imagine being well educated on constitutional law must make you feel CRAZY much of the time these days :sadsmile:
Oh I didn’t mean it like that! More like we needed to adjust the beverages to scale…or to paraphrase Roy Scheider in Jaws “We’re going to need some bigger drinks…”
Sorry about the off topic nonsense, and perhaps inappropriate levity in the face of an unfolding disaster in CO
it hasn’t, and it will be. This thread is evidence of that.
AGREED!
:no:
I can’t agree strongly enough with this. These terms (“racist!” “white fragility!” “check your privilege” and on the other side, “snowflake!”) are being used to shut down dialogue when a person disagrees with the view that has been deemed acceptable. And they are a lazy way of thinking and arguing, because they are equivalent to saying, “I don’t have to explain why I think your view is misguided; I’m just going to label you racist, end of discussion.” We are also seeing assertions that (for example) white people have “no right to have an opinion” on issues that relate to race.
That’s not how democracy (or civilized society) works when it comes to issues that affect everyone. And it’s not going to do anything to move us toward a harmonious, mutually respectful society. In fact, it just perpetuates an “us versus them” mentality.
John McWhorter, the well-known Black linguist at Columbia, has said that “Antiracism” has taken on characteristics of a religion-- a creed one does not question, and which has many symbolic rituals, but which does little to actually help Black people. https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion?ref=scroll
I will say that in general, it has been refreshing on this thread to see all sides of the controversy examined and discussed, and largely in ways that respect both the landowner’s point of view and the perspectives of potential competitors/visitors to the property.
That’s just patently untrue. There are countless examples of people getting fired for offensive Tweets.
You are saying two different things
Pluvinel: you can post whatever you want, provided it is allowed on that platform. True.
Djones: you can be fired for what you post. True.
freedom of utterances isn’t freedom from social consequences
ETA, I did not quote the post which has now poofed…
I deleted my post because I misread/misinterpreted pluvinels post. No worries 
I find people like those friends of yours quite odd -to be pitied really, what a shame to have that kind of mindset. Like riding a bay horse differently than a grey horse based on the color difference. There are plenty of reasons to like and dislike people on the content of their character. Or I suppose, sometimes their lack of it.
My apologies for the delayed reply, but I did want to be sure I responded. You understand my position correctly (although to elaborate slightly, I care about the justification that others might be hurt by my name due to reasons like historical atrocities committed against their ancestors, rather than general non-specific offense because I live at “Blue Barn Farm” and the color blue makes them upset). Thank you for reading my posts and considering them even though you disagree. I understand that my POV on this matter is not universal.
I’m always a bit confused by this concern/alleged threat. It was established from the get-go by the property owner, by the event organizer, and by Eventing Nation that the name of the event had no original relation to race or slavery. The reason for the name change request was not because the origin of the name was problematic, it was because the event now reaches such a wide audience that the name could be misunderstood. Mainstream media coverage would not have been able to accurately make any claim of racism by covering this issue. Other posters have pointed to riots and looting happening in other parts of the country, but those are happening in direct response to someone’s death. I don’t understand why this could be used as a threat that would carry any weight, even if someone wanted to.
That said, I think we’ve established by now that I don’t have a spare 300 acres for everyone to event over, so perhaps I am missing something here.
Cuyler Walker had retreated considerably from public life since 2014 & I suspect he didn’t relish it again. I don’t know why he dropped out of the political race after the cut-off, the state may have investigated it and no charges were filed that I can find, but I doubt it was pleasant.
No worries at all. Im in Colorado and got evacuated on Saturday (we’re back now thank god) and believe me I could use a laugh!
Yes but a big fire can sit around you so close enough!
Uhhhh… there were definitely some protests that happened in the wake of George Floyd’s death… and others focused on the deaths in Atlanta and Louisville… but they spread to other cities, and then protests went beyond those particular deaths of specific individuals in specific situations, and become more about general protests pertaining to issues involving the police and the black community across the country (historic injustices are part of the underlying issues for sure), and other specific concerns raised by the group Black Lives Matter have also been part of various protests. Protests in New York, Portland, Seattle, St. Louis, and elsewhere all summer became about much more than the specific deaths of certain individuals. The whole CHOP zone in Seattle comes to mind…
During St. Louis protests in late summer, a viral moment was captured on video when a group marched down a private street, and 2 private property owners stood in front of their large luxurious home, with guns in hand. The group that was marching was not simply focused on BLM issues or a specific death… apparently they wanted to raise their voices to the mayor (or another local St. Louis official - I can’t remember)… and that individual lived on the same private street as the folks who were caught on video holding the guns. The crowd apparently wanted to march directly in front of that local official’s home, and had to pass the other private individual’s home on the way there, and go on a private street in a gated community. The crowd did go through a gate (forcefully… it was knocked off its hinges) to march on this private street. According to the homeowners who were seen holding guns… people in the crowd shouted threatening things at them as they were sitting outside in the evening on their own patio on their private property, as they were marching by, which is supposedly why the two people ran inside and got guns to “guard” their property. Who knows what happened… none of us were there. We only know what’s been reported and what the publicized video seems to reveal… two nervous people standing on their own front lawn holding guns as a big crowd passes by. Additionally… we now know the guns these private individuals were holding in the widely seen video were legally registered and owned, and the two people were standing on their own property, and the crowd had forcefully entered a gated neighborhood and started marching down a private street. REGARDLESS of any of those facts though, and the fact that the people who owned that home were lifelong Democrats, who had in no way gone out looking to confront this crowd (they were initially seated on their own patio at home on the evening the video was taken)… a lot of the media coverage about them was HARSH. They were portrayed as crazy, gun brandishing racists. Those two people are now facing charges for brandishing a weapon… and the prosecutor who filed them is known to be VERY left wing, and VERY activist, and the charges are VERY controversial.
After watching how that story has played out… I can totally understand someone in the land owner’s position with respect to the Plantation Field controversy… well… I can understand him being VERY worried about any main stream media attention. The media have gotten key details on many of these cases WRONG when reporting on them. Look at the sad Breonna Taylor story and all the related reporting. The media ran with stories about a “no knock” warrant for months… but apparently the investigation revealed that was not the case with respect to the warrant, and that there were many other details of the case that have been inaccurately reported, or outright omitted, from all the news coverage. These details were revealed after there was a decision not to prosecute the officers involved in her death. Her death is very sad… but there was a rush to judgement about it, and a lot of marches and protests, and the Louisville community was divided and pained, and trust between police and the black community was further damaged… and inaccurate rushed reporting by a lot of the media fueled much of this tension.
It’s a dynamic that has played out across the country over and over. People still talk about Michael Brown and “Hands Up - don’t shoot!”… but when Eric Holder and the Obama DOJ looked into that case, they found that that narrative was out right made up by one particular witness… the police officer involved was actually assaulted by Michael Brown and his use of deadly force was determined to be justified…
So… I’m pointing all these other cases out now, not to say that there isn’t systemic racism or real issues out there… but just to say that mistakes happen with many of these stories. Media coverage is rushed and gets certain key details wrong. Passionate protests happen because these ARE very sensitive and painful societal issues… and later on, when details of investigations are made public, few people even realize much of what was initially reported about certain cases was inaccurate. It happens entirely too often. But damage done by looting and fires in various communities? That’s often permanent. Ferguson, Missouri was torn apart after the protests over Mike Brown’s shooting… and the whole situation is tragic. It was years ago, but much of that area still has not recovered…
I find it odd that you seem to be making a case that this property owner had no real reason to fear main stream media coverage… because the facts were on his side, and the name didn’t really have racist origins. Anyone who has been paying attention to these issues over the last several years has learned that there is OFTEN a rush to judgement… and simmering racial tension and societal wounds are right there under the surface, and protests easily escalate into riots… and only after the fact do we all learn that some of the initial reporting on these stories was inaccurate. But it’s too late by then for small businesses and some private property owners that got caught up in one of these situations… the damage is done, and few folks even acknowledge afterwards what actual investigations into many of these cases revealed, and how many widely reported details proved inaccurate.
I think the land owner in this Plantation Field situation had EVERY reason to fear that media coverage would be slanted, unfair, inaccurate, and there would be a rush to judgement that would cause harm to his and his family’s reputation… and might actually result in a crowd of protestors showing up on his doorstep. And I don’t blame him for feeling threatened by that, and wanting to avoid anything like that.
@Equkelly please stay safe and I hope all the horses at your barn are safe, too. I’ve friends in Fort Collins so I’m nervously watching from afar. Definitely holding you all in my thoughts, worthless as that may be.
I don’t know people like that because I’ve reached the point where I cannot allow that kind of toxicity in my life. I am blessed to have no one like that in my family, I work in boutique firm now with no one like that on staff, and no one in my small school community. Thus, anyone like that I may run into I simply avoid the connection in the future.
But, yes, it’s the flip offhand remark that reveals so much. So much of what has genuinely repulsed me in this thread was of that nature and I’m astounded that the authors don’t grok the message they send when they write some of the stuff they write. It’s been eye opening for me in a very negative way and I’m generally disheartened by the whole thing.
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