Unlimited access >

Eventing's Biggest Enemy?

Deleted

Proving your point, I don’t even know who you are talking about for the last two examples. I think I know who you are talking about for the first one, but that’s more by process of elimination than because I actually heard about the incident.

This is concerning for two reasons:

  1. I’m a pretty avid follower of the sport, and I specifically try to focus on the lesser-known aspects. That I’ve never heard of these incidents means they were very deliberately kept offline.

  2. Even when presenting these examples as evidence of the “culture of secrecy” and the “hush mentality”, you aren’t naming names. Because that’s how ingrained the culture is. At least tell us where you got the drug charges info?

Sorry, Marigold. I think the OP did the right thing not naming names given the purpose of her post. It’s not about the individuals, it’s about the milieu (if that’s even the word I’m looking for). And I completely respect her well articulated position. I have no idea who she’s talking about and was unaware of all but one extensively discussed issue but the existence of a pattern like this makes my stomach knot up. Will be following this thread with interest.

TheBrat I applaud you. I also agree with your post.

I think riders are scared to speak up, but I think they also know if they do speak up, it means the rules will be implemented and that’s something they don’t want. The ULR’s don’t want the rules to be pushed upon them because that makes getting to the top even harder. Not that this is okay, I’m just thinking this is their mentality.

The more the rules are pushed upon the riders, the harder it is for them to stay at the top with a ‘good’ reputation. Even though we know what goes behind closed doors with most of those riders. Very few are about the welfare of the horses I feel like.

I can understand your view and you make good points.

(funny, having trouble focusing my thoughts which makes me ponder why, but also pondering that I struggle, because I’ve been schooled by the culture
hmmmm)

Eventing is a sport based on a lot of relative things with some measureable things tossed in to give it structure. Two of three phases have measurable objectives, fence penalties and time which have that direct reward/penalty thought you mention. Types of bits, nosebands, clothes are all areas within the sport that typically cannot be questioned if one is wrong in their choice.

The sport has many subjective aspects and I feel this is where you shape your frustrations. Look at one of the most basic, horsemanship. We deal with large prey animals that have the potential to kill. Time and time again I read blogs, posts, articles mentioning how people are treated if they comment of an other’s manner of training or riding. Consider the comments, back and forth just on ML’s style of riding, and the ire it can raise, as example of why in this sport, we at times don’t speak up till it reaches of level of public outcry. Outcry that cannot be silenced. Horse training, horse riding is relative and as such, unless we are also given the context, it may be hard to adjudicate an action against or a condemnation against the moment. In the case of ML it is less hard since she has repeated her style, her abuse enough that at the least, her punishment is close to a shunning by the sport as she can find.

As much as I agree, without acknowledging this subjectiveness and it’s pervasive nature throughout the sport, you’d not make any progress in finding either a solution or a reduction in your own frustration.

There is another ongoing thread about challenging something as basicly objective as time, yet multiple examples are raised showing officials making judgement calls without any effort to investigate, even when shown evidence to the contrary. In the Fairhill thread a lively debate carried for a time on something as basic as what do you do when you see or have reported blood. The answers spoke volume to the nature of your problem, because good people put a relative spin on blood (how much, what color) and argued the difficulties of stopping a competitor when suggested that any sign of red and the rider must be stopped.

In the WTF are we doing thread, 68 or 69 pages devoted to this very idea of subjectiveness over objectiveness approach to fences that have killed living creatures. Are we sure it is the fence, take them out and we dumb down the sport, maybe it’s the qualifications
The beautify of a relative sport is that officials, riders, trainers can all hide in the spaces between.

You are then fighting two things, a long standing culture that suppresses the ability to speak out and a sport that thrives on the relatives to be used for gain. I agree, you don’t have many options for solutions for either you define everything in specifics (impossible) or you begin to train a generation of officials that are willing to step away from that hush culture and not only call out, but affect punishments equally. I’m not holding my breath.

I will continue to say that Eventing has reached a decision point in its progress. Now or soon is the time for it to split into two distinct entities, both with their own rules, officials, organizations, and even venues. We are past time to separate the professional parts of the sport from the amatuer. They are two very different worlds now and given most of the infractions you speak are done at a professional level, it may be easier to police. It also makes it easier for those outside to choose not to engage in that level as protest (viewing, buying, supporting) as an extension of that punishment.

The root of your frustration lies in money. Money creates greed which removes the backbone from people who want either power or money. ML, in my opinion, should already be suspended from the sport. That she is not only confirms the root cause I mention.

1 Like

[QUOTE=Marigold;8938082]

  1. Even when presenting these examples as evidence of the “culture of secrecy” and the “hush mentality”, you aren’t naming names. Because that’s how ingrained the culture is. At least tell us where you got the drug charges info?[/QUOTE]

To reiterate my point about secrecy, if you want to find out about positive drug tests and sanctions on the FEI website, they make it bamboozling to find. But here it is.

https://inside.fei.org/fei/your-role/athletes/fei-tribunal/suspended-athletes-horses

Click on Table of Administrative Sanctions. You will recognize a few names there I am sure.

If you aren’t appalled enough, go ahead and then FEI horse search on the horse Clear Water, click on Horse Details and take a look at who owns the horse


Unfortunately this is just another example of so many

Can you pm me who this was please? That is disgusting. But now that you mention this, I have seen riders do that here in Ontario too. Horse completed the event or they have stops etc. Rider gets on after XC and rides the hell out of it for an hr or two after.

It reminds of this forum sometimes. I can’t tell you how many times I have questioned a certain UL riders actions only to get torn apart by everyone because said UL rider used to be seen as an angel and the best thing ever in the sport. The point is - it wasn’t about her - it was about her actions and choices in the sport and how they had dangerous consequences for herself and her horses. It’s like the pros are untouchable because they are famous and there is celebrity worship happening.

15 years ago the professional aspect of eventing looked completely different. Loss of the long format and social media has changed the sport completely and not for the better. The influx of Pros into the sport has brought a lot of bad things in my opinion.

I would love for the pros to do their thing with FEI and the National Associations to give us our own Amateur eventing series.

[QUOTE=TheBrat;8938202]
To reiterate my point about secrecy, if you want to find out about positive drug tests and sanctions on the FEI website, they make it bamboozling to find. But here it is.

https://inside.fei.org/fei/your-role/athletes/fei-tribunal/suspended-athletes-horses

Click on Table of Administrative Sanctions. You will recognize a few names there I am sure.

If you aren’t appalled enough, go ahead and then FEI horse search on the horse Clear Water, click on Horse Details and take a look at who owns the horse


Unfortunately this is just another example of so many[/QUOTE]

Wow
certainly tells a tale right there doesn’t it. :mad:

Depo is a banned substance? This is something I didn’t know.

Given to Twizted Syster. I honestly had no idea that it was a banned substance since really everyone uses it, it seems like.

[QUOTE=LadyB;8938247]
Depo is a banned substance? This is something I didn’t know.

Given to Twizted Syster. I honestly had no idea that it was a banned substance since really everyone uses it, it seems like.[/QUOTE]

I believe the issue is that it has a calming effect. Also why the heck is it being given to the other two horses Gideon and Clear Water, both of whom are geldings!

Well said OP.

I’ve heard of geldings receiving Depo on multiple occasions. The ones that are more hot.

I used to give it to my horse that was Cryptorchid. It’s not a good drug.

[QUOTE=LadyB;8938262]
I’ve heard of geldings receiving Depo on multiple occasions. The ones that are more hot.[/QUOTE]

I suppose my point is, they are breaking the rules. Giving their male horses female hormone medication to make them more quiet at a competition is not personally what I would consider acceptable behavior or putting their horses first.

[QUOTE=TheBrat;8938202]
To reiterate my point about secrecy, if you want to find out about positive drug tests and sanctions on the FEI website, they make it bamboozling to find. But here it is.

https://inside.fei.org/fei/your-role/athletes/fei-tribunal/suspended-athletes-horses

Click on Table of Administrative Sanctions. You will recognize a few names there I am sure.

If you aren’t appalled enough, go ahead and then FEI horse search on the horse Clear Water, click on Horse Details and take a look at who owns the horse


Unfortunately this is just another example of so many[/QUOTE]

Thank you! That’s bookmarked for future tracking.

I did know about Clear Water. There has been (minimal) reporting on that ownership at least, but very little noise about the rider change after 2013.

http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/karen-oconnor-injury-comeback-28428

[QUOTE=Marigold;8938340]
Thank you! That’s bookmarked for future tracking.

I did know about Clear Water. There has been (minimal) reporting on that ownership at least, but very little noise about the rider change after 2013.

http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/karen-oconnor-injury-comeback-28428[/QUOTE]

I do remember reading that article now you mentioned it. I wonder if they deliberately changed the name from RF Clearwater to just Clear Water for a reason?

Just on that sanction list alone, we have one Olympian, one Pan Ams gold medallist and one rider who just received grant money to campaign a horse in Europe. They know the rules, they are breaking them and yet they STILL get the support to stay at the top!

Perhaps what bothers me most is this is just a very small glimpse into a couple of scenarios where they got caught out on something relatively minor. God only knows how deep this goes

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8938220]
Can you pm me who this was please? That is disgusting. But now that you mention this, I have seen riders do that here in Ontario too. Horse completed the event or they have stops etc. Rider gets on after XC and rides the hell out of it for an hr or two after.

It reminds of this forum sometimes. I can’t tell you how many times I have questioned a certain UL riders actions only to get torn apart by everyone because said UL rider used to be seen as an angel and the best thing ever in the sport. The point is - it wasn’t about her - it was about her actions and choices in the sport and how they had dangerous consequences for herself and her horses. It’s like the pros are untouchable because they are famous and there is celebrity worship happening.

15 years ago the professional aspect of eventing looked completely different. Loss of the long format and social media has changed the sport completely and not for the better. The influx of Pros into the sport has brought a lot of bad things in my opinion.

I would love for the pros to do their thing with FEI and the National Associations to give us our own Amateur eventing series.[/QUOTE]

I can only assume you are talking about me here, as there are only 3 of us competing there at hh that are “rolex riders” & I don’t believe either of the other 2 fell off
 and I am not sure who told you this, but it is not the facts. I fell off of a young training level horse before the water on xc. I waited there next to the jump judges for medical to check me out and then walked him back up to warm up. I remounted him in sj warm up and jumped him for about 5 minutes over an oxer about 10 times, so he didn’t end the weekend with dumping me in the xc. There was no “beating” or “abusiveness” that went on and I never came off a second time. He had dumped several amateurs in the field at home and has learned to get away with it. When I fell, he reared up and hot me in the face with his poll, and I came off balance. I held onto his reins and left the course immediately. I do not see anything wrong with taking him back to warm up and jumping a few jumps so that he does not get away with this behavior.

[QUOTE=txhorsetrainer;8938368]
I can only assume you are talking about me here, as there are only 3 of us competing there at hh that are “rolex riders” & I don’t believe either of the other 2 fell off
 and I am not sure who told you this, but it is not the facts. I fell off of a young training level horse before the water on xc. I waited there next to the jump judges for medical to check me out and then walked him back up to warm up. I remounted him in sj warm up and jumped him for about 5 minutes over an oxer about 10 times, so he didn’t end the weekend with dumping me in the xc. There was no “beating” or “abusiveness” that went on and I never came off a second time. He had dumped several amateurs in the field at home and has learned to get away with it. When I fell, he reared up and hot me in the face with his poll, and I came off balance. I held onto his reins and left the course immediately. I do not see anything wrong with taking him back to warm up and jumping a few jumps so that he does not get away with this behavior.[/QUOTE]

I am an official and had I seen you do this at my event I would have asked the TD to take action. I understand the idea of training the horse after having something like that happen however, you have been eliminated from the competition and therefore you should not be participating in the competition after that point. Bring the horse back for schooling the day after. Rules are enforced in warm ups as well as on course. There are a variety of reasons as to why we don’t allow riders who have fallen to get back on. For example what if you had been injured in the fall, concussion/neck injury. You would be putting everyone in the warm up at risk

Edit: you openly admit the horse struck you in the head with his poll and he was rearing. Even more reasons as to why you should not be endangering other competitors in a warm up you have no business being in

3 Likes

Exactly ^^ Thats what schooling shows are for.

[QUOTE=txhorsetrainer;8938368]
I can only assume you are talking about me here, as there are only 3 of us competing there at hh that are “rolex riders” & I don’t believe either of the other 2 fell off
 and I am not sure who told you this, but it is not the facts. I fell off of a young training level horse before the water on xc. I waited there next to the jump judges for medical to check me out and then walked him back up to warm up. I remounted him in sj warm up and jumped him for about 5 minutes over an oxer about 10 times, so he didn’t end the weekend with dumping me in the xc. There was no “beating” or “abusiveness” that went on and I never came off a second time. He had dumped several amateurs in the field at home and has learned to get away with it. When I fell, he reared up and hot me in the face with his poll, and I came off balance. I held onto his reins and left the course immediately. I do not see anything wrong with taking him back to warm up and jumping a few jumps so that he does not get away with this behavior.[/QUOTE]

Unless of course, as an ULR, you believe that these rules should apply to everyone except you??