Exhausted options - anything I haven’t tried?

[Alterration]

First, I’ll start with - I’m a very experienced horseperson, trained many from scratch, been doing it for 35+ years, own a barn, and have multiple very well behaved horses.

I have a horse in my possession who has flunked out of 4 training barns. He was given to me as a last resort. He isn’t at present rideable, but that comes second to his issues with paddock life.

I have acclimated numerous formerly stalled horses to paddock life (at least 12 hours of turnout). I’ve done it with ex-show horses and I’ve done it with ex-racehorses. This particular horse is not having any of it. I’ve worked at this with him for 3 years and in that time he has:

Attempted to jump a 5’ pipe fence from a standstill, walking away with scrapes after getting hung up on it (don’t ask how we got him untangled from it and off of it, it was terrifying).

Run through 3 gates.

Run through electric fencing (put up in order to keep him from running through any more gates or fencing).

Run into the barn wall.

He is fine when he first goes out. He has buddies and everyone has slow feed hay nets (multiples). He’ll be fine for awhile and then just loses it. It doesn’t seem to be after any particular time limit (I initially acclimated him slowly) but instead environmental stimuli are a problem.

What sets him off?

Deer. Garbage Truck. New car in the driveway. Deliveries. Neighbor’s dog barking. Birds. Guy with a chainsaw far away. The tractor. Horses being moved around. Horses being ridden in the arena. Nothing at all. Maybe ghosts, I don’t know.

Yesterday when I went to bring the horses in I slid the big barn door open (it has a bar across on the inside so it’s a two step process) and he galloped around the corner and bounced off the bar. Thankfully it didn’t break because that would have been a mess.

He is incredibly anxious outside and weaves often when observed (when he isn’t bugging the crap out of my poor tolerant older gelding). He makes the other horses anxious. When I try to ride the other horses, he runs the fence like a cutting horse - the arena fence borders his fence so it’s not like I’m taking him away. This makes for very exciting rides on my horses, who are wondering why we’re all freaking out.

He is leadable and longeable. Actually listens quite well. Better in long lines since you can control both sides. Sound, but has terrible conformation. He does have a touch of uveitis but the vet said it shouldn’t be enough to really cause this level of drama. Scoped for ulcers. One vet said he had hock arthritis so he could be in the process of fusing, but the hocks still move fine and again, this amount of drama?

My plan when I accepted this horse was to see if I could get him functioning and if not he could hang in the pasture but clearly that’s not happening. This morning, fed up, I left him in the stall (he can still see the other horses outside through a tiny window) with the radio on and he is perfectly happy and content munching on hay. The horses outside all look like they have taken a giant deep breath.

He eats free choice grass hay plus a flake of alfalfa, and some beet pulp as carrier for his vitamins. He is on a calming supplement which doesn’t seem to have done squat. No grain. I’ve tried removing the alfalfa, doesn’t seem to help. I could pull the beet pulp, but then he won’t eat vitamins. Maybe that’s worthwhile, I don’t know.

If I can get him rideable (which is doubtful but I suppose possible given how trainable he is when he is controlled) I wonder to what end it will be - sell him to a show barn with the admonishment that he must always be stalled? It is not abnormal in his breed and discipline to always be stalled, so I suppose that’s possible. But I don’t know that I can be sure of it.

So - before I make a final call, is there anything I haven’t thought of? He is a very sweet horse, loving in the stall and while being handled. Not aggressive in any way. Just a fruitcake. Maybe someone out in the boondocks with 24/7 pasture could acclimate him, but there’s a high probability that he would run through the fence and kill himself before then.

What’s weird is that he’s super easy to handle. It’s not a handling issue. He was bad initially for the farrier and to lead and do all the basics but I’ve fixed that. So all the things about humans he’s fine for, it’s the “being a horse” that he completely sucks at. I just don’t know what else to do with him.

[floppyammy]

Off the top of my head, if the purpose was that he is intended only to be a pasture pet, he could live on trazadone, Prozac or CBD. Of course, none of those options are ideal if the intent is for him to become a riding horse.

[Alterration]

@floppyammy

Off the top of my head, if the purpose was that he is intended only to be a pasture pet, he could live on trazadone, Prozac or CBD. Of course, none of those options are ideal if the intent is for him to become a riding horse.

Thanks - he was tried on trazadone, but I’m not sure it had a ton of effect. Not enough to have him live out. Not sure about CBD. And who is going to do that for the next 20 years?

As a riding horse in his discipline is the only way I can think of that he won’t commit equine-cide. But what if he has to retire and then where’s he going to go?

[endlessclimb]

Crazy idea, but could you tie him outside (blocker tie ring or similar) with a flake of great hay and water, when he tries to lose his cookies? I feel like some horses start moving and it ramps them up higher and higher, while being tied until they’re over the wave of anxiety helps them to learn they don’t have to move every time they’re nervous.

Might be worth a shot.

[beowulf]

Sounds like a textbook stereotypy between the weaving, pacing fence line, being set off. I agree that level of anxiety must make him and his paddock mates miserable.

I’m sure you know this, horses only jump fences (or run through them) to get to the other side. There is either something he is being kept from that he anticipates needing (grass, hay, buddies, etc) or something in the paddock he thinks is lacking (safety, food, size, whatever).

Over time horses tend to associate stalling with creature comforts - like being fed grain, and having their own hay free of competition from other horses. It doesn’t mean they like the stall or that the stall is even good for them – but they look forward to the amenities the stall provides. Grain time is probably the highest anticipatory routine a stalled horse has.

Horses with this level of high anxiety are prime 24/7 turnout candidates. Stalling indirectly makes their anxiety worse, because it supplements their anxiousness around a set regime. Most “bad” behaviors are related to them anticipating their grain, sometimes the only good payload in a day.

He may need a different pasture buddy or a different set up.

As a general rule I don’t like controlling the symptom (in this case, eliminating the negative behaviors) - of course, there is the safety component, but it’s better to explore the why as you are trying to now.

It’s easy to be critical of management and sometimes management changes are easier said than done. Some horses just don’t enjoy their paddock mates or pasture or hay or whatever, for whatever reason.

Sometimes everything is perfect, but the horse.

[sascha]

@Alterration

Not sure about CBD. And who is going to do that for the next 20 years?

Think of it not as a 20-year sentence but as something that may work to guide him over the mountain that he is sure is staring him down, insurmountable, frightening, looming, taunting. The hope would be that the dose would gradually be weaned back to zero as he adjusted.

This probably doesn’t apply, but I did have a horse who had a very specific idea of the size of turnout he should have. Anything ‘too small’ and he’d just leave. The larger the turnout the better. He’d only leave if you were late for dinner, “It’s ok. I understand you got busy. I’ll just let myself in now.”

I’d be tempted to try something similar to what endlessclimb suggested. Serve breakfast outside, take him out to eat, stay with while eating, return to stall with less tasty hay for the day. Repeat at pm feed. Gradually increase the time and your distance from him during meals.

Final note - try an acid buffer or even aloe vera gel anyway, despite the clear scoping.

[Alterration]

@beowulf

I’m sure you know this, horses only jump fences (or run through them) to get to the other side. There is either something he is being kept from that he anticipates needing (grass, hay, buddies, etc) or something in the paddock he thinks is lacking (safety, food, whatever).

I think it’s safety. For him, the outside world is terrifying.

Since it doesn’t matter which buddy is removed or added, nor even that the buddies are there, it seems like he thinks the outside is not safe, and that the lack of stimuli in the stall is safer. He does not pace the fenceline, what happens is that something happens (for instance, I take a horse from another paddock down to the arena which has a shared fenceline with his paddock, or the deer happen to cruise by the fenceline) and he literally gallops back and forth, sliding into the fence.

When he actually runs through the fence he does not run for awhile and then hit the fence. He runs, and it’s a bolt - if the fence is in the way, he hits it. It’s not that he’s trying to get through the fence so much as it’s in the way and he doesn’t notice it. He’s AWARE of fences, otherwise he’d hit it when he does his cutting horse impression. It’s just that when he’s in a panic, he forgets they exist.

He weaves when he wants attention. From anyone. Could be his buddy and he wants to play. Could be a human that walks by.

@beowulf

Horses with this level of high anxiety are prime 24/7 turnout candidates. Stalling is inversely bad for them, and makes their anxiety worse, because it supplements their anxiousness around a set regime. Most “bad” behaviors are related to them anticipating their grain, sometimes the only good payload in a day.

He doesn’t get grain, although he does get beet pulp. I can try him without to see if that helps.

He’s been rotated through buddies. Whole herd doesn’t help. Single horses don’t help. I don’t have any more horses to try him with.

I don’t have the ability to provide true 24/7 pasture on site, so he’d have to leave my place in order to do that. I have tried to turn him out 24/7 in the paddocks that I have, but that was a royal disaster. He became dangerous at night and since I live in a populated area, I became afraid that he would crash through a fence and get loose.

I suppose I should add - this horse apparently was a homebred for a first time breeder. He was found outside the fence from his mother so the birth was not attended. He was stalled for the first 6 years of his life, he has literally zero outside memories other than his birth memory. I wonder if there is something wrong with his wiring.

[Alterration]

@endlessclimb

Crazy idea, but could you tie him outside (blocker tie ring or similar) with a flake of great hay and water, when he tries to lose his cookies? I feel like some horses start moving and it ramps them up higher and higher, while being tied until they’re over the wave of anxiety helps them to learn they don’t have to move every time they’re nervous.

I can try it. He is happier when confined or constrained so it might work. I just don’t know if it would translate to being free for him. But hey, I’ve exhausted lots of other options, so I’m willing to give it a shot!

[endlessclimb]

Personally, I’d wait until he’s right on the cusp of a freak out, then tie him with the hay and water. Lots of snacks. If he ties decently, I’d go and do a few barn chores with him in earshot/eyeshot so that he is still coping with being outside “alone”, without the ability to act like a total dingbat. Once he’s taken a breath and bite or two of hay, cut him loose and see if he’s in a better frame of mind.

[Alterration]

Oh one more addition. The most successful way I’ve had him out is with my very low ranking retiree. Crazy horse was the top of the two so no resource competition. They have more hay bags than horses and loose piles on the ground.

Still witnessing the behavior. I’m just so frustrated with him. So - I really do think he’s like Melman the giraffe from that movie…he’s terrified of nature and cannot seem to acclimate.

If I could control him while nature was around, I think he might acclimate because he does look to humans for reassurance. But it’s the random things that set him off. So I’d have to orchestrate it very carefully.

[beowulf]

Some barns just cannot house 24/7 turnout. I get it.

How long have you let the dust settle between these changes?

With really anxious and difficult horses it can take months versus weeks, to settle in herd dynamics. Any changes tend to just “reset” the horse back to zero. Total lack of pasture-mate turnover/total stability is not something most boarding barns can reasonably accommodate.

Do you think you could find him a home with someone who keeps their horses at home and just needs a retiree companion or a pasture puff?

[IPEsq]

I’ve known a couple that just could not get used to/ safely handle turnout or even did not want to return to turnout after a medical event. Got worse as they got older into retirement/semi-retirement age. They did ok with a stall with a run out, but would say no to even a small paddock close to the barn. These are difficult horses to “retire” but not impossible.

The blind bolting is a big concern though. What if you do get him to be a riding horse and he has an episode under saddle for some reason? I knew one horse who was being bullied by his pasture mate when being brought in. It was pretty bad, but he went into blind panic and ran through the hot fence. He had also started having some “checked out” moments when being worked on the ground or ridden. After being a pretty beginner safe type for years. Shortly after these events started, he also started showing neurological signs from some severe neck arthritis and the C6-7 malformation. I am sure it was all related. Perhaps your horse has something like this going on plus his general feeling of worry about the outside. Would be worth checking before you try to see if he can be a riding horse. Might explain why he has flunked out of prior programs, though. If he is dealing with a chronic physical problem, even if not one that would make him lame, he is always at least teetering on being in a heightened sympathetic nervous system state because he is vulnerable.

[stargzng386]

If he’s truly been stalled 24/7 his entire life then I would expect the outside world to be very scary. I would get the strongest meds from your vet that you can. I’ve used fluoxetine with an anxious horse or even ace. I’d treat this like a rehab horse or a dog with separation anxiety. Very very slowly increasing time outside only when there are no freak outs. Could you start with a horse panel “stall” outside in the quietest part of your barnyard? It’s going to take a lot of time he’s had 6 years only in a stall.

[Alterration]

@beowulf

With really anxious and difficult horses it can take months versus weeks, to settle in herd dynamics. Any changes tend to just “reset” the horse back to zero. Total lack of pasture-mate turnover/total stability is not something most boarding barns can reasonably accommodate.

I’ve been trying to figure him out for 3 years Typically I’ve given him 3-6 months between changes to acclimate. Thankfully my other guys are like “whatever, move me here, I don’t care”.

I own the barn so I’ve done just about everything I can do here.

Handling-wise, while he’s easy to handle, I wouldn’t put him with a rookie. Many of his earlier handling issues which I have since resolved, were because he was with rookie handlers. He could not be shod or trimmed without tranquilizer and leading could only be done with a chain. I’ve fixed all of that but I suspect he’d backslide with less skilled handling. That would be my big concern with finding him a more pasture-environment home.

[Alterration]

@IPEsq

The blind bolting is a big concern though. What if you do get him to be a riding horse and he has an episode under saddle for some reason? I knew one horse who was being bullied by his pasture mate when being brought in. It was pretty bad, but he went into blind panic and ran through the hot fence. He had also started having some “checked out” moments when being worked on the ground or ridden. After being a pretty beginner safe type for years. Shortly after these events started, he also started showing neurological signs from some severe neck arthritis and the C6-7 malformation. I am sure it was all related. Perhaps your horse has something like this going on plus his general feeling of worry about the outside. Would be worth checking before you try to see if he can be a riding horse. Might explain why he has flunked out of prior programs, though. If he is dealing with a chronic physical problem, even if not one that would make him lame, he is always at least teetering on being in a heightened sympathetic nervous system state because he is vulnerable.

He was fairly thoroughly checked with his prior owner because of this and all they found were the hocks. Could it be truly neuro and something they don’t have a test for? Maybe. Again, I have wondered if it was something in his brain - maybe not enough oxygen at birth. He’s a big horse, and was a big foal and since his birth wasn’t attended, maybe he was deprived for awhile.

I’ve been concerned about the blind bolting and it’s one of the reasons I haven’t gone much further with him under saddle. On the ground he does seem to be aware of humans underneath him (and when I say underneath - he’s over 17h with a very long and upright saddlebred neck), but I’m always cautious and lead and longe him in a way that if he were to bolt, he wouldn’t cream me. He DID run over his former owner when she was in the roundpen with him and a dog ran up to him which can happen to any horse, but it does make me more cautious given the rest of his issues.

They did try a bute test (equioxx but same concept) to see if his issues were related to pain at that barn as well. No change.

[Alterration]

That’s how I initially got him outside, but the freakouts are random and still happening 3 years in.

When I tried him in the smaller paddock, that’s when he attempted to jump the 5’ fence, so it would have to be something stall-sized and very tall where he couldn’t try to jump out. Maybe half a 7’ roundpen? I don’t have one of those.

[Alterration]

@endlessclimb

Personally, I’d wait until he’s right on the cusp of a freak out, then tie him with the hay and water. Lots of snacks. If he ties decently, I’d go and do a few barn chores with him in earshot/eyeshot so that he is still coping with being outside “alone”, without the ability to act like a total dingbat. Once he’s taken a breath and bite or two of hay, cut him loose and see if he’s in a better frame of mind.

I’ll try that tomorrow morning. I’ve got a good tie area (my barn used to be a western breeding barn so I’ve got two sites with patience poles handy) and I can do that before I turn the others out.

He cross ties fine inside the barn, but I haven’t tried to tie him out. I should add that I’ve taken him out to work him when no one else is outside, and he’s fine. It does not seem to 100% be buddy-sourness. That was my first guess when I first started to try to unravel the puzzle. But I did work him, so he wasn’t just hanging out.

[endlessclimb]

Just make sure he’s tied to a blocker ring with a long rope, and that you can get to him in case he decides he means it.

I do think these types of horses work them selves into a tizzy, and when the option is removed it helps them find a more appropriate way to cope.

[FjordBCRF]

@Alterration

He is fine when he first goes out. He has buddies and everyone has slow feed hay nets (multiples). He’ll be fine for awhile and then just loses it. It doesn’t seem to be after any particular time limit (I initially acclimated him slowly) but instead environmental stimuli are a problem.

Have you tried turning him out and bringing him back in BEFORE he loses his mind? It sounds like trigger stacking to me with all the outside stimuli thats getting him; he’s ok until that 13th rabbit hopped across the pasture. I might try turning him out for short intervals and brining him in before he has the chance to get wound up, then start to increase the time he’s out and see if that helps any

[Alterration]

@sascha

I’d be tempted to try something similar to what endlessclimb suggested. Serve breakfast outside, take him out to eat, stay with while eating, return to stall with less tasty hay for the day. Repeat at pm feed. Gradually increase the time and your distance from him during meals.

Final note - try an acid buffer or even aloe vera gel anyway, despite the clear scoping.

Sorry - missed this one - not sure how! COTH can be so interesting in it’s new format.

I did try succeed and a few tubes of gastroguard. Added the alfalfa just in case.

I’ll try feeding outside, maybe that will help.

I do have a back paddock with an integrated stall which is the one place I haven’t tried him in, only because the whole thing needs revamped (it was used for a stallion before I bought the place and then they stored junk in it). Could work if the feeding outside works.