Exhausted options - anything I haven’t tried?

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes Sim was like that. Except he didn’t do the jumping of fences. It is not the paddock that freaks him out. It is the gate shut to the paddock that freaks him out.

I did not train him when he first came here, I did not put see the point. He was going to injure himself the way he acted. He did injure himself by hitting his hip on the fence in one of his tantrums. He lost weight very quickly and luckily a trip to the Chiropractor helped.

We have come to an agreement, as long as he behaves the gates are open and he can go where he pleases. Do not ask me why the gate to the property doesn’t count. Do not ask me why closing a gate so he can not go into a paddock doesn’t count. This was a large paddock, a couple of acres.

Being out he will go anywhere. He can go up the driveway. He can go around sheds. He looks over the foals next door. He can visit each horse over the fence. At the moment Dodge is out with him. He happily goes in the paddocks and the house yard.

Close the gate to the house yard mayhem. If I want them contained, like next door was baling. I told them to put both horses in the arena paddock and shut the gate. He seems okay with that. Put him in there alone and shut the gate. Nope. Even with the horses on the other side of the fence.

[PaddockWood]

3 yrs and you don’t have him going under saddle. AND, how much pain might he end up in with a terrible outside accident?

I have another story. Took on a mare who’d come out of a terrible situation and was “not in her body” when I got her. That’s how I describe it. Then she started charging me in her stall and out in the pasture. I always told her I was so sorry and she never came through with her thoughts. We tried getting her going under saddle but she always had anxiety. Bareback, saddles, halter or bridle when you mount she has anxiety. She’s simply trying to communicate.

Spent so much money hauling to vets and never could figure it out. And she has terrible posture, holds her back - a leg mover if there every was one. She is wickedly smart and has come to trust (most of the time) me and willing to do what she is able. And it’s a lot. Picture the almost perfectly behaved horse. Self loads on the trailer. Hauls like a church mouse. But I’ve always known if you rode her at some point she might explode because it hurts. Probably would explode.

So she’s a pasture pet. It’s expensive. And she’s so “with it” and happy that I know she would beg me not to euthanize. So I don’t.

[SusanO]

I had a very reactive Arabian gelding when I was a kid. If he was in he wanted out. If he was turned out he would pace at the gate to come in. He just wasn’t a happy horse. Then he got a lot worse. Any little change in his world would set him off for days. Shut his stall window - he would pace for days even if you opened up the window. Change his stall - he would go crazy.

Looking back at this - he turned out to have EPM and really regressed a few years later. I think his neuro deficits were really causing a lot of stress when anything changed even though at that time he didn’t show strong signs of having EPM. And I had no idea that he had EPM or even much about the disease back then.

My horses now can have meltdowns if they are out in the summer and the biting flies are bad but otherwise adapt well to changes in their environment as long as it is not bugs. Hindsight being 20/20 I wish I had put my gelding down way earlier than when I did. The world was a scary place to him and being vulnerable because of neuro deficits was extremely stressful and he was miserable pretty much in any situation. I don’t think I would want to keep a horse alive if it could only live in a stall without freaking out.

[sascha]

@Alterration

I’ve had him for 3 years.

This is a long time. If I were you and were fed up knowing he has been unhappy so long and continues making the rest of your horses unhappy, I’d not hesitate to PTS.

[Simkie]

@Alterration

Eyes are the one part of vet med that I know the least about. I did read an article that said something like 30% of domestic horses tend to be nearsighted, and if you combine that 30% with a few shadows that could be a very frightening situation for a horse.

He doesn’t have any discharge or anything that I would typically associate with eye issues but now that I’m reading about some of the types of glaucoma that could explain it.

Yeah, I think that’s definitely one of the tough things about eyes–they can look normal, especially to a generalist, but still be a big problem.

Has a veterinary opthalmologist seen him? Might be worthwhile to have the specialist’s input.

When I was dealing with a painful eyeball issue in one of mine, Tylenol worked very well for her. She had a lot of these same behaviors.

[Alterration]

@PaddockWood

3 yrs and you don’t have him going under saddle. AND, how much pain might he end up in with a terrible outside accident?

Some of that is my own busy schedule’s fault and quite frankly getting him under saddle has been last on my list of “dealing with this horse” concerns. I got him going a little last summer with some help, but he’s still a 2 person job and I don’t always have people around so I can’t get over that hump.

But anyway yep - 3 years I’ve been trying to figure out what I can do to make things better for this horse. He came worse, and I’ve made him better, so there was some hope there, but I’m quite frankly, tired.

Yesterday was my final straw when he bounced off the gate. If he’d have had any more velocity or run straight at it instead of turning the corner, he might have broken it, which would have injured both him and my retiree (who was standing there waiting his turn politely) who really does not deserve that.

My retiree hates bugs (retired pleasure horse who also never saw a pasture or paddock before I got him) and he’s been successfully acclimated to the outdoor world 99% of the time. When the biting flies come out, all bets are off, but that’s totally fair and I don’t blame him one bit. Retiree seems relieved to be able to eat in peace today. He’s actually been at the hay bags all day eating which is not what he normally gets to do.

Sucks to have to make decisions like this, but like I’ve said on other threads, it is my responsibility since I took on this horse. sigh

[Bonnie2]

If he was calm outside and crazy inside, we would all say leave him out. You have certainly made every effort to acclimate him to turnout and you are all miserable. Leave him in. Maybe he could be an itinerant companion for horses on stall rest?! Only half kidding.

[Alterration]

@Simkie

Yeah, I think that’s definitely one of the tough things about eyes–they can look normal, especially to a generalist, but still be a big problem.

Has a veterinary opthalmologist seen him? Might be worthwhile to have the specialist’s input.

Yes, when he had his eye issue he was under the care of a veterinary opthamologist at the equine hospital. Port in his eye and the whole thing, and that’s how he got initially cleared. But - not recently - I’d have to haul a few hours away to get that done and the thought of that gives me a bit of pause.

I’ll see what his regular vet says at shot time, he’s well aware of his eye issue from before because he initially cleared him for riding. I am pretty sure I can have a good conversation with him about it.

How many tylenol did you give your horse - I’ve never used tylenol in an equine!

[fizzyfuzzybuzzy]

Kind of along the lines of vision but I’d also look into kissing spine, especially if he is an upheaded saddlebred (or that type). I wonder if he’s raising his head to look at whatever and getting a nerve zing from his spinal processes touching. Which reinforces that YES that thing is DANGEROUS! So he panics.

I’d also give that back stallion paddock a shot - if he can retreat to his safety zone he might not keep panicking.

[Alterration]

@Bonnie2

Maybe he could be an itinerant companion for horses on stall rest?! Only half kidding.

Hey - there’s a new business idea Maybe he’s useful that way! Of course, he’d have to haul well. He hasn’t hauled in the last 3 years, but I might be able to teach him to do that since the other things that require humans to do things with him seem to be coming along, just not the non-human-dependent things. I’m only half-kidding about it as well LOL

[Dutchmare433]

I was coming to suggest something neuro or neck related. Some of the words OP uses in her first post really ring true—the blind panic bolting in particular (and the seeing ghosts).

[NaturallyHappy]

I agree…it sure could be neuromuscular pain or something else neurological in nature. Is he on Vit E? I commend @Alterration for working so hard to figure this out.

[Simkie]

@Alterration

How many tylenol did you give your horse - I’ve never used tylenol in an equine!

We used 10g q12h, but looking at this, I’d use 15g doing it again today.

Pharmacokinetics and clinical efficacy of acetaminophen (paracetamol) in...

Here’s a study done specifically about eyes:

Ocular penetration of oral acetaminophen in horses - PubMed

She readily ate it in her grain. It made a really profound difference in her behavior, which really just showed how much pain she was in.

Tylenol is nice because of the good effect into the eyeball, and the lack of risk to the gut.

[NaturallyHappy]

Thanks for posting this. Our vet just had us use 20 pills(500mg) for an abscess.

[fivestrideline]

Once or twice a day?

I have a gut sensitive horse so the acetaminophen has been suggested in place of bute (for theoretical situations), but I never asked dosage frequency.

As far as OP, I’m in camp stud paddock, patience pole “turnout”, just leave him in while you get him under saddle, or euth. In that order.

[NaturallyHappy]

Ours was twice a day. The horse ate it comfortably in his grain (I love those kind).

[Alterration]

So, he’s such a puzzle.

I didn’t have a ton of time tonight to deal with him outside so after I brought everyone in, I took him outside. Had him on the rope halter and 14’ line (just in case), hung with him a little bit and groomed and fed him some cookies. Didn’t tie him because I didn’t have time to hang too long, but he was fine.

Calm. No calling or other shenanigans. Head high and looking around, but…he’s a saddlebred. This is what they do.

Took him down to the ring to let him move a little. Longed great. He trotted a little of his own accord and did some little tiny “whee hews” with his front legs but that’s normal - did not canter or do anything stupid, considering he was in all day. I didn’t ask for canter. I just kept his attention on me so that I didn’t get run over if he did decide he was afraid of something. He was not. Definitely did not wear him out by any stretch of the imagination, but wanted him to have a chance to move at least a little.

Led him back up still out of sight of the other horses but nearer the barn. Asked him to lower his head and pay attention to me. Did some backing and stopping types of groundwork.

Calm.

Brought him back in.

Calm.

So this does not seem to be a buddy-sour or barn-sour issue, as I mentioned before. When he’s on the line I am watchful, I don’t let him dink around with his own thoughts in mind because I don’t need him to be creative, but he’s also not afraid and running around like a looney or spooking.

Treated like this, he’s a normal saddlebred. Not even a very spicy one (I own another, who IS spicy and with the same treatment would be leaping through the air like a Lipizzaner).

Went back into his stall and ate hay.

This is where it feels like almost an orphan foal kind of thing where humans give him some sort of “self-control” and horses don’t. He understands being on the lead and in the lines (he did the young horse stuff in saddlebred-land). He understands that world, he does not understand self-management. I wish I had a boss-mare, that way I could maybe “re-raise” him.

I’ll see if my husband and I can get the stud paddock & stall in any sort of shape, it might take a bit, the former owner of the barn filled that whole thing with junk. I don’t think the stall has been used in 20 years.

Maybe I’m just trying to round peg square hole this horse. Maybe he just really needs to be back in saddlebred-land and I’m trying to force him to be a normal horse. But the thing of it is, he’d probably have to be a western horse or a hunter (he’s not a high knees spicy horse, he just isn’t) and typically people don’t want those as 9 year old prospects.

I’ll still get him checked out, but this gives me hope that he has some use.

[dotneko]

My Grand Prix dressage horse hated turnout for the most part. We let him set the terms - 15 minutes or 3 hours. Staff was instructed to glance to his paddock to see if he was happy whenever they went outside. If he needed to come in, he came in. He loved his stall. Whats the problem turning out for an hour and bringing him in?
I had the luxury of having my own place with my own rules and staff. He was mine and not to be sold on. Some quirks just need to be accommodated.

[PaddockWood]

@Alterration

Sucks to have to make decisions like this, but like I’ve said on other threads, it is my responsibility since I took on this horse. sigh

My heart really does ache for you. Like you said, you’re tired and I so get that. And you’ve tried and you’ve given it time. You know what is best. You have experience and you’ve observed this dear horse in many situations.

I’ll bet if the gals in SC who are dissecting horses got a look at him they’d find something horrific.

[Simkie]

I’ll toss out a vote of dissent on the “patience pole” concept for a horse like this. If he’s in pain, or has another medical reason for this behavior, tying him up to battle it out is unlikely to go well, and cruel. A horse that’s in a blind panic is more likely to kill itself tied to a pole than learn anything.