Dresage trainers could not handle the DHH cross in my barn. He required a completely different approach than their program. They probably set him back, actually.
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This. IME the harness line horses of any breed tend to be too damn smart in the wrong directions - they don’t react the way your average WB or even TB does. Plenty of great programs (both dressage and hunters) are not employing techniques that work with the ASB/DHH type. Nothing wrong with that, it’s just different.
ETA only saying this in regard to failing out of dressage school being a red flag for an ASB. I’d agree with something a bit more traditional.
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Yes. I have the info, I was there for that particular debacle because I had my horses at that barn before I purchased my facility.
So - the two trainers were at the same barn, and the management was not by the dressage trainers. I will say that the management of this horse at that barn was not workable. Ex-hunter rider owned the barn and was in charge of management. There’s a reason I bought my own facility.
Dressage trainer #1 might have eventually succeeded with the horse, but drama at the barn between trainers and barn owner meant that she left the barn. She did have him going nicely on the longe, but his management issues meant that he always had some steam to blow off. She was under quite a bit of pressure by owner to get him riding perhaps a bit sooner than I might have ridden him. To be fair to my friend, she had expected to have a riding horse much sooner than she did - but the horse wasn’t ready.
Dressage Trainer #1 had saddleseat experience, so I think she got it.
Dressage trainer #2 most likely would not have succeeded with the horse, based on what I know of her training methods and background. I won’t say a ton more about that. Great gal, not really a workable solution.
My own main riding horse (my other ASB) flunked out of dressage training as he wasn’t up for a lot of heavy contact and said dressage trainer who came highly recommended wouldn’t work with him. He actually went through multiple trainers before he got to me as well, one of whom said that he “didn’t want to be ridden”. I’ve now shown this horse, thrown a rope off of him, jumped him, dragged logs, done dressage, driven him, and just about everything you can do with a horse with this horse. Again, I’m not particuarly special, but I was able to adapt to him and work him through his issues.
But - it’s not about him. He’s a different horse.
Horse in question is not generally hot and flighty. His problems are turnout and riding. He is not running the fenceline all day. Something sets him off, and that’s when he loses his marbles. Could be a vision issue contributing, could just be that he cannot see the things that are below his nose. Could be that my environment, which IS very difficult for a horse is just too difficult for a horse that doesn’t “get” turnout and won’t listen to the other horses about it.
He’s actually on the opposite side of hot and flighty and after a few trot circles on the longe is totally done. You MIGHT get some canter and a few gallops if he’s feeling really zesty. Nowhere near the heat that my other ASB has. The ridden balking issue I believe is due to inconsistent training as well as early training that held in front and pushed from behind before he was strong enough.
I wanted to see if there was anything else to get him to go outside that I had missed. Perhaps someone had some magic key that I was missing. If he truly cannot have a normal paddock life, then I must treat him like a saddlebred and see if I can get him back into that life. Or he needs to be euthanized. I’m not opposed to either option, but I would like to see if I’ve missed something on the turnout side because I’m generally diligent and creative and I’m running out of ideas for this particular horse.
I have not yet tried to just stall him and work him. He might understand that so well that the rest of his training issues disappear because he’s not under so much pressure. I have avoided this because it means I must be diligent about getting him out and working him, and quite frankly I’ve just been too busy in the past. But - I do owe it to him to figure something out.
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I’ll try it 
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Maybe stall him and work him, and incorporate tying afterwards in a supervised outdoor “turnout” as part of his regime? If he can learn to relax outside, that’s a huge step forward. Work with him first of everyone and tie him by the ring while you do everyone else?
I’d still check his eyes. And pull the MSM - some horses really do react negatively to it.
I’d make that stud paddock a project priority, it’s useful to have in general and might be Step 2 of this guy’s turnout process.
At the end of the day, if he’s safe and happy stalled, then maybe that’s his life. Maybe he needs to go back to saddleseat world or somewhere that manages their horses in a way he likes.
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I’m going to share my single experience with a horse similar to what you describe OP. I am intentionally being somewhat vague as this isn’t my horse.
Horse is a breed with a strong breed circuit known for showing horses “with spirit”. Horse flunked out of “breed barn”, flunked out of two (at least) non breed affiliated riding programs. Horse has a history of spooking and bolting under saddle. Horse is fine in their stall. Fine to handle in the barn; cross ties, farrier, vet, baths etc. Horse is “hot” occasionally being led to and from turnout but not the spooking and bolting behavior in hand that they did under saddle. Horse might be calm in turn out for 2 seconds or 4 hours. When horse isn’t calm in TO, it is like a light switch flipped. Horse will pace, weave, scream, run. Once horse becomes agitated in TO, horse would not / could not calm back down. Multiple TO set ups were tried. Solo. With friends. Paddock attached to stall. Round pen. Paddock with run in shelters. Grass paddocks. Dirt paddocks. Paddocks by the barn. Paddocks by the arena. Paddocks at the back of the farm. Big paddocks. Little paddocks. Paddocks with neighbors. Paddocks without neighbors. Other than turning the horse out in an indoor arena or on a 40 plus acre pasture, just about every situation was tried.
Multiple sedatives were tried. Calming supplements. Vet checks (though I can’t speak to the depth of those exams). Animal communicators.
The staff cleans that horse’s stall first and brings horse back in once they become agitated in turn out or when the staff breaks for lunch. Whichever comes first. Even when horse is running the fence screaming, the appearance of a human at the gate to catch them is enough to flip the horse’s switch back to calm enough to be haltered and led.
In this horse’s case, they occasionally tie the horse. Some days the horse is only calm in TO for 2 seconds and so the horse is tied until their stall is ready. Horse seems to accept the restraint of being tied to patience poles as well as they do cross ties and being led. In this case, tying is not used in hopes of retraining the horse to be calm in TO. Rather, to prevent injury to the horse or the fences. AFAIK, the horse hasn’t ever been tied inside one of the paddocks.
I believe this has been going on for 7-8 years.
Of course I hope for a better outcome for your horse OP. But thought I’d share as an example of another horse that has similar issues to yours.
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Dangerous behavior.
Bad conformation.
Risk to himself, others around him, and the facility.
I would NEVER throw a leg over a horse like this. Even if his at-rest behavior did settle down. The horse is dangerous.
Humans go a lifetime with issues that, despite all the science in the world, go undiagnosed. Let alone horses.
I would let this horse be laid to rest before he severely hurts himself or someone else.
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But having a person at the end of the line is a different situation than you’re describing him melting down in. That doesn’t mean he’s in control, or that there’s not a medical cause, or that he can be trained to tolerate turnout.
Obviously, none of us here know this horse or what he’s like or what this behavior really is. But running through fences and gates and into walls is really not normal and sounds very out of control.
He has a progressive, painful condition in the uveitis. It’s worth exploring pain or vision loss as a cause before assuming these blow ups are a choice he’s making, and not something that’s happening to him because of something outside of his–or your–control.
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Yes - I’m still getting his eyes checked. Just not something I can immediately do. I did look to see if I saw any blueing or cataracts - nothing there - so while I’m certainly not a vet there’s nothing immediately obvious.
The garbage truck can come if he’s on the line and he looks, but he does not do anything stupid. That’s what I mean. The same stimuli does NOT cause the same reaction. If I don’t spook, he doesn’t spook. He does not react the same way with the other horses. Loose, that will cause a bolt. Does that make more sense?
And I’ve never tied a horse and let them freak out - not in my constitution.
But - to go back to the original point - I’ll be honest, I’m not sure in his current state that it’s worth spending thousands for additional exploration of issues. He’s a horse that even if well trained and showing might fetch 5 figures. Might. Most likely I could sink thousands into him and he’d be worth 4. Not that it’s the sole measure of his worth, but he won’t ever be a “normal” horse. He’s relatively normal for an ASB, but they just aren’t normal the way most people think of horses.
I’ll check his vision and do another “normal” check with some hock xrays. We’ll see if we can turn him into something the saddlebred folks can use in a kind fashion. And if not, he’ll be laid to rest peacefully.
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My Appendix QH mare who is going to be 30 in March has been lie this for years, so many, I’ve lost track. She lives at the racetrack with our STBs and loves it. Some days she doesn’t even look to go out, others she is screaming to, but pitches a fit after 20 minutes to come in, other days she’s out until it’s time to come in for lunch along with her retired gelding buddy, who can be as big a drama queen as her. I had her boarded at a friends farm one year, and she was convinced to stay out with the 3 other horses at the farm. They had two quality round bales between the 4 of them, and there were 2 shelters, but she still didn’t thrive, they couldn’t bring her in for grain because she became herd bound. Lost a good couple of hundred pounds even though she was wearing lots of blankets to keep warm, and her face was always in the round bale every time I saw her. I ended up bringing her to the training centre our race horses were at, and she was a happy horse again, but still had her definite opinions on being outside longer than she deemed appropriate. Some are just like that.
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But it’s not the same stimuli. The garbage truck is the same, but he’s not loose, hasn’t been loose for awhile, isn’t wondering about other horses, isn’t making whatever decisions horses make when they’re turned out, maybe if there’s pain involved, his pain level isn’t the same, or if his vision is wonky, he’s not perceiving it the same.
I get it, we look at that, and we’re like “stupid garbage truck, setting off this silly horse.” But he has a ton of input that’s invisible to us, and maybe he’s just on the edge of keeping it together, and that truck is the proverbial straw, so he loses his shit.
I obviously don’t know 
But a whole lot of what you describe here feels just very similar to what I dealt with. That horse was also fine…until she really wasn’t. It wasn’t her fault, it wasn’t her choice, and it wasn’t something that could be trained out of her. It was 100% a medical issue.
You’ve given this guy a very good try, and you’ve got a solid list of things to check. I hope you’re able to find some answers about why he is the way he is.
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I get what you’re saying - sometimes it’s totally medical. I think I’d be more inclined to lean 100% that way if he’d be normal in any other way. Or if he’d ever been normal. But this is a horse who had never been turned out. It’s not like we have a baseline of normal turnout behavior and now he got weird. I’ve known him since he was 4, he was weird then (I’m just using that term as a shortcut - I know generally speaking horses aren’t weird for no reason) and he was weird according to his breeder.
If “it”, whatever “it” is, is medical, he was likely born with “it”.
But saddlebreds do come with a whole lot of weird. I’ve known some “normal” ones, but the vast majority that I’ve met have a fair amount of weird. Not just saddleseat horses. I don’t know what makes them that way - they are great horses - but they do come with some differences. So I’ve got to factor that in.
It might be that long neck - less blood flow to the brain. And now I’m totally joking.
Thanks for the thoughts - it’ll resolve soon one way or the other.
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Whats about the pasture stall I suggested? Wouldn’t be too much of an effort and could work out.
I’m so sorry - it’s been hard to keep track of who said what - so if I’m mischaracterizing things please let me know.
You suggested making a very small stall in the paddock, correct?
I don’t have any panels that would stand up to him even bumping into them. I’d have to buy a whole new roundpen for it. It would have to be small enough that he could barely turn around and his stall is bigger than that (he’s in a 21x11 foot stall).
At one of the previous barns he was in a roundpen all day and in an outdoor turnout that wasn’t much bigger (maybe twice the stall size). The roundpen was better, because he could run in a circle, and the outdoor turnout he crashed through the gates and because it was in view of the ring made the trainer mad that he was upsetting the lesson horses.
There’s nothing easy about changing around a horse’s living arrangements. Even the stallion stall mentioned might need a lot of work, if it’s suitable at all. That shed might leak like a sieve, I’ve never been back in there. I just know it exists. Might have a lot of snakes in it at present for all I know. I KNOW the coyote has been living in that shed on the other side.
But - I appreciate it, and it’s definitely an idea that if I could do simply I’d try it.
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That he’s just always been this way could indicate that whatever is wrong with him is congenital. Maybe his vision is wonky, or maybe he’s got fewer brain cells that deal with “stuff” in his environment, or maybe he’s just wired to be particularly reactive in certain situations.
Was he on pasture as a foal, with his dam?
You clearly care about him a lot and I’m not at all saying you’re doing the wrong thing or taking the wrong path. The older I get, the more I realize “behavioral” issues are almost nearly always not. And while a patience pole can be a useful training tool in some scenarios, it’s also not fair in others.
I feel like the hardest thing in horses is when something isn’t going well and we don’t know WHY. 
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Okay. I understand, that it’s difficult. I would consider trying it anyways. I know, I’m not there in person to see how difficult the horse really is and how dangerous he’s with fences. But I would really try building him a small stall at his pasture.
As I said, turn him out for 10mins with a bucket of “grain”. Bring him in after that. Do this several times a day. Repetition is key. So he starts relaxing. That’s still how I would try to solve this. May take months, but small steps, smaller than baby steps could bring you success.
Someone mentioned to only turn him out after some work. If you can’t build a stall on his pasture, then start a routine like: Lounging for few minutes (as long as he needs to run off his energy), bring him into the pasture, put down the already prepare food bucket, feed him, first with his lead rope on, take him in afterwards.
Next step his feeding, waiting for additional 5min, take him in.
Then remove the lead rope, feed him, wait additional 5min, take him in.
When he’s comfortable for being there with you for 5min after feeding, start to walk further away. Not next to him, but 10m away. Do this for some days. Than start to walk further away, pasture entrance, past pasture entrance. At the same time you can stretch the amount of time he’s there after feeding. This is a slow process but most likely will work.
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I had one like this. 18 hands, so a long way to fall. One of his bolts out of the blue broke my back. He would run into things, even in his stall. He would walk over people while leading, or even while cleaning his stall. It was like we weren’t even there. Had an ophto specialist check his eyes, he was fine.
Turned out he had issues, C5,6,7. But it took a myelogram to see it. Plain Xrays didn’t show it, even the straight-neck position during the myelogram looked fine, but as soon as they flexed his neck, bingo! Pinched spinal cord in several places. We put him down on the table.
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No. He was in a small paddock and since he was a first homebred he was definitely treated more like a dog than a horse. His breeder definitely loved him and there are many pictures of her kids all over him.
He has some characteristics of an orphan foal, despite not being orphaned.
His dam also shares many of his characteristics according to the breeder, so it is possible that it’s from either heredity or upbringing. It is not uncommon to breed difficult mares in any industry - not a practice I condone, but a common one.
I nearly euthanized the whole lot today (KIDDING) as it’s firmly spring here and everyone lost their minds at dinner time. Good gravy! That’s all I needed today.
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Is it a problem to just keep the horse in his stall where he’s happy and safe until you’re able to do vet work / set up a different TO situation to try for him?
I mean, if you’d be willing to sell him to a home that would keep him stalled what’s the difference if you keep him stalled?
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Not at all. Which is where he is at present. The only real issue is the commitment in getting him out and doing something with him, and I feel badly that everyone else can go out except him. He’s alone in the barn, which just sucks from a welfare standpoint.
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