Explaining the use of various aids

[colorfan]

I would like to know the reason for why one would use various aids. In order to use an aid, a person should know what the aid can do as well as what they can’t do. What positive things can be accomplished, what bad habits to watch for, how to prevent such and how to progress. Even when its time to stop using as I am sure some can be overused but without understanding the purpose how would one know if the goal is reached??

For the purpose of this thread I am not thinking of the “how to use” more the intended purpose of the aid.

Why would someone use Vienna reins over sidereins, what would you want to accomplish with a Chambon or a Pessoa?
How does a deGogue differ from Chambon in its purpose? I am sure there are others.
I hear so many people say they don’t like draw reins yet so many people seem to use them. I suspect there are many people like me who hear the word, perhaps can recognize them, have even used whichever one, but really don’t know what their intended purpose actually is and just use them because it seems to be the thing to do.

TIA

[Huntin_Pony]

Colorfan - This is a tough question to answer, even at the highest level. In an ideal world, many of these “gadgets” will never be needed by the majority of riders/horses. But as you say, it should be possible to learn about them in case they might be of appropriate use.

Most of us learn about them (both the pros and the cons) from trainers and from other riders. Sometimes these folks demonstrate the value of the gadgets and you can ask them to please help you understand why they chose this approach for this horse at this time. Too often you will see folks who misuse the gadgets in some way; watch the horses on a day-to-day basis and over the longer term and see what results occur.

Unfortunately, the most accurate answer that I can offer is “it depends.”

Hopefully other posters will give you better answers.

Good luck and thanks for the good question.

[Scribbler]

Usually “aids” refers to the cues you give a horse, in the saddle.

What you are referring to are training gadgets or equipment.

If I can generalize a little here, the primary effect of these gadgets is that they affect headset. This can be helpful in some situations.

And yes, as with anything, the horse world is divided into those who never use them and have strong reasons why, those who rely on them and have strong reasons why, and those who will use one or the other gadget sparingly.

The huge question with all the gadgets that work on head set is whether they also accomplish teaching some level of collection.

Some trainers and disciplines are happy to just get a head set on a horse. Some trainers say they get collection through a particular gadget. And some trainers mistake headset for collection, on the longe line and under saddle.

This isn’t a dressage specific response, because other disciplines also use gadgets.

If you want to evaluate the quality of a trainer or discipline you need to evaluate how their horses use their hind end. When you find that done correctly, then you can learn from them how they achieve that.

[XXS]

@Huntin' Pony

Most of us learn about them (both the pros and the cons) from trainers and from other riders.

and good books !!

[Rerider54]

Decades ago I bought a young horse who had been ‘started’ by someone who grabbed his mouth every time he moved forward. He had only been under saddle about a month but had already established an upside down neck and hollow back. The former owner had also been dragged around while trying to teach him to lunge. He was a hot mess. My instructor suggested the chambon. First on the lunge, in a large round pen so I did not get dragged. Then when he had started to lower his head and use his back we restarted him under saddle with the chambon. It only came into play if/when his head came too high. Later when he was starting over fences(I was an event rider at the time) we could use a running martingale with good results. Never used side reins on that horse.

[Scribbler]

Before my coach went gadget free, we used a chambon on my horse for a few weeks to break a pissy head tossing thing she was developing. I also fixed my own hands which were clearly the source of the problem. Worked well nipped it in the bud. But preferable would be riding with enough skill to prevent this.

[RedHorses]

My general working use of any gadgets/training equipment is to provide a limit on how far out of the desired self carriage the horse can go.

For example I was riding a big, clunky horse who had the knack of raising his head, sticking his nose out and locking his neck. While I could get him to soften again (with some work) it was his go to response when he didn’t want to do what was asked. I rode him a few times with draw reins. The draw reins were loose only coming into action when his head got up too close to his lockout position. This allowed me to spend more time working the horse correctly than unlocking his neck. Once he figured out that his lockout trick was not available he quickly realized that he could do what I was asking.

So, double benefit of blocking his resistance of choice and increasing the correct work during a ride. I think I used them maybe three times, and well over 90% of each ride they were loose. The risk being that one tends to naturally pick up the contact on any reins in the hand and the draw rein becomes actively pulling the horse’s head down.

”‹”‹”‹”‹

[CanteringCarrot]

I don’t really use gadgets. I’ll use side reins on occasion when lunging. I don’t longe very often though. The side reins were to remind my horse to stretch down and use his back while on the longe. Usually just 5-10 minutes then I take them off and he goes around by himself stretching and head low. Now when I longe him, he just naturally does this and doesn’t need the side reins. He has no issues with contact, but I just wanted to show him that on the longe we don’t run around with our head in the air, a hollow back, or other poor posture. Even free longing he’s pretty stretchy and over his back. He’s a high headed breed, but a smart guy.

Typically I’ll just use a gadget such as side reins a few times to show the horse the way and make being on the longe a productive activity.

There are some horses that are tougher or who take more to understand the concept of contact, giving, or rein pressure. Some devices that are stready and only act when the horse is in an undesirable posture help reinforce the idea and can be useful if you cannot ride, have less time, or some other circumstance that day. But it is crucial that the rider continues this in the saddle and has an educated hand. If that doesn’t happen, whatever gadget you use is just a bandaid and/or pointless.

[XXS]

Currently I lunge with a padded cavesson, no other tools. No problems with stretching and self carriage. With the cavesson I can ask for flexion. I use lunging not only for variety but also to check the horses movement without a rider. Transitions, ground poles e.g.

No gadgets for riding. If the horse loses its balance to whatever reason
I can release my hands but not the side reins. So gadgets for riding imo have to be chosen wisely not only thinking about benefit but also safety.

[SuzieQNutter]

As said above aids are what you use in the saddle to communicate with the horse. You have leg aids, rein aids and seat aids.

Side reins are not classed as a gadget. Everything else is.

Side reins and gadgets are misused all the time, eg running martingales tied in knots so there is a ‘v’ from the hand to the ring to the bit.

Side reins adjusted too tight to pull s horse’s head in, etc, etc, etc.

[Classic]

The right gadget for the right horse can “explain” what you are after pretty quickly, and then may not need to be used.

[merrygoround]

@Salo

Currently I lunge with a padded cavesson, no other tools. No problems with stretching and self carriage. With the cavesson I can ask for flexion. I use lunging not only for variety but also to check the horses movement without a rider. Transitions, ground poles e.g.

No gadgets for riding. If the horse loses its balance to whatever reason
I can release my hands but not the side reins. So gadgets for riding imo have to be chosen wisely not only thinking about benefit but also safety.

I’m assuming you don’t use side reins. and perhaps you longe in a round pen. Longein in a round pen would preclude the horse dropping on an outside shoulder and leaving the locale as it is quite difficult to prevent that from happening in an open area unless you have side reins.

Regarding the whole gadget discussion, I have never felt a reason to use anything other than side reins, and vienna or sliding reins. Use of either requires the horse being moving forward, in an orderly fashion, on an accurate circle initially a minimum of 20 meters in diameter. !5, and 10 m circles are permissible or a horse performing first Level work and above, but only for very short periods of time.

Usually 20 minutes on the longe is more than adequate, including warmup and cool down time.

As mentioned before, cavesson, side reins, etc, are not aids, they are equipment., as are saddles and bridles. I would never consider them in the same category as “gadgets”.

[XXS]

To me it’s auxiliary reins, each with it’s pros and cons depending on the goal and the body shape of the horse. I don’t use them for riding. Lack of English, maybe I misunderstood gadget.

[RainWeasley]

Hijacking the thread for a second, though this might actually be a good example of what to use for what kind of horse. My horse has a fairly low set neck. I don’t lunge him that often and not for very long, but when I do, I have tried using side reins and he doesn’t seem to really “get” them. At a trot, he lifts his head up to avoid the contact. He is pretty forward, we’ve tried transitions between the gait, spiralling in and out, a few different things to try to get him to stretch down to it but mostly he has figured out he can get juuuust above it and not have to use himself correctly. I’ve been avoiding lunging at all for a while simply because I figure I am doing something wrong and don’t want to screw up his under saddle work, but it would be nice to be able to work him on the ground sometimes. Would he be a candidate for sliding reins? He doesn’t duck behind the contact like ever, and they look like they keep a pretty consistent contact regardless of where the horse puts his head without pulling. Debating on if I want to try them, I think my barn has a set. And I’ve heard that lunging them with nothing letting them go around however they want doesn’t really help them in any way.

[SuzieQNutter]

@RainWeasley

Hijacking the thread for a second, though this might actually be a good example of what to use for what kind of horse. My horse has a fairly low set neck. I don’t lunge him that often and not for very long, but when I do, I have tried using side reins and he doesn’t seem to really “get” them. At a trot, he lifts his head up to avoid the contact. He is pretty forward, we’ve tried transitions between the gait, spiralling in and out, a few different things to try to get him to stretch down to it but mostly he has figured out he can get juuuust above it and not have to use himself correctly. I’ve been avoiding lunging at all for a while simply because I figure I am doing something wrong and don’t want to screw up his under saddle work, but it would be nice to be able to work him on the ground sometimes. Would he be a candidate for sliding reins? He doesn’t duck behind the contact like ever, and they look like they keep a pretty consistent contact regardless of where the horse puts his head without pulling. Debating on if I want to try them, I think my barn has a set. And I’ve heard that lunging them with nothing letting them go around however they want doesn’t really help them in any way.

What you are after is a chambon. It teaches the horse to lower its head.

What you really need is lessons on how to use side reins. You don’t know what you don’t know. Your horse does not know what he does not know.

How does he go under saddle? Does he go with the same high headedness? How does he go on the longe without side reins?

In skilled hands you don’t need anything other than the side reins. Until then you can use the chambon, but as others have said above, you use it for a short time until the problem is fixed, then you don’t need it again.

Also you want the poll as the highest when you are working them. The more advanced the higher they become.

Are you saying he is up and pulled in to try and look like a dressage horse or is he going around like a gymkhana pony (over here sporting horse) with his muzzle high?

Unmuscled horses have a dip in front of you and appear to have a low set neck. With correct work that hole will fill in. You will find a very different horse in a matter of months. It doesn’t happen overnight.

[colorfan]

Yes, I probably should have said training aid or gadget rather than just the word ‘aid’.

As I understand what people are saying a Chambon is to teach a horse not to overly raise their head.
Side reins, can be used to teach a horse to go to the bit and lower their head? (in skilled hands)

What is the purpose of a de gogue? Sliding reins?

No plan to use any of these but I hear about them frequently, (well, only ever hear one person talk about a de gogue)
and really don’t know what their INTENDED purpose is.

I do know about a round pen and frequently see people just chasing horses around with no real idea of what is supposed to happen.

[evilc123]

@RainWeasley my mare doesn’t yield to side reins or the Pessoa even–she just inverts and fights them. She does respond beautifully to long lining and will frame right up. Might be worth a try with your guy. (I’m not familiar with sliding reins.)

[RainWeasley]

@evilc123

@RainWeasley my mare doesn’t yield to side reins or the Pessoa even–she just inverts and fights them. She does respond beautifully to long lining and will frame right up. Might be worth a try with your guy. (I’m not familiar with sliding reins.)

Oh I forgot to do an update here! I actually did try the sliding reins (my BO called them triangle reins), I LOVED them! They didn’t pull him into a frame at ALL but he suddenly figured out that he was supposed to stretch to the bit and lift his back. It was a total night and day difference, I didn’t know he could even move like that. We did them very loose, I actually had to mess with it a bit to get them loose enough that he had total freedom. So definitely going to add that into our training regime.

So, OP, for a horse that isn’t “getting it” in regular side reins, sliding reins might be a good option. I actually was reading Ingrid and Reiner Klimke’s book on training young horses, they prefer sliding reins to side reins which I thought was interesting too.

[RainWeasley]

@colorfan

I do know about a round pen and frequently see people just chasing horses around with no real idea of what is supposed to happen.

About the round pen stuff, I learned to train ground work before I actually learned to ride so that I can answer. Proper round penning isn’t supposed to be just chasing the horse around at all. It takes a lot of concentration on the part of the person doing it, you want to get them first to just move their feet where you tell them to (forward, more forward, turn, turn again). You don’t drill it, you try to get them moving enough that they are turning an ear in to you, head not cranked to the outside, where you can “draw their eye” in to you. If you do it correctly, your horse will eventually be listening to you so intently that you can speed up and slow down with just slight changes in energy and body position, and turn and stop with just a small movement in your position. My first horse was amazing, it was like doing a dance with her. My current horse doesn’t know really how to do it, he already has joint issues so i avoid doing too much work on circles and don’t have a round pen where I’m at right now anyways and he honestly just never really needed it. But if you learn to do it right, it’s a ton of fun and you really learn to read your horse and how he thinks.

[kashmere]

A Chambon is typically used when longeing (as intended), whereas a De Gogue is more often used under saddle - though it can be fitted for use on the longe as well.

They are often spoken about as being similar, but in reality the actions they have are somewhat opposite. The Chambon encourages the horse to stretch down and out, whereas the de gogue is intended to encourage the horse to raise the neck at the shoulder and elevate the poll - though both come into action when the horse lifts the head above the limit of the tool.

In my experience, I have only actually seen the de gogue used incorrectly - fitted too short and used to achieve a “headset” by riders who do not understand how to bring a horse along from a low, stretchy outline and gradually developing the musculature to be able to lift the shoulder and elevate the poll. It’s sort of a double whammy: the horse is not physically ready/ trained to do what the tool asks, and the rider is not educated enough to develop it properly. I have yet to see a trainer who successfully brings horses to the point where they can lift through the shoulder and elevate the poll consistently actually use a de gogue.

I have used a chambon once in a blue to encourage stretching over the topline on the longe. Again, simply in my experience I have not seen a chambon misused as frequently as the de gogue - though it is just as easy to set it too short (same with side reins, etc.)

Like any tool, both can be used in a way that is helpful to a horse or in a way that is harmful. It is my experience that in the vast majority of the time, they are used out of ignorance/mis-education by folks who see “getting a horse’s head down” as the goal, and who lack an understanding of training and physical development/ the skills to bring a horse to that point.

Another thing to consider is that many tools were developed many years ago. The de gogue was invented sometime in the 40s (I am fairly certain). Viewpoints on the best/kindest/most appropriate methods to bring horses along and develop them keep evolving and changing. A tool that might once have been in the back-pocket of many high-level trainers may no longer be seen as the best route to achieve the purpose it was designed for.