We FJ gave the penalties, the GJ took them away when the rider challenged the decision (it happened to me at Blenheim 4* and Barbary Castle 3* this year). The reverse of what apparently happened at Fairhill when riders finished and then had penalties applied hours ater.
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I opted to watch from home today instead of sitting out in the rain.
Bummed for Waylon.
But look at those Ladies taking the top 3 spots 
I am really liking Business Ben
until next year, Fair Hill
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So happy for Erin! Truly deserved.
Yeah, but someone posted another video in the comments on his headcam one that shows a different story—horse takes out flag not DP’s knee.
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From that video in the comments I agree with the 15. Are the “official” videos ever released for those in question of the 15? I think it would be very educational
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Paddy!!! :love-struck:
But there won’t be a next year! It will be all new come next year! New stars, new name, new course!!!
I braved the rain (one of the few) and I’m thrilled for Erin! But, I just wanted to say Waylon is a class act. After Erin finished and she had the national championship locked up, Waylon called out he’s congratulations before starting his course. Bummed for him and Lancaster, but his horse just looked spent.
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It’s bittersweet. I’m excited, but I’m going to miss Fair Hill as we currently know it.
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I feel exactly the same.
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Can you provide a link? I don’t see a video in the comments.
If you sort by “all comments” , it appears near the end of the list --submitted by Kayla Benney (taken by one of her students)
Jon Holling has an interesting point made on FB too;
I just want to take a moment to say how thankful I am that the big controversy out of fairhill this weekend is flags falling down. I am not diminishing the discussions about the 15 penalties, or even touching on whether or not they should have been given out. I am just happy that we are discussing penalties rather than a tragedy. I think we just need to appreciate that for a minute.
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”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹Will Coleman posted this yesterday as a reply to David Frechette’s comment about the judge’s camera angle at the fence where he got the 15:
[i]They did have the official head on view, but this was flawed in my opinion. The camera was set up to the left of the white flag, basically distorting the perspective as to where the horse is in relation to the “plane of the flag, to use their term. They argued that when the horse struck the fence, his legs twisted and the left shoulder went beyond the plane of the flag. I argued that their view of “plane of the flag” (the official head-on video) wasn’t actually the plane of the flag. It was aligned with the middle of the corner, and they too admitted that, yet still penalized me. They also admitted that the horse was not trying to run out. When he takes off, his left shoulder is 1 foot inside the flags. To go back to the head-on video, imagine in American football if the pylon camera determining touchdowns was placed at the .5 yard line and angled back towards the goal line. Would it not make it appear that the ball crosses the plane more easily from that angle?
As riders, we are powerless in these meetings. This argument got me nowhere, and the GJ and TD didn’t even look at the live feed, which clearly shows the horse jumping the fence inside the flags.
I’m upset. This is the second time I have been burned by this. It cost me an FOD, the Reserve National 5* Championship, lots of FEI points, and $30k or more in prize money at Kentucky. It will probably cost me a lot here too. I was lying in the top five before this penalty. The fact that it’s the same GJ member and TD as it was in Kentucky gives me additional pause, especially when these same men have also been officials at events like Burghley and Badminton this year, where the flag rule was CLEARLY ADJUDICATED DIFFERENTLY. I also think that this GJ and TD’s disregard for the flag rule clarification, published by the FEI Eventing Committee the day after I was penalized at KY, is worthy of inquiry, particularly regarding the timing of the penalty (4 hours after my round) and how they actually came to the decision to give me the penalty. The jump judge clearly didn’t mark me as 15, or at least I would assume that based on the scoring and timing. When I asked about this, they said the rule is the rule, and claimed that there had been no clarification of the rule and how it is to be judged and the penalty assessed, even though this is published and in the public domain.
This is unjust on every conceivable level, and it is an embarrassment to our sport and the integrity of the results. [/i]
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For reference, here is the clarification to the rule from the FEI website - posted April 29th:
The Eventing Committee has agreed that the following considerations must be taken into account when judging the run-out /flag situation on Cross Country:
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The Fence Judge is responsible for taking a decision as to a penalty to be awarded to the combination
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Knocking down a flag will not entail an automatic penalty
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The Ground Jury will only review any specific requests for clarification made by a Fence Judge or an Athlete after the penalty has been awarded
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Video reviews should be done immediately by the TD and/or GJ if there is a doubt, not left until after the XC so scores can be published and updated during competition
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When reviewing a video, it must be easy to decide if the horse is inside the flags, if it is necessary to review several times, the decision should be made in favour of the rider.
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As always if there is a doubt give the benefit of the doubt to the competitor.
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15 penalties on Cross Country will maintain the MER on Cross Country
On this basis, it does seem like the guidance was not followed. In particular, #3 and #4.
Per this, if the Fence Judge had marked someone as clear - that should be final say (based on #1). #3 states that the GJ will only review if the Fence Judge or Athlete asks after the penalty has been awarded.
#4 states it should be done immediately - we shouldn’t be seeing scores change hours after the fact.
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Interesting. I guess it comes to whether the JJ did give the 15pp at the jump or not. Maybe they wrote it down but said it was a question and they wanted a second opinion? Maybe we are lucky and that JJ is on here lol
It does seem like several of the FEI guidelines were not followed. My personal thought is that WC should spend the winter working on his straightness and these fences so he doesn’t get in the position to have his placings taken from him. Not saying it is his fault but until this rule changes I wouldn’t be taking any chances again.
Here is the pic of his for reference. I think he got lucky with 15pp because it could easily have been a rotational.
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FYI please remember - the jump judges watched, video taped and called the TD for a final decision in all cases that penalties were awarded. They are volunteers.
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I guess people worried about their income need to keep in perspective how much the volunteers make and what it is going to cost if we insist on more professionals being involved in these decisions.
It struck me watching the edit of Doug Payne’s XC helmet cam how very many skinnies (including corners) there are on any given course. The whole sport is so reliant on them. But need it be?
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FEI 548-1 Eventing Scoring, Evidence: Only official video recording can to be used as evidence. Officials will clarify before start of Cross Country and inform Chefs d’Equipe/riders at meeting/briefing which video recording will represent the official view, to avoid any misunderstanding.
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I think the riders who are speaking out are aiming most of their criticism at the rule itself, not necessarily the competence of the fence judges. I thought Will’s football analogy was a good point, regardless of whether or not he actually deserved the 15 in this instance.
Consistency in the application of the flag rule is a major issue. The European events this fall have been extremely lenient with flags and the ground juries and fence judges clearly need a more systematic, organized, and standardized approach if this rule is going to stick around. And that, whatever it may be, needs to be uniformly applied across all FEI events at all levels.
I agree with the riders, they deserve more clarity here and it shouldn’t be that hard to do.
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