"Fake spooking" spin off

[dr5627]

On the thread about the chestnut ottb mare someone commented about “fake spooking” and it’s something that people at my barn say including my trainer and it really bothers me every time I hear it.

There’s a “scary” corner in the arena and when something changes there I like to give my horse the benefit of the doubt and let her look for a minute but my trainer tells me not to let her stop or slow down because “she’s just using it as an excuse” to not go forward and she’s “behind my leg” every time she slows to look. But I want to give my horse the benefit of the doubt that she’s genuinely scared and looking at something.

Anyway I’m just wondering what other people think of “fake spooking”?

[blue_heron]

Have you resolved the PSSM issue? If you think there is a genuine problem causing her pain, stop riding her or back off the work and get a vet involved. Communicate this to your trainer, and it’s also acceptable to tell your trainer, “It’s MY horse and my horse is telling me something is wrong. I’d like to have a vet out and get a second opinion.” A trainer that gets annoyed with you for this is unprofessional and you can then start shopping for a new trainer.

That being said, my first thought here is that habit and negative thinking are creating a cycle of “fake spooking.” Especially if it’s the same corner every time and it’s been going on for more than a day or two. This is something that bothers you, so when your horse wants to stare into the corner, you get nervous in your body and put on the brakes rather than giving her confidence to go through the corner. You are not being unfair or harmful to your young mare by employing a little shoulder in or putting your inside leg on, opening the inside rein, and saying, “Nothing to see here, move along.” Young horses need boundaries and leadership.

Resistance and spooking are always related to an unwanted stimulus. Unwanted stimuli are not ALWAYS pain. I have known many a smart mare and doofy gelding who started spooking as soon as the work got a little harder or they were a little confused about what was expected of them. It never meant explosive spooking was acceptable.

[dr5627]

Sorry I should clarify - yes the diet change was a year ago so MFM is resolved and she is going very well now.

Her spooking is just a minor peek, doesn’t happen every time past the corner only if something is moved or new there and so I don’t know that I’m the one anticipating the spook and also it doesn’t bother me or make me nervous. I want to be of the “no big deal, take a look and move on” the first time past then as she peeks and shies the next few times I just sit still and carry on like nothing happened. It’s my trainer who wants me to anticipate with a ton of leg and shoulder in because she’s “evading” me that I feel makes it worse as it becomes a big deal to my horse then.

[Scribbler]

1. Yes, horses in discomfort will spook.
2. Just eyeballing a corner isn’t a spook. She may have learned anxiety in that corner. I would do quiet work with her in hand and in the saddle in that corner until it gets boring. Let her go stand in that corner and relax
3. Check for weasels in the wall.
4. Horses that are ridden with high pressure in a particular corner will start to get anxious about the rider. Horses that are reprimanded for spooking will anticipate the rider ripping their face off and will sometimes spook them bolt or spin to get away from punishment.
5. Why not ride into the spooky corner every day and see what’s changed? My good trail horse notices and processes every change in the trail, branches down etc.
6. Many coaches are absolute crap about behavior and behaviorism training. They are on a lesson schedule and don’t want to “waste” time on solving behavior issues when they could be doing “real” training. You need to self educated yourself on this and advocate for your horse
7. There’s fortunately more and more behavior based training ideas online. Best advice I got was over a decade ago at a groundwork clinic. Go in hand, put yourself between the horse and the scary thing, pay attention to the horses face and don’t push them past their comfort level. You need the horse to trust you will never put them at risk or punish them for lookimg at things

[candyappy]

@dr5627

Anyway I’m just wondering what other people think of “fake spooking”?

Horses don’t react ( spook) for no reason. They may spook for what we feel is a stupid or unwarranted reason but not to get out of work.

I have always felt it is better to try my best to continue to ride by whatever is bothering my horse. I want them to focus on me, trust me as the leader and not obsess over what may have bothered them.

Allowing them to stop, focus and look at what they think is scary is putting them in the drivers seat. It may mean going past that certain spot a hundred times over and over but after a while it is no big deal.

ETA: you may start out far away but gradually work to where you are closer and closer as the horse calms.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I am going to go against the grain here.

My riding teacher asked me to ride a rather elderly Arabian mare who had problems from her arthritis pain (I found a good supplement that worked). This mare would also become fixated whenever ANYTHING changed in the riding ring, a jump moved, the poles changed in color or position, an unusual shadow, etc… When she was fixated leg aids were either irritations or a reason to slip into a deeper fear to the point she would start to become terrified.

It FELT like she was searching for stuff to spook at, but I think her eyesight was changing (she was nearly 30 years old) and it was honest fear that she had no idea of how to deal with it.

In despair after several months I told my riding teacher I was going to count to 10 every time she planted her legs and grew roots when something changed. Get nearer to it? You must be kidding me, it could be DANGEROUS.

So I started counting to 10 every time she spooked at something (she spooked in place.) Some ride she would spook 10-12 times during my 30 minute ride. It took months, but gradually after she got a GOOD LONG look at the new thing, she relaxed.

After around 6 months this mare would spook in place, I would start counting to 10, and then after me saying ONE, TWO, and sometimes THREE she would start telling me that she had processed the scare and she was already ready to move forward.

After another month or so she stopped spooking when anything changed in the ring. She would LOOK at it at first, then sort of do a quiet snort, then bravely proceed onward obeying my aids. Then around another month would go by and she started IGNORING all the scary changes.

This is with me riding her 30 to 60 minutes a week (my 30 minute lesson and sometimes a 30 minute homework ride).

By stopping, letting her have a GOOD, IN DEPTH look at the scary things she finally learned to process the fear in her mind by herself. I think her eyesight had gotten worse several years earlier and no-one at all had allowed her to just stand and LOOK at the scary thing. She had to learn to use her eyes in a new way, and the only way she could do this was if I gave her the time to process everything.

She ended up being my preferred mount whenever my MS got worse. No matter how bad my balance and coordination got she would bravely plod around the ring, never putting a foot wrong and forgiving me all of my riding mistakes (which included occasional uncontrollable movements of my lower leg.)

She ended up forgiving me EVERYTHING so long as I did not hurt her extremely sensitive mouth.

And she ended up trusting me fully.

I really miss that mare.

[danhelm441]

I think a debate about the term “fake spook” is likely to devolve into semantics. Very broadly, I would say it describes a spook that seems out of proportion to what the horse is reacting to because it has more to do with the horse’s mindset preceding that reaction.

That’s a real enough phenomenon. So, I don’t think it’s a “bad” term. I wouldn’t get annoyed at someone for using it, anyway.

Yes, sometimes it can have a physical cause. But not always. Sometimes the horse simply doesn’t have enough confidence in the rider or the situation. That’s usually what trainers are picking up on and pushing riders to overcome.

If you sit up, keep your leg on, eyes up, and ask for their focus, you can curtail or even avoid a spook. Calm, assertive direction can go a long way with a worried horse, and it’s a lot more straightforward than diagnosing medical issues that may or may not be contributing. Not to mention, often even once you do address potential medical issues, there’s still a role for calm, assertive riding.

[dr5627]

By fake spook I mean the horse is using it as an excuse to get out of work, NOT a pain related spook or a genuine fear of the scary thing (or at least that’s what my trainer means). I just took the term “fake spook” from another thread we don’t actually call it that

[dr5627]

This was my approach with my previous horse who would stop and look at something, and if pushed towards it would spin and bolt for 2-3 strides. If I let him wait and look he would finally take a breath and carry on fine, and eventually would hardly ever look at stuff like that.

I wanted to try that approach with my current horse who is nowhere near as spooky but trainer has a different opinion, hence why I’m asking here.

[FjordBCRF]

@candyappy

Horses don’t react ( spook) for no reason. They may spook for what we feel is a stupid or unwarranted reason but not to get out of work.

I hear the “get out of work” thing too much for my liking. I agree, and I don’t think they put that much thought into spooking. Every spooky horse I’ve ridden has never gotten out of work by spooking. I figure that’s enough to tell me they aren’t plotting for an easier day.

My very calm, sensible, mild mannered fjord doesn’t love indoors. I’ve had the most spooking trouble with him when the lighting comes in funny and with doorways. We also were at an indoor that had too much footing so the owners had it piled up against the walls outside of the white dressage arena. He didn’t like the dirt piles if we came up on them from certain directions at higher speeds. And he knows with doorways…sometimes someone opens the door or walks by. Maybe this time? Maybe next time?? Who knows!!

The best luck I’ve had is keeping him interested enough in not letting too much of his focus go to those places. For him, we do best with obstacles. They give him something else to look at and work through/around.

I’m working on my own patience with him and spooking because it drives me nuts when he does it and my body doesn’t do as well with jolts anymore. I try to keep in mind, sometimes I myself will spook at nothing. Or I will do a double take if something got moved or I wasn’t expecting to see something. I’m not a jumpy person but it still happens to me and I know I wouldn’t appreciate getting berated by someone over something like that.

I also find he is usually totally fine in new places because he has ALL the things to look at at once. This weekend we went to an open riding session at a nearby indoor mountain trail park and he absolutely rocked everything. Lots of new stuff for him too, we walked under a waterfall for the first time and over a bridge in front of it. They had “black holes” that were smaller square spots that were dug out to walk through…much easier for a horse to go around. He was the only horse there that was cool with it. First time going over a suspension bridge too. He didn’t balk at anything with me under saddle and was as steady as they go with the whole thing.

I’m a big proponent of exposing them to lots of different things, that has at least worked really well for us. The other half of that which that leads into the other thing I think is important is building the trust that I’m not going to ask him to do anything dangerous, and things like those light spots aren’t actually going to eat him. I always let him inspect and take his time looking at new things, I still like him to be able to think for himself which will usually diffuse any tension I feel building.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Well, if the horse’s “spooking” gets worse I would lost my patience with the trainer.

The Arab mare was not my horse. She had gotten dumped at my lesson stable, used on and off for years, and the spooking appeared. I had NO personal investment in this mare (other than she was an Arabian mare). I had no ego tied up in her. I just wanted to have an uncomplicated ride on her.

I got to the place with her where I would have trusted her with my life.

It just took a lot of patience and time, and religiously counting to 10 out loud every single time she froze in place, or spooked, or told me that she just could not handle any changes at all. She got to counting on me to react this way. She eventually learned that she could deal with the mental chaos and confusion.

Except for snakes or anything snake-like. Guess what, I am not particularly fond of snakes myself.

[blue_heron]

You know when something new is in the corner or moved, so yes, you can be anticipating the spook. If she’s spooking every time then whatever you are letting her do the first time is not working.

You do not have to Pony Club kick, whip/spank, or yank her face to the inside in the corner so that she is anticipating the correction. There is a happy medium between reprimanding her or getting on her case about spooking and riding proactively so it doesn’t happen. Maybe you start riding a little shoulder fore in every corner, so you can keep her mind on you in all the corners but she doesn’t associate it with that corner in particular.

I had a mare (pretty dominant personality) that if she spooked at anything during the ride she would spook at it again the next time around, every time. It really did just take me telling her to knock if off and keep her mind in the arena and she was fine for the rest of the ride.

[ThreeWishes]

Agree that a corner can become more significant to a rider and they telegraph that to the horse. A horse can hear your heartbeat from 6 feet away. I’ve always dealt with the scary corner by focusing the horse before hand. Shoulder in. Shoulder fore. Circling in front of the corner and doing shoulder in. Basically working their mind past whatever gremlin is lurking. But making them focus on ME. And then the scary area seems like a breeze to just trot past.

[dr5627]

Well I suppose in trying to be brief I didn’t make myself very clear. First, this has only been an issue since we moved to the indoor for the winter so not very long. Second, I don’t notice if there’s a cooler on the wall, different jump standard in the corner, etc until after she spooks the first time. Third, I misspoke a bit when I said I “sit still”. I do do a little shoulder fore, ask for her attention on me, 20m circle by it a few times, etc, in an encouraging way but if she slows or pops her shoulder in to look I don’t punish her I just say come on pay attention to me please. If I do that the rest of the ride is fine, hence I think it works for that ride.

What my trainer wants is any little eyeball, slowing down, etc is for me to “get after her” and then on the next approach to the corner really send her forward into shoulder in, and then if she hesitates again “get after her”. She is NOT allowed to spook/peek at something in the lessons because, again, “she’s trying to get out of work”. To me that’s making a bigger deal about it than necessary so of course she should be scared of the corner, she gets punished there.

Also, of course we’re not making progress if once a week I’m told to do it one way and the rest of the week I do something different. I guess I’m really looking for permission to, as someone else put it, be my horse’s advocate and say no I will not ride her that way.

[fivestrideline]

I don’t think horses spook to get out of work - but I also think plenty of riders will create a spook by not riding the horse confidently forward and “putting them to work”. They tense up and hope to just quietly sneak by the spooky thing, when the horse really just needs you to laugh at them a little and send them forward.

While I may not agree with the reasoning (she’s trying to get out of work), I don’t necessarily disagree with your trainer here OP. Sometimes trainers have to exaggerate what they say to get the response they want - have you ever seen someone plant their hands on the withers until the trainer tells them to “put your hands up to your eyeballs!!”? They may be telling you to “get after her” because they want you to actually DO something other than sit there quietly - especially if this is in the indoor and there’s nothing there the horse needs to protect you from (like coyotes!). I don’t mind a bit of side-eye, but especially if you ever want to compete they need to trust you a little and focus on their job.

ETA: I also have no problems with walking a horse up to the spooky thing the first time and letting them get an eyeful. Not really helpful for showing, but on a greener horse I’ll let them look for a moment and then it’s Work Time.

[NoSuchPerson]

I once knew a lesson horse had an evasion people called a “fake spook.” This horse would, if she felt her rider get off balance or loose in the saddle, drop a shoulder, and spin right out from under the rider.

Personally, I didn’t consider it to be a spook, fake or otherwise but that was what everybody called it.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I officially give you permission to ride your horse with decency and humanity.

I cannot count the times I have told my riding teacher–ain’t going to happen today. Maybe in a few months (at 30 minutes a week), and then I go back to the basic walk, relaxed, a free swinging flat footed walk with the back swinging.

Without that good walk I have found it useless to “correct” the horse. Their body is already jangled, and the “corrections” just cause the horse to feel more jangled. If necessary I will work on the walk (with occasional short trots) for months on end. I am not wasting my time doing this, once I can reliably get the walk I want training something new is SO MUCH EASIER because the horse is calm and relaxed.

A tense horse gets even more tense with intimations of force. The horse is already scared, and trying to force something increases the horse’s fear. Speed tends to make the horse more likely to react and get even more tense.

Whenever my lesson horse gets changed I begin our rides with my brain willing and able to just walk the horse, for 6 months if necessary. My riding teacher has gotten used to this, and in return I and the horse agree to do short trots so my riding teacher does not get too bored. I walk, I do big turns, I do small turns, I do turns in place, I do the three speeds of the walk, and I practice halting with light, light hands.

After all this preliminary work the horse is calm, sane, and ready to learn new things and face new challenges. Go slow, your horse will last longer and you won’t get injured so much, hopefully.

Read Alois Podhajsky’s “My Horses, My Teachers.” If your trainer want to argue with what the head of the Spanish Riding School wrote many decades ago is that trainer really worth working with, especially for the horse?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I think because spooking is so common–and for a weenie like myself, so unpleasant, especially if you’re stiff and cold and the wind is rattling a shadowy indoor–it’s easy to assume it always has the same cause for all horses, and that’s not always the case.

But a pretty typical situation is that there is something scary and different, and the rider (often me) isn’t confident enough to make what’s going on in the arena more interesting than the wind/shadows/squirrels. So an instructor will encourage you to move the horse forward, successfully engaging more of the horse’s brain cells to focus on moving faster, using their muscles, rather than (like some riders like to do), making a big deal of the corner, having the horse stand there, sniff it, trying to “convince” the horse that the corner isn’t scary, as if the spooking is rational.

On the other hand, sometimes the horse is really overstimulated, stressed (by pain or confusion or even just a sudden change in temperature), and in those instances, the “more leg” isn’t always effective, versus trying to reduce the stress level.

I think it’s possible that some lesson horses learn that if they spook with a less confident rider on their back, the lesson gets really dialed back, but again, that’s not true of every bout of spookiness.

[Scribbler]

But your horse thinks you are an idiot because you don’t see the very important and significant changes to the environment. So how can she trust a human this oblivious? When my good trail mare stops and stares she’s usually looking at something and once she saved us from walking under a falling branch. So I actually say outloud to her, that’s just a jogger but thank you for pointing it out. Lets move on now. Sometimes she will turn and look at me to make sure I saw the Thing. Most of the time she is more alert than me and hears the bicycles long before I do, so she’s rarely takem by surprise.

Why not ride up into the corner or even hand walk every day and see what’s new?

[Grey_Pony]

I’ve not posted before but this topic caught my eye as I just finished reading an article by Dr. Temple Grandin in which she compares horse behavior to some characteristics of autism. In it she talks about why a horse may “spook”. Rather than my not doing a good job of explaining, here is her talk at the US Eventing annual meeting. https://useventing.com/news-media/news/8-top-tips-for-equestrians-from-dr-temple-grandin