"Fake spooking" spin off

[GraceLikeRain]

Spooking sucks to ride. It is jarring, potentially unseating, and depending on your skill set and the severity the emotional response can range from frustration/annoyance to true terror. I think this combination of physical and emotional discomfort makes it really easy to project human-type thoughts into the mind of a horse that there is a mischievous or even malicious intent specifically aimed at the rider. The spooks I’ve ridden (or not stuck!) made sense in the mind of the horse. It could be a auditory, visual, my own anticipation, anticipation of what happens at a certain spot, etc. but in time I’ve been able to unpeeled the why. I also think that most horses who do what I’ve heard termed (and dislike hearing) a “stupid spook over nothing” are Warwick Schiller style stacking stressors and finally the smallest thing results in a spook because they are really over threshold. Again, I don’t see that as a fake spook but just the way a horse is trying to cope with being overwhelmed.

It isn’t an exception but in a separate category are horses that learn a combination of behaviors like a spin and bolt or shoulder dump can stop a ride either by unseating the rider or the rider stops and gets off. I think of that as less of a “fake spook” or “get out of work” but rather a horse has been overfaced or hurts and inadvertently found a way to make the discomfort stop. If everything is resolved I think a horse can and likely will continue the behavior for some amount of time until trust and relaxation returns.

Specifically to the OPs situation, there is probably an intersection of genuine concern and very understandable rider anticipation. I admire you are advocating for your horse and it can be challenging when an otherwise good horse person wants to hold on to an antiquated notion.

[Texarkana]

My mare (half arab and smart as a whip) will 100% fake spook if she isn’t feeling in tip top shape.

Maybe it’s soreness, maybe it’s irritation, maybe it’s my bad riding… her reason depends on the day. But if she isn’t enjoying the work session, a spook is one of her go to moves to unnerve her rider. On a good day she will ride through fire for you, but on a bad day she will do a 180 if the wind rustles a distant leaf.

And if you are undeterred by the spooking, she will just find another unpleasant move to disrupt the ride. She’s got bags of tricks for riders of every level.

It took me a long time to learn to listen to her spooking instead of thinking I needed to work her through it. If she’s doing it, she isn’t feeling her best, and I need to ask myself why. She doesn’t “get over” stuff like more stoic animals might. If it’s something I can control (like tack or my riding), I just need to fix it. If there’s any question of her soundness, I need to respect that and back off. If the reason isn’t readily apparent, I need to at least appreciate that she is trying to communicate to me that she is not up for this today. That doesn’t necessarily mean stopping our ride, but maybe readjust our plan for the day.

[dr5627]

I really haven’t emphasized but the spooks don’t actually bother me, they bother my trainer who claims she’s behind my leg and getting out of work. I really think that if my trainer didn’t know this horse’s history of balking (which had nothing to do with spooking by the way) and/or believed that it really had been pain related balking and not purely bad behavior she would treat this horse more fairly about it being a genuine spook.

[RhythmNCruise]

I’ve heard a lot of people claim horses are “faking” things (spooking, lameness) to “get out of work” and it irritates me so much. Horses don’t lie. They don’t fake things. They don’t make things up. They aren’t manipulative, dishonest, or conniving. They just aren’t. Spooking is a reflex for them. They don’t choose to spook to make our lives more difficult (typical human view…it’s all about us). They don’t do things to “get out of work” unless the work is making them feel unsafe. If they have pain anywhere (teeth, neck, back, hocks, gut) they will feel unsafe and will be even more reactive.

I cannot stand to hear people attributing dishonesty to horses. People who do that are projecting a human capacity for dishonesty onto an animal that doesn’t even conceive of much less practice dishonesty. And for those that think saying this means I’m saying horses aren’t smart…I’m not saying that at all. They are smart. Very smart. They’re also honest.

[Chall]

I had an Arabian that loved to shy at things, especially with me onboard.
He would do it with his trainers. But he didn’t bother with my sister who ignored shying completely unperturbed and carried on.

He had a sense of humor and I swear he enjoyed my reactions.

That said I only saw him genuinely spook (surprise move out with a bolt) a few times in his life and it had an external cause.
So for me, there is such a thing as fake shying which may not be the same as a spook with a bolt.

I loved him.

[dmveventer]

I’ve known some horses that spooked to get out of work. It’s a thing, like any other learned behavior, but it isn’t what I’d jump to first if a horse is suddenly spooky. My horse will occasionally spook when things start getting difficult, and his whole demeanor is so different from his normal spooks that it’s clearly something else. Still a useful indicator of where his mental state is and helpful for figuring out when we may need to back off a bit. It also happens very rarely. The other horse was a mastermind lazy type who would walk all over timid riders at the slightest indication they found him a little scary. He was too smart for his own good, and about as bombproof as they come unless he thought he could take advantage. His fake spooks were also very different from his rare normal spooks, which were more in the “I have identified a threat and we’re going to evacuate in an orderly fashion until a safe perimeter has been established” camp.

I think horses “faking it” is pretty rare and there are usually more likely reasons for the behavior that you have to rule out first. In your case you’ve identified a medical cause for the spooking, I would follow up with that if you haven’t already resolved it. Your horse is also pretty young and it sounds like you may not be the most confident rider. I think there’s a good chance you’re expecting her to spook and telegraphing your own anxiety to your horse. If you didn’t make such a big deal about the scary corner your horse would learn nothing bad was going to happen. Pointing them at something and making them look while you tense up in the saddle can have the opposite effect you intend.

[dmveventer]

@RhythmNCruise

They don’t do things to “get out of work” unless the work is making them feel unsafe.

I really disagree with this. I think we should always give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s something related to pain or fear first, but there are absolutely horses who figure out ways to avoid work that aren’t feeling “unsafe” in some way. They’re not being dishonest or conniving or any other human intention, but learned behavior is a very real thing and doesn’t take that much brainpower (although I do think horses are smarter than your theory gives them credit for). Most horses will choose the path requiring the least effort on their part, and if given the choice between being working or hanging out with their hay all day they’ll choose the hay no matter how healthy or safe they feel.

[Texarkana]

@RhythmNCruise

I’ve heard a lot of people claim horses are “faking” things (spooking, lameness) to “get out of work” and it irritates me so much. Horses don’t lie. They don’t fake things. They don’t make things up. They aren’t manipulative, dishonest, or conniving. They just aren’t. Spooking is a reflex for them.

I both agree and disagree.

To me, the term “fake spook” means spooking when a horse isn’t actually afraid of the object.

Horses absolutely can learn that acting afraid can be beneficial to them.

Now, I totally agree that horses aren’t doing this to lie or be conniving. They aren’t being “jerks.” They just learn through unintentional conditioning that the spook reaction can get them out of something unpleasant, for whatever reason it’s unpleasant. Could that be considered manipulative? Maybe. But usually it’s a failure of the rider on some level. (No one take that last statement personally, we have all been there)

[dr5627]

Well if you read farther I’ve said the spooking is very minor and doesn’t bother me one bit, and the pain has been resolved for over a year and was never related to spooking to begin with. I actually think the scary corner is no big deal, laugh it off etc. I’m actually a pretty confident rider, my 20 year old retired horse has much bigger spooks and I’ve learned to stay very relaxed yet ready for a spin, to the point where we can go for trail rides alone that 5 years ago would never have happened we’d be galloping home to safety.

[CBoylen]

I find both of these approaches to be counter productive. I think they both create anxiety, because neither say “there is nothing to fear here”; they both say “this area is a big deal”. I’m not a believer in fake spooking but I am a believer in rider-created spooking.
I ask my riders to go forward, and to gently guide the horse’s eye to the inside. But I do not ask them to block that inside. The horse is allowed to move away from whatever is “scary”. Generally they might move over once. After that they don’t care. I phrase it as “allow him to spook then, but keep moving”, but in reality once you think you’re going to let them spook, they don’t.
*I also find a lot of riders aim their horse directly at the thing they or the horse is worried about. Like what do you expect it to do then? The choices left are stop, spook, or run into it? Keeping moving and aim past it.

[dr5627]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I think I’m gathering that horses don’t have an agenda per se but if they spook and then get rewarded for it (rider not pushing them as hard, rider getting off, etc) then the spook can inadvertently get reinforced

[atr]

My horse will spook when things get harder for him to do. Every time we step it up a bit in the training, we will go through some spooky sessions. My feeling is that whatever we are asking him to do is physically harder for him to start with, and he’d rather not do it, and I gather that he managed to thoroughly intimidate a previous owner with his behavior in the past and he’s not stupid. So we sneak new things in carefully and slowly, in small bits, so he gets more supple and more physically capable of doing them without getting to the point of “I don’t wanna.” But he’ll still surprise me sometimes.

Now, I also know that he has some physical issues that need regular maintenance that I keep a very close eye on. If one of these things is bothering him, then he can get very spooky indeed. It’s a matter of working out which particular thing it is at the time. Is it upping the complexity of the work, or are his hocks or his feet uncomfortable, for instance?

That can be a bit of a trick to work out and why my vet and I are on first-name terms.

[dmveventer]

I did read farther, but it sounds like the spooks do bother you to some degree even if you don’t think it’s anxiety. Any change in behavior on your part in anticipation of a spook sends a signal to your horse. “Relaxed yet ready for a spin” is kind of an oxymoron. From your perspective you’re just being prepared, but your horse feels the change and has to interpret the meaning herself. By backing off the pressure every time your horse looks at something you are confirming that there is an issue and telling your horse that she can’t rely on you for guidance. I don’t totally agree with how your trainer is wording it but I do agree with her asking you to be more assertive and confident in how you approach the spooks.

ETA I’m not suggesting all horses should just be pushed through a spook or forced to deal with something they’re anxious about. Every horse is different, some need more hand holding and some need to be told to get on with it, but in all cases they need to learn to look to the rider for guidance and that sometimes we’ll ask them to do scary things and it will be ok.

[dr5627]

I didn’t actually come on here for advice on how to ride the spook itself or whether it scares me or if I’m the one anticipating or not, I just wanted to have a discussion about a more general concept of horses spooking to get out of work, with an example about my horse.

[OnAMission]

I don’t think spook is the term; I think it’s jump or dart or something similar. They can sure remember that something scary happened I jumped sideways and everything got better for me. In the same vein they can learn I saw something scary, I jumped, nobody cared and turned out rider/LEADER was there and life continued. I think horses have memories but not future plans. As in most things horse, if you have a horse that seems to be growing some pattern after a genuiine spook I’d say examine the situation from the horse’s POV and see if the people in the situation weren’t feeding something that would have been a one off for the horse. Spoiler, it’s almost always that. They are prey animals, if they never learned what is actually a danger and what isn’t they would would never get to food or water. Their brains are constantly sifting what is a real danger and what isn’t and when you put people in the mix… gets complicated b/c it goes to accidently training instead of teaching not to be afraid.

[Gardenhorse]

Tristan Tucker has an interesting post about this issue.

3 mistakes we make when there’s a scary corner - TRTmethod

Personally, I don’t think there’s such a thing as a fake spook. That corner stresses your horse out, for some reason. If she was really resistant to working (for physical or mental reasons) she would show it in more ways than spooking at the same corner.

[dr5627]

YES this is the approach I have been thinking in my head - make the scary corner the good fun no big deal place not the bad punish place!!! I have heard a lot about TRT method but after reading this I want to try it now

[endlessclimb]

If a horse is spooking more when work gets harder or what have you, that’s not a “fake” spook. That’s a lowered threshold. I don’t believe they are trying to get out of work when they do it, they are just under more pressure than normal, which shortens the fuse.

Where I board, my mare is more spooky at the far end of the indoor. That’s not “fake.” Her threshold is lower down there because she’s farther away from the safety of her stall and her buddies. My answer is to do ALL our walk breaks down there, and spend a minute or two at the end of the ride just standing down there while I do minor desensitizing. I also make sure to pocket some snacks for the end of the ride to feed down there, so that she doesn’t associate going back into her stall with all the good things - the arena has the good things, too!

Example: Yesterday the shadows on the wall and one particular knot in the plywood were getting her goat. We just kept circling down there until she settled. For her in particular, the spookiness gets more extreme at higher speeds. I have to really focus on keeping her brain engaged. I have been working on preventing her fixating, if her ears lock onto a perceived threat I half halt, mutter a low heyyy, and if I don’t get an ear flick I put her to work on small circles, changing direction frequently. At the beginning of this approach, my forced interruption of a fixation would cause a bit of a tantrum, but she’s getting the idea now with consistency, that I need her to unlock her brain from the item she’s staring at.

[tabula_rashah]

I wouldn’t call it fake spooking but my Arab spooks a ridiculous amount when he’s being told to walk and he’d rather be trotting or cantering. His Arab “teleporting” skills are rather impressive lol. But if I let him boogie on down the trail at the speed he wants, the spooking miraculously goes away

[BrownDerby]

Many decades ago I believed in the trainer’s “just ride through it, he’s doing it to get out of work” theory. It does nothing to help the horse, or improve the horse. Nowadays, the ride starts when I put on the halter. Attention on me in the arena or trail or it’s lateral work time. Turn on the forehand, turns on the haunches, leg yields, a little shoulder fore etc until feet and thus brain are engaged. All proactive.

OTOH I have a friend who participates in Search and Rescue. They absolutely, positively do not want a bomb-proof horse. They want a bit of looky and interest in their surroundings.