"Fake spooking" spin off

[Eclectic_Horseman]

Something that usually works for me is to avoid the “spooky” area until the horse is completely on the aids. Horses are really good at changing the subject, and you don’t want to let them do that if you can avoid it. So to keep the horse on your agenda, don’t ride near the problem place until near the end of your ride. Cut the arena short, do lots of circles in the center of the arena or down the other end. Do lots and lots of transitions. Add in leg yields, serpentines, figure eights, etc. Put him to work without engaging about the spooky place at all.

I’ve found when the horse is thoroughly warmed up and on the aids, for whatever reason, then the horse doesn’t focus on the spooky place. As time goes on, the horse won’t even remember the spooky place.

Good luck.

[Moonboots]

I don’t think horses really fake spook. But I have described horses as “looking for any opportunity to spook” before. On the other thread, I think @RAyers did a great job describing what I mean by that.

They need to hear you above all else and trust you more than anything around them. Your conversation with them has to be more interesting to them than anything else in the room.

Whenever I’m riding a horse who is being a little extra looky, I have the “Hi. I’m up here. I’m going to need your brain please.” conversation. Sometimes even out loud. An engaged trusting horse is way less likely to spook at little things than one who doesn’t trust and/or isn’t paying much attention to their rider.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Moonboots

I don’t think horses really fake spook. But I have described horses as “looking for any opportunity to spook” before.

I think that trying to label this behavior is often anthropomorphizing. We really don’t have to put a “name” on the behavior in human terms. We’ll never really know why the horse is doing what they are doing. If you want results, just be pragmatic: find something that works and do that.

[Moonboots]

Definitely, but sometimes describing it in human terms is helpful when brainstorming or troubleshooting with other humans
On the horse it’s a whole different thing, and the speaking is just one more cue to get their attention – there are always rein/leg/seat cues at the same time as the audio one. Saying those specific words is for my benefit, not the horse.

[BrownDerby]

@Moonboots

Whenever I’m riding a horse who is being a little extra looky, I have the “Hi. I’m up here. I’m going to need your brain please.” conversation. Sometimes even out loud. An engaged trusting horse is way less likely to spook at little things than one who doesn’t trust and/or isn’t paying much attention to their rider.

Precisely. They need to know that you are there for them. A little bit of schooling (in my world some basic lateral work) to engage them before going large. If they resort to tourism, a little reminder with a bit of leg. I don’t know if they interpret it as “thank god, you’re here” or “oh gosh, I’ll have to work if I don’t cool it” but I find it reassures them and calmness is restored.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Moonboots

Definitely, but sometimes describing it in human terms is helpful when brainstorming or troubleshooting with other humans

Except I think that people can so get hung up on the words, they stop problem solving. Is the horse “fake spooking?” “Trying to get out of work?” I think that you will see in this very thread an argument about these terms. My point is that it doesn’t matter what you call it.

[dr5627]

I think I have a problem with the anthropomorphizing in general and that’s what’s bothering me about it. Horses don’t have an agenda the way people do. Also the fact that a lot is getting written off as the horse is trying to get out of work so it needs to be punished and/or forced to work, whereas I am more trying to figure out why the horse is doing something so I can find the best path to fix the behavior I don’t want.

[FjordBCRF]

@atr

My horse will spook when things get harder for him to do. Every time we step it up a bit in the training, we will go through some spooky sessions.

I’ve found this too. These instances translate to me to the Warwick Schiller trigger stacking @GraceLikeRain referenced a little further up.

Charlie likes to do well and aims to please. When he is working through something new and harder, he gets frustrated he’s not getting it right, which then can make him anxious and enough instances of that can end up in a spook. I know the harder I try and fail at something the more frustrated and sour I can get especially if someone keeps telling me “it’s wrong” or “try it AGAIN” or “do it THIS way”. You want me to blow up, that’s a good way to try.

Trigger stacking. I can feel him physically start to get tense under me in a case like this well before a spook will happen so I really pay attention to it. I’m not going to ask for something full well knowing I might get a reaction that I don’t want because he’s already stressed out. We try and set everyone up for success as much as we can.

I have also found that not pushing too hard or for perfection each ride helps whatever it is we’re working on sink in. I also don’t hammer on new things each ride. Sometime we go back to what we know, or just go on hacks. I’ve had more rides than I can count that the onset of a new skill was quite the challenge. Give it a week with doing other things and come back to it, and that foundation is there and is not a big deal.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@dr5627

Also the fact that a lot is getting written off as the horse is trying to get out of work so it needs to be punished and/or forced to work, whereas I am more trying to figure out why the horse is doing something so I can find the best path to fix the behavior I don’t want.

It sounds to me that you have already written off one reason (the horse is trying to get out of work) so you aren’t really trying to figure out why. My point is that why doesn’t matter, so don’t start there. Your “why” is always going to be a “human why” and not a “horse why.” You can’t apply human logic or reasoning to a horse.

Just keep trying potential solutions until you find one that works.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@FjordBCRF

I can feel him physically start to get tense under me in a case like this well before a spook will happen so I really pay attention to it. I’m not going to ask for something full well knowing I might get a reaction that I don’t want because he’s already stressed out. We try and set everyone up for success as much as we can.

Yes! And in this case, I don’t think that it is something that the horse thinks about with his brain. It’s more like an aggregation of adrenaline - an actual physical phenomenon- and not some sort of thought process.

[fivestrideline]

@Eclectic_Horseman

My point is that why doesn’t matter, so don’t start there. Your “why” is always going to be a “human why” and not a “horse why.” You can’t apply human logic or reasoning to a horse.

Just keep trying potential solutions until you find one that works.

A bit OT but this is a great point - especially for us overthinkers. At a certain point the WHY doesn’t really matter (outside of true physical pain, of course), what matters is that you find a solution that keeps everyone happy and gets the job done.

[FjordBCRF]

@Eclectic_Horseman

I don’t think that it is something that the horse thinks about with his brain.

Yes yes yes.

@Eclectic_Horseman

It’s more like an aggregation of adrenaline - an actual physical phenomenon-

Yes Yes Yes.

As much as wed all like them to think like us, they aren’t people.

[dr5627]

Is it pain, true fear, am I accidentally reinforcing the wrong thing, overwhelmed by new asks, etc. That’s more what I mean by “why”. Not a human reason of “why”.

[Angela_Freda]

I just recently saw a post about spooking by Temple Grandin
It was enlightening to read and the images she used to illustrate the points she made.

8 Top Tips for Equestrians from Dr. Temple Grandin

[Texarkana]

@dr5627

I think I have a problem with the anthropomorphizing in general and that’s what’s bothering me about it. Horses don’t have an agenda the way people do. Also the fact that a lot is getting written off as the horse is trying to get out of work so it needs to be punished and/or forced to work, whereas I am more trying to figure out why the horse is doing something so I can find the best path to fix the behavior I don’t want.

At the end of the day, every “why” with horses is just pressure and release. Sometimes what we ask creates too much pressure and the human doesn’t release that pressure, so the horse creates their own way of releasing that pressure.

So a better question is, “what is creating the pressure?” And generally, it’s something immediate… though that doesn’t mean it’s immediately identifiable.

[endlessclimb]

@Texarkana

Sometimes what we ask creates too much pressure and the human doesn’t release that pressure

I don’t know that the human always has a way to release the pressure though. When my mare is in a low-threshold state, nearly ANYthing will set her off. Birds. Sand hitting the wall. Wind crackling the barn. Shadows. A car driving down the road. Anything.

I think the human responsibility is to recognize the lower threshold, and do several things.

1. Prepare the horse for stressful situations by introducing them slowly. That means not expecting the horse who was never ridden outside the arena to go for a hack all the way to the back of the property first time. Some horses might be ok! Some horses will not.
2. Train the horse how to deal with stress without blowing their lid. That means stressing them, and not relieving the pressure until they demonstrate some ability to self soothe. Not ever taking a horse to a stressful mental area sounds great, but it’s unlikely much training will get done if we never push at all.
3. Work with the horse in higher stress situations to tune back into the person.

There are cases out on the trail, or in the arena if the horse is reacting to generally a non-stimulus (the bird, for example), that the human can’t release the pressure. We’ve got to have taught the horse how to deal with their emotions without saying “every man for himself” and leaving us in the dirt.

There are times I legitimately do not know what is setting off my mare. That’s hard to understand and deal with, other than making the ride a micro-managey one. I often wonder if that’s actually productive though, because in the end I would like for her to see things she’s scared of (whatever they may be) and correctly perceive them as a non-threat. I feel like keeping a horse’s mind busy defeats that purpose a little, because they’re not given time to perceive it.

That said, I have no interest in getting spun off should she make a bad choice, either.

[Texarkana]

@endlessclimb

@Texarkana

Sometimes what we ask creates too much pressure and the human doesn’t release that pressure

I don’t know that the human always has a way to release the pressure though.

I agree-- you can’t always release what’s causing the “pressure.” I’m glad you pointed that out.

Sometimes the pressure is physical or mental for the horse. If it’s physical, you have to address that as a physical issue. If it’s mental, you have to stretch their window of capacity, just like you said.

In the case of spooking because a horse is actually scared and adrenaline takes over (like a bird flying up on the trail, like you suggest), the horse needs to be able to release their own pressure. The human does have a role in not exacerbating that pressure with their human energy and human reactions, though.

[endlessclimb]

Agreed 100%, and that is SO hard sometimes.

EDIT: I’ve even seen the facebook preacher of being calm with the initials DE whip the SNOT out of a horse with a name that rhymes with Foxy for shying while out on the trail. I saw that with my own two eyes, more than once.

[StormyDay]

@tabula_rashah

I wouldn’t call it fake spooking but my Arab spooks a ridiculous amount when he’s being told to walk and he’d rather be trotting or cantering. His Arab “teleporting” skills are rather impressive lol. But if I let him boogie on down the trail at the speed he wants, the spooking miraculously goes away

One of my horses does a similar thing. He will spook when he’s bored. Walking in warmup is boring, so clearly there’s a monster in the tree/flowers/behind the jump standard. But if we are someplace new, or I let him trot immediately instead of boring walking, no spook.

[Scribbler]

@StormyDay

@tabula_rashah

I wouldn’t call it fake spooking but my Arab spooks a ridiculous amount when he’s being told to walk and he’d rather be trotting or cantering. His Arab “teleporting” skills are rather impressive lol. But if I let him boogie on down the trail at the speed he wants, the spooking miraculously goes away

One of my horses does a similar thing. He will spook when he’s bored. Walking in warmup is boring, so clearly there’s a monster in the tree/flowers/behind the jump standard. But if we are someplace new, or I let him trot immediately instead of boring walking, no spook.

I think this isn’t boredom per se. It’s too much adrenaline, that is constant anxiety. He can work it off by trotting or by spooking.

A relaxed horse doesn’t get bored of slow work.