Farrier A, Farrier B, or neither?

Two cycles ago I switched from Farrier A to Farrier B because I felt that progress on my TB’s feet had stalled. I’m not entirely convinced Farrier B is any better though and they are significantly more expensive. Can anyone look at some pics and give an opinion on whether I should stay with B, go back to A, or (sigh) look for someone else? I currently have three horses but I’m only posting photos of the 11-year-old TB with the tricky feet who has been done by both farriers. He’s sound but I worry about his negative angles and would like to see some improvement in that. I’m going to post photos in replies so I can clearly indicate which is the work of which farrier. Thanks!!

Edit 12/12: I’ve updated this thread multiple times now. Current photos are in post 121.

Here is what the horse’s feet looked like when I bought him 13 months ago, two weeks after being shod by the seller’s (very big-name) farrier.

LF:

LF.JPG

RF:

RF.JPG

LH:

LR.JPG

RH:

RR.JPG

Here he is after about 7 months with Farrier A. The leather wedge pads on the fronts were recommended by a podiatrist. Sorry they are cropped so tight but I got more of the floor than his leg in some of them…

LF:

LF.JPG

RF:

RF.JPG

LH:

LR.JPG

RH:

RR.JPG

Here he is after being shod for the second time by Farrier B.

LF:

LF.jpg

RF:

RF.jpg

LH:

LR.jpg

RH:

RH.jpg

Farrier A would be my choice. Shoes fit the foot better, better angles.
Farrier B angles look worse than the seller’s farrier at 2 weeks and the horse seems to be leaning on his heels. Is there a reason he removed the wedge pads? The front shoes seem to be too small.

Do you have rads from before and after each farrier? Was horse sound with Farrier A?

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Thanks! Horse has been sound with all farriers.

Here are hoof balance rads from the end of the second cycle with Farrier A. Hinds to follow in next post.

LF:

LF lateral.jpg

LF DP.jpg

RF:

RF lateral 2.jpg

RF DP.jpg

LH:

LH lateral.jpg

LH DP.jpg

RH:

RH lateral.jpg

RH DP.jpg

Well, I could be wrong but those heels look underrun, regardless of which farrier worked on your horse.

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/underrun-heels-11569

The professional farriers may have a different opinion regarding diagnosis but either way, I don’t like “A” or “B’s” work:)

ditto why did the pads go on and why did the other farrier remove them?

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It seems like Farrier A made the feet fit the shoes…

Farrier B’s is all over the place.

I would say that the original farrier is the « best » of them. The horse was sound and stayed sound - changing angles and all in such a short span of time might lead to more problems down the line.

Is there any Farriers association nearby you could talk to? Finding a good farrier can be difficult - but it’s priceless.

The farrier must work with your vet.
Why were the Xrays taken? What did the vet say about them? Is that why you change farrier? Has farrier B seen the Xrays? Is he following the protocol established with the Vet?

Were there Xrays done prior to using Farrier A? Why was there a podiatrist involved? Was all the decision made only by the farrier or was the vet involved?

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the worst is ‘B’, but A is only a hair better. Best to find “C” who knows how to fit a shoe and maintain toes back and proper heels.

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I think A 's look worse than B. The original farrier when you got him did the best job. Find a different farrier than A or B.

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Looks like Farrier A used an axe. I don’t like B’s work either, but A may not have left much to work with.

The hinds look the worst with B as far as the angles. But I think if B had kept the pads on the front, then they’d wind up being better than A. The feet with A had a lot of distortion of the coronet at the quarters and more bullnosing. At least A didn’t shoe him quite as short up front as the others.

It looks like B has tried to let him grow more foot than A who trimmed quite short. But it’s still growing in the pancake foot direction.

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I agree that A was better than B, and you may need C. B was allowing a longer, flatter slipper foot to develop. Definitely don’t want that with the weak-ish hoof walls. On a second look, A is not terrible in terms of progress being made, even if the results are still short of where you want to be.

Post #2, top photo, see the little break in the smooth line of the front hoof wall, near the top? That’s an indication of softer hoof walls, inclined to not hold up as well and especially with a longer toe. The wrinkle is also there slightly in the photo below it of the RF, but not as evident as it is at a different photo angle. With soft walls, every incremental bit of length on a flatter trajectory brings more of the wrinkling of the outer hoof wall.

It’s very important not to allow his toes to become long, because those hoof walls tend not to hold up as well and the pancake effect can move fast. Then it’s a whole other world of pulling it all back in, which is not easy with a softer wall.

Feet like that are harder to shape and manage because if they aren’t done often enough, they pancake, and if they are done too often then there isn’t enough foot to shape. And nail holes become problematic.

The second set of photos after 7 months with A look like a healthier foot, but that’s more likely due to nutrition than farriery. A was moving the foot in a better direction.

You might work with your vet & the rad machine to measure the rate hoof wall growth per month. It could be that progress with A is so slow due to the hoof growing more slowly than is normal, which can happen with softer, thinner hoof walls. Especially while the horse is processing improved nutrition.

If A and B are the choices, definitely A. Sometimes it’s hard to know when, in fairness, the farrier is doing all that can be done with what he’s got to work with. With luck the hoof health continues to improve, and your horse’s feet will be looking better. :slight_smile:

I spent quite a while dealing with a set of feet that looked worse than your horse’s. One of the big challenges with my TB gelding’s long, soft slipper feet was that they were growing at half the rate of normal. How do you shape the foot when it isn’t growing much after the last farrier visit? He had not had good nutrition for many months before I got him, and his body overall was not in great shape at all. But happily now his feet are much more normal, even if it took over a year of nutrition and farriery to get there. He will always tend to thin hoof walls and farrier challenges, but it isn’t the level of problem that it used to be.

My poor farrier has a hard time getting me to react when he complains that the horse’s feet are soft and tend to be thin and harder to do than the other horses. The only thing I can think is how far those feet have come in the last two years! “You should have seen them 2 years ago!” Not the sympathy he was looking for. :smiley:

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Can you go back to the seller’s farrier? Long term use of wedge pads is actually terrible for the horse’s heels. There are some cases where they may be necessary for the short term, but it should always be the goal to go without.

Farrier A just chopped the horse’s toes off and used the wedge to make them, cosmetically, look better. It appears he didn’t do anything to help the horse long term.

It may very well take Farrier B a few shoeing cycles to fix his feet.

I wish Farrier B would fit the horse fuller.

Maybe talk to either Farrier B or the original farrier about putting the horse in some sort of bar shoe or frog pad and floating his heels for a few shoeings?

Leave Farrier A out of it.

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Eeesh, the original feet were awful.

Farrier A made big improvements to the fronts, but not so much for the hinds.

Farrier B reverted to the original awful feet in front and even made the hinds worse.

I hope this picture shows up large enough. If not, here’s the link

Top to bottom is the order in which they were presented - when Libby got the horse, after Farrier A, and after Farrier B

[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“data-attachmentid”:10714209}[/ATTACH]

Libby2563 hoof collage.jpg

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Toes were long - they needed to be “chopped off”.

You can’t add heel height to crushed underrun heels without using wedges to help the alignment

The original fronts weren’t horrid. They weren’t good either, with pointy heel bulbs and underrun heels
Farrier A shortened toes and was working to correct the HPA
Farrier B has long toes again and underrun heels again

Farrier A improved the hinds a leeeetle bit. AT least the toes were a bit shorter, but clearly still a NPA situation
Farrier B? Look at how splat those feet are, especially the RH (white).

After 7 months (I’m guessing 5 shoeings?) I would have preferred to see more improvement in the fronts. @Libby2563 did the wedge pads come after those xrays?

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I agree that A looks the best. From managing a horse with a low/underrun foot, the piece of the puzzle that makes a world of difference for my guy is frog support.

When using a wedge to get the correct NPA, the other structures can want to “prolapse” or collapse. By using pour-ins or dental impression material, the low hoof seems to be doing well with the extra support.

This page has a lot of interesting information on the topic as well: https://www.facebook.com/search/top?..0documentalist

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Keep looking…

As an ottb owner who has a propensity for the same hoof issues. There are farriers out there who can fix the angles and make them have heels again.

Talk to your vet. Sometimes it’s an unconventional choice. I use a trail and ranch farrier that was recommended by my vet. Most of my show friends wouldn’t touch him but my horse has great angles now after about 10 months.

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I think I would go with “C” personally. Farrier A was more effective of the two, and may have been able to continue to improve - but I understand your inclination to go another direction; I would want to see more improvement over 7 months, too. If it ends up being between the two, I think I would go back to Farrier A.

In true COTH fashion I’ll now go ahead and give you thoughts you didn’t ask for :slight_smile: Will not be offended at all if you choose to ignore!

These feet are “tricky” but angles like this can be corrected. I think, personally, that often what makes them so tricky is keeping them shod. The type of interaction that the physical structures of the hoof receive in this kind of setup aren’t conducive to healthy growth: you have heel tubules that are folding under and running forward - being pulled that way by the runaway toe - which are then essentially locked into that growth pattern via the unyielding nature of the material of the shoe. Even with wedge pads to correct the immediate angle there is very little room for the heel to actually grow where it needs to.

In a similar situation, my approach would likely be to pull shoes, assess soundness when not shod and figure out the appropriate protection to keep him comfortable (padded boots, casting, glue on composites etc.), and then do everything I could do to get this horse landing on his heels. The pictures indicate a very very weak digital cushion and caudal hoof, and improving this will go a very long way to achieving long term soundness for this guy. That might include trim techniques, tweaking diet, adjusting turnout to allow for more movement, experimenting with different padding set-ups (and changing them as the foot changes), and treating for thrush if there is any lurking in what I would imagine are pretty contracted heels.

While I do keep my own creatures “barefoot” (which to me means unshod with appropriate protection as needed), I’m not on a mission to convert. I have just learned a lot by struggling with one horse and going down a rabbit hole of corrective shoeing and then accidentally stumbling into the world of barefoot rehab. I’ve since (intentionally!) gone down the rehab route with a few more and am actually working on changing my career path to focus on hoof care and rehabilitation. I think that, even if the ideal scenario (for whatever reason) is to have the horse back in shoes, there is a LOT of benefit to be reaped from a period of barefoot rehab.

Happy to chat further if you’re interested!

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