Farrier A, Farrier B, or neither?

[Libby2563]

Thank you guys so much! This horse’s feet have been a source of endless stress to me. I agree with JB that the original feet were cringeworthy (and the eminent lameness vet who did the PPE called that “really a very expert shoe job” :eek:). Seller’s farrier isn’t an option anyway due to location.

To answer some questions (sorry if I miss any), I got the hoof rads in December at the local teaching hospital because I was concerned about NPA and felt that there should have been more progress in the angles by then, although to be fair Farrier A had only done him twice at that point. I got rads at the end of the second cycle to help guide the third cycle. The vet who did the rads talked over them with me but didn’t take any measurements or give written recommendations so I decided to consult the podiatrist to get some more formal recommendations. He and the farrier he works with shod the horse once in late January, with Farrier A observing and learning. Farrier A then did their best to continue trimming/shoeing horse in that manner. (I know it’s annoying but I’m using “they” on purpose here because one of the farriers in question is a woman and I don’t want to bias anybody’s opinion…)

Unfortunately consulting the podiatrist wasn’t the solution I had hoped for. He’s really hard to get a straight answer out of. He contradicts himself a lot, even within a single conversation (like says one thing at the beginning and the opposite later). I’ve also asked him about things he’s written in articles and he’s asked me with astonishment, “Where did you hear that?” like it’s the craziest thing he’s ever heard. It’s bizarre. He is suuuuuper reluctant to recommend farriers because it causes hard feelings, although he did say when I first asked him about Farrier B that he had worked with them before and they did good work (then the next time I asked he said he didn’t really know them??). One of the things I couldn’t get a straight answer about was how long to use the wedge pads and how we would know when we could stop. I can’t use the podiatrist regularly because that one shoeing cost over $800 :eek:, I had to take a whole day off work to ship the horse to him, and I have two other horses to get shod.

I decided to try Farrier B after seeing them do good work on a friend’s horses. They have a good reputation and used to shoe at a vet school. One questionable thing they have said/done is that they prefer to “put breakover in the shoe, not the foot,” unless truly necessary. I think this horse really needs his toes brought back. I am not happy with the direction things are going with Farrier B and meanwhile they cost 50% more than Farrier A!

[Libby2563]

@OverandOnward

Feet like that are harder to shape and manage because if they aren’t done often enough, they pancake, and if they are done too often then there isn’t enough foot to shape. And nail holes become problematic.

The second set of photos after 7 months with A look like a healthier foot, but that’s more likely due to nutrition than farriery. A was moving the foot in a better direction.

You might work with your vet & the rad machine to measure the rate hoof wall growth per month. It could be that progress with A is so slow due to the hoof growing more slowly than is normal, which can happen with softer, thinner hoof walls. Especially while the horse is processing improved nutrition.

Your whole post is very interesting and I think this part in particular makes sense for this horse. He does not grow much foot at all. So perhaps slow progress is to be expected?

The seller had him on “Healthy Hoof” (I never found a supplement with that exact name but that’s what the feed board said). Since December I’ve been giving him 25 mg/day of Biotin, 310 mg of Copper, and 1005 mg of zinc (because the soil here is high in iron). He gets 1-1.5 lb per day of Triple Crown 30% plus some TC Senior, with exact amounts of both tweaked as needed to maintain his weight. Free choice hay or grass depending on the time of year.

[CanteringCarrot]

A is the least cringeworthy of them all. Did you speak with him regarding the stall in progress? I know it took a bit to get the corrective shoeing going on my horse because he wasn’t growing much hoof. So there wasn’t much to worth with/make change with. When we got more growth, the farrier could make more corrections he was happy with. So if the hoof is slow growing, 7 months isn’t a terribly long time. You should see positive change, of course, but it might not be soo drastic/100% yet.

I’d only go with C if I could get some really good recommendations and/or examples of the farriers work. Otherwise I’d have a conversation with A and work from there.

[JB]

@Libby2563

Thank you guys so much! This horse’s feet have been a source of endless stress to me. I agree with JB that the original feet were cringeworthy (and the eminent lameness vet who did the PPE called that “really a very expert shoe job” :eek:). Seller’s farrier isn’t an option anyway due to location.

To answer some questions (sorry if I miss any), I got the hoof rads in December at the local teaching hospital because I was concerned about NPA and felt that there should have been more progress in the angles by then, although to be fair Farrier A had only done him twice at that point. I got rads at the end of the second cycle to help guide the third cycle. The vet who did the rads talked over them with me but didn’t take any measurements or give written recommendations so I decided to consult the podiatrist to get some more formal recommendations. He and the farrier he works with shod the horse once in late January, with Farrier A observing and learning. Farrier A then did their best to continue trimming/shoeing horse in that manner. (I know it’s annoying but I’m using “they” on purpose here because one of the farriers in question is a woman and I don’t want to bias anybody’s opinion…)

Unfortunately consulting the podiatrist wasn’t the solution I had hoped for. He’s really hard to get a straight answer out of. He contradicts himself a lot, even within a single conversation (like says one thing at the beginning and the opposite later). I’ve also asked him about things he’s written in articles and he’s asked me with astonishment, “Where did you hear that?” like it’s the craziest thing he’s ever heard. It’s bizarre. He is suuuuuper reluctant to recommend farriers because it causes hard feelings, although he did say when I first asked him about Farrier B that he had worked with them before and they did good work (then the next time I asked he said he didn’t really know them??). One of the things I couldn’t get a straight answer about was how long to use the wedge pads and how we would know when we could stop. I can’t use the podiatrist regularly because that one shoeing cost over $800 :eek:, I had to take a whole day off work to ship the horse to him, and I have two other horses to get shod.

Well, that’s just…weird :ambivalence::concern::uhoh::sigh:

One questionable thing they have said/done is that they prefer to “put breakover in the shoe, not the foot,” unless truly necessary. I think this horse really needs his toes brought back.

Without more context of the whole conversation on this, the goal should always be to do as much with the toe as possible, and let the shoe finish the job if the foot doesn’t allow the trim to do that for whatever reason.

I am not happy with the direction things are going with Farrier B and meanwhile they cost 50% more than Farrier A!

Nope, things regressed for sure.

@Libby2563

Your whole post is very interesting and I think this part in particular makes sense for this horse. He does not grow much foot at all. So perhaps slow progress is to be expected?

How long between trims? There’s so much toe in these feet. Heels arn’t growing vertically because not enough, to nothing, is being done to allow and encourage it. Farrier A may have gotten there, but it was slow progress. I’m still curious - were the wedges added after Farrier A saw the rads? I’m just trying to get a feel for whether s/he has any ability to read the foot as-is, or really needs rads to actually see what’s going on inside. If the latter, then that’s not sustainable long-term for your wallet

The seller had him on “Healthy Hoof” (I never found a supplement with that exact name but that’s what the feed board said). Since December I’ve been giving him 25 mg/day of Biotin, 310 mg of Copper, and 1005 mg of zinc (because the soil here is high in iron). He gets 1-1.5 lb per day of Triple Crown 30% plus some TC Senior, with exact amounts of both tweaked as needed to maintain his weight. Free choice hay or grass depending on the time of year.

This is exactly what I’d be doing, so no suggestions there. I still think there’s plenty of foot growing. You just haven’t gotten a farrier who knows what to take off.

[Libby2563]

@kashmere Thank you for your thoughts! I am definitely willing to consider creative solutions, as was Farrier A. Not sure Farrier B would be amenable.

After the hoof rads, with the blessing of the vet who took them, I asked Farrier A to pull the hind shoes to try to do what you’re suggesting. It was a mild winter and the ground wasn’t consistently frozen so I thought I’d give it a shot, though I was too chicken to pull all four at once. He was MISERABLE from standing on his prolapsed frogs. We discussed casting them but that’s when I contacted the podiatrist, who suggested putting him in an unbedded stall for a day or two (my horses live out 24/7 in the winter, with access to pasture and free choice hay in a stonedust dry lot). That worked miraculously well and he was immediately comfortable and even sound to ride in the arena. Here is what his hind feet looked like after 3 weeks without shoes:

LH (not really in focus and also not an ideal angle, sorry!):

RH:

A few days after those photos, we saw the podiatrist, the shoes went back on, and I was hopeful that things would improve with the new setup and slightly different method of trimming that the podiatrist showed Farrier A.

Again this summer, when he was laid up from stepping on a nail with his LH, we pulled front shoes with the vet’s blessing. He was just handwalking and weaning back onto turnout so it seemed like decent timing to try him barefoot in front. (We couldn’t pull the hind shoes because he still had a hospital plate on.) He seemed okay for a week actually, then he got ouchy and he also lost some chunks of hoof wall. I bought some Cavallo hoof boots that I used for turnout. He was okay without them handwalking and then tack walking in the arena, as long as we stayed off the gravel to/from. Here are solar views of the fronts after being barefoot for 5 weeks and then being trimmed by Farrier B for the first time, before shoes were put on (apparently I don’t have lateral views without the shoes on, and these photos are displaying kind of small so I’m not sure how useful they are):

LF:

RF:

I’m skeptical that he could do his job (Training Level eventing, hopefully moving up to Prelim next year) barefoot, but since this competition year is a total wash between rehabbing from the nail and COVID, I would be willing to try to rehab him barefoot for a while. I just feel like it has to be more involved than “let’s pull the shoes and I’ll see you again in 5 weeks,” which is more or less what happened when I tried before with Farrier A.

I’m also more than willing to look for Farrier C but I am pretty burned out on that. I’ve had five different farriers in the last six years. The first was an alcoholic with reliability issues. The second apparently got my WB so out of balance that he pulled three shoes in his stall within a few months. Poor horse has never pulled a shoe before or since in the 20 years I’ve owned him, so I went back to the first farrier. Then I found the third, who was fine for the perfectly behaved horses but really short-tempered with the fresh OTTB who didn’t stand well, and who also left his toes too long IMHO. Farrier A and B were the fourth and fifth. I did due diligence on all of them, including recommendations from friends/trainers, recommendations from vets, talking to them, and checking out their work in person. I don’t really know where to look anymore. I see so many bad shoeing jobs everywhere. I swear hoof care is the single most stressful part of horse ownership now! For a long time I had horses with effortlessly good feet and I didn’t really appreciate how stressful it could be.

[Libby2563]

@JB

How long between trims? There’s so much toe in these feet. Heels arn’t growing vertically because not enough, to nothing, is being done to allow and encourage it. Farrier A may have gotten there, but it was slow progress. I’m still curious - were the wedges added after Farrier A saw the rads? I’m just trying to get a feel for whether s/he has any ability to read the foot as-is, or really needs rads to actually see what’s going on inside. If the latter, then that’s not sustainable long-term for your wallet.

5 weeks between trims. I was always asking Farrier A to take the toe back more but they were reluctant to take off too much and make him sore. I hoped the rads would help with that. The wedges were added by the podiatrist, who saw the rads (which he declared poorly taken, useless, and a waste of my money!) and worked on the horse in person. I’m willing to do rads a few times if it helps but yeah I can’t really do them every single time and would still need someone who knows what to do with them.

[Libby2563]

Oh and @JB, the wedges were added by the podiatrist, not on Farrier A’s initiative.

[kashmere]

@Libby2563

Your whole post is very interesting and I think this part in particular makes sense for this horse. He does not grow much foot at all. So perhaps slow progress is to be expected?

The seller had him on “Healthy Hoof” (I never found a supplement with that exact name but that’s what the feed board said). Since December I’ve been giving him 25 mg/day of Biotin, 310 mg of Copper, and 1005 mg of zinc (because the soil here is high in iron). He gets 1-1.5 lb per day of Triple Crown 30% plus some TC Senior, with exact amounts of both tweaked as needed to maintain his weight. Free choice hay or grass depending on the time of year.

Something that was a bit of a revelation for me on my hoof education quest was learning how to see growth on different feet. Often when we see a horse who we think doesn’t grow much foot, they are actually just growing in a way we are not accustomed to looking for - in front feet this is often what happens with these long, forward, underrun hooves. We don’t see the hoof getting “taller” and when we pick up the foot we don’t see a ton of wall sticking up above the solar plane, so we think the hoof isn’t growing. Adding to the challenge is that forward-run feet like this pretty well always have a very stretched white line, so the delineation between sole and wall becomes less clear visually. And of course, if the foot is shod that area is not visible, anyway. In hind feet, it can be helpful to think not of “long” toes, but of “tall” toes: the heel runs forward and/or crushes under, and the wall at the toe ends up being “long” in a way that doesn’t really look horizontally long: good visual indicators here are a steep hairline, and a “bullnose” (convex) profile to the front of the wall (both of which you can see in the pictures you’ve posted).

As JB says, there really is a ton of toe in these feet - but my guess is that it’s both perhaps challenging to see the growth if you’re not practiced at looking at this kind of foot, and that the white line has distorted, which likely means that even if the farrier is bringing the toe back to the white line, they are not able to get on top of it. I think JB’s thoughts on getting a sense of how adept Farrier A is at locating internal anatomy without the use of rads is really key. Rads are never a bad idea (in theory, in financial reality this may be another story!), but even in feet like this that are quite distorted, someone who is confident in mapping internal structures should be able to make useful trimming decisions without needing to rely only on radiographs. Especially since relatively recent rads already exist - that should give enough info, combined with looking at the hoof in hand, to make good headway with these feet.

Great job on the diet!

[Libby2563]

@kashmere, that makes a lot of sense! Do you have any suggestions on how I could “get a sense of how adept Farrier A [or potential Farrier C] is at locating internal anatomy without the use of rads”?

[kashmere]

Oh I made that last post before seeing the pictures!

So are those pictures from this last winter? Or from this summer with the most recent shoe pull? Is he shod currently? Forgive if I’ve got it mixed up - I am legitimately terrible at keeping timelines straight in my head (also my computer is being REAL touchy right now and I can’t go look at your OP)

The lateral views of the hinds look much, much better than then the shod versions! And the solar views of the fronts - while there are improvements to be made - are much healthier than I imagine the feet under the shoeing set ups looked.

And YES! You are so, so right about barefoot transition being more than pulling shoes and then hoping for the best. I feel like this is the single biggest cause of folks deciding “barefoot” isn’t for them/their horses. It is a transition period at the very minimum, and often involves quite a lot of effort up front.

[Libby2563]

@kashmere

Oh I made that last post before seeing the pictures!

So are those pictures from this last winter? Or from this summer with the most recent shoe pull? Is he shod currently? Forgive if I’ve got it mixed up - I am legitimately terrible at keeping timelines straight in my head (also my computer is being REAL touchy right now and I can’t go look at your OP)

The lateral views of the hinds look much, much better than then the shod versions! And the solar views of the fronts - while there are improvements to be made - are much healthier than I imagine the feet under the shoeing set ups looked.

And YES! You are so, so right about barefoot transition being more than pulling shoes and then hoping for the best. I feel like this is the single biggest cause of folks deciding “barefoot” isn’t for them/their horses. It is a transition period at the very minimum, and often involves quite a lot of effort up front.

Sorry, I know I have posted a million pics now and it’s probably VERY confusing. The barefoot hind pics are from January of this year and the barefoot front pics are from June of this year. Both were after 3-5 weeks without shoes.

[kashmere]

@Libby2563

@kashmere, that makes a lot of sense! Do you have any suggestions on how I could “get a sense of how adept Farrier A [or potential Farrier C] is at locating internal anatomy without the use of rads”?

This is a little like a “Who’s On First” situation now :lol:

For the above, though - I would just ask them if they could explain to you how they are deciding where to bring the toe to, can they show you on the hoof what landmarks they are using to guide their decisions, what other factors are involved for them aside from just internal anatomy, etc. The answer I would be looking for would involve: a) a willingness to discuss and show you! (in my mind, this is so, so important), and b) a discussion of how they locate P3/coffin bone/pedal bone via external landmarks, how they use that information to see where ideal breakover should occur, and then what goes into their decisions in terms of the changes they can make during any given trim to get closer to that ideal while preserving horse comfort.

I would be concerned if the discussion was solely about trimming to white line, or relying on the coronary band for most of their information - these are often cited as landmarks, and they can and do give useful information, but they are also highly mobile and prone to distortion, so are not reliable for forming the basis of one’s vision of the internal anatomy. Obviously, a huge red flag would be an unwillingness to share this info with you.

[IPEsq]

My friend’s TB/Dutch cross has the most platter like front feet I’ve seen (and I’ve seen some platter feet!). He had a pasture injury and was laid up for some time over one winter. Just normal turnout. Shoes were pulled, and by and large he self trimmed himself out of those platter feet by gradually wearing down his toes (and also being able to stimulate the back of the foot) to a point where when shoes went back on, the farrier (new farrier too) had an easier time keeping them back where they belonged. I think the unshod hind pictures look so much better than any of the shod ones for your horse. So, maybe some barefoot rehab would not be a bad idea if you can keep him comfortable. What also helped this horse was nutrition. He’d been on farrier’s formula for forever, but she switched to an amino acid supplement and flax. You could also try MSM (it tended to upset the digestion of this horse). It gave him a better quality hoof to work with. His feet will never be perfect, but the angles and sole are so much better.

To the extent you can’t trim the toe back enough at any given trim, I do agree with using the shoe placement and type to help the breakover if you are going to go with shoes rather than barefoot. You can roll the front of the shoe and set it back a bit. And sometimes this helps them slowly wear their toes down a bit more on their own. You’ve got to shoe the rear and quarters full enough to give the hoof somewhere to grow other than forward.

[No1]

@JB

Toes were long - they needed to be “chopped off”.

You can’t add heel height to crushed underrun heels without using wedges to help the alignment

The original fronts weren’t horrid. They weren’t good either, with pointy heel bulbs and underrun heels
Farrier A shortened toes and was working to correct the HPA
Farrier B has long toes again and underrun heels again

Farrier A improved the hinds a leeeetle bit. AT least the toes were a bit shorter, but clearly still a NPA situation
Farrier B? Look at how splat those feet are, especially the RH (white).

After 7 months (I’m guessing 5 shoeings?) I would have preferred to see more improvement in the fronts. @Libby2563 did the wedge pads come after those xrays?

Nope.

Wedge pads actually crush heels. The way to encourage heel growth is to provide frog support and float the heels to allow them to grow down.

I’ll link to two articles at the bottom, if you are interested.

I’m kind of giving the original farrier a bit of leeway, as I have no idea what the horse’s feet looked like before, the horse was a few weeks into his shoeing cycle (according to OP), and at least the horse appears to have on a big enough shoe to fit the foot.

Farrier A did a short cut hack job. The goal is to bring break over back, not see how small you can make the foot and then wedge it up to make it kind of look reasonable. If a farrier did that to my horse, he would be gone ASAP.

Farrier B is also getting a bit of leeway from me as he took the horse out of the wedge pads and the shape of the feet doesn’t look any worse. He may at least have a plan but with horse feet, gradual changes may take a few months to show up.

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/hea…un-heels-11569
https://thehorse.com/162245/shoeing-…-heeled-horse/

[No1]

@kashmere

I think I would go with “C” personally. Farrier A was more effective of the two, and may have been able to continue to improve - but I understand your inclination to go another direction; I would want to see more improvement over 7 months, too. If it ends up being between the two, I think I would go back to Farrier A.

In true COTH fashion I’ll now go ahead and give you thoughts you didn’t ask for Will not be offended at all if you choose to ignore!

These feet are “tricky” but angles like this can be corrected. I think, personally, that often what makes them so tricky is keeping them shod. The type of interaction that the physical structures of the hoof receive in this kind of setup aren’t conducive to healthy growth: you have heel tubules that are folding under and running forward - being pulled that way by the runaway toe - which are then essentially locked into that growth pattern via the unyielding nature of the material of the shoe. Even with wedge pads to correct the immediate angle there is very little room for the heel to actually grow where it needs to.

In a similar situation, my approach would likely be to pull shoes, assess soundness when not shod and figure out the appropriate protection to keep him comfortable (padded boots, casting, glue on composites etc.), and then do everything I could do to get this horse landing on his heels. The pictures indicate a very very weak digital cushion and caudal hoof, and improving this will go a very long way to achieving long term soundness for this guy. That might include trim techniques, tweaking diet, adjusting turnout to allow for more movement, experimenting with different padding set-ups (and changing them as the foot changes), and treating for thrush if there is any lurking in what I would imagine are pretty contracted heels.

While I do keep my own creatures “barefoot” (which to me means unshod with appropriate protection as needed), I’m not on a mission to convert. I have just learned a lot by struggling with one horse and going down a rabbit hole of corrective shoeing and then accidentally stumbling into the world of barefoot rehab. I’ve since (intentionally!) gone down the rehab route with a few more and am actually working on changing my career path to focus on hoof care and rehabilitation. I think that, even if the ideal scenario (for whatever reason) is to have the horse back in shoes, there is a LOT of benefit to be reaped from a period of barefoot rehab.

Happy to chat further if you’re interested!

This!

If the horse has any time off or you aren’t in a rush with him, pulling shoes and getting trimmed regularly is great for feet. Mine are shod most of the year, for riding, then get shoes pulled when they are on holiday in the fall or winter. Soft rides can help with the transition to barefoot in thin soled Thoroughbreds.

Edit to add: My well respected sport horse vet says if you can’t commit to 3 months with no shoes, it’s best to not do it. It takes that long for the foot to adapt and to really see changes.

Soft rides in the transition period provide some frog support with their basic insert. I’m not familiar enough with the other boots to know if they do or do not. Painting the feet with Keratex or similar also helps.

[JB]

@No1@all

Nope.

Wedge pads actually crush heels.

Improperly used wedges, used too long, crush heels.

Proper use has fixed more crushed heels than I can count.

The way to encourage heel growth is to provide frog support and float the heels to allow them to grow down.

That’s one way to do it. It’s not the only way

I’m kind of giving the original farrier a bit of leeway, as I have no idea what the horse’s feet looked like before, the horse was a few weeks into his shoeing cycle (according to OP), and at least the horse appears to have on a big enough shoe to fit the foot.

Farrier A did a short cut hack job. The goal is to bring break over back, not see how small you can make the foot and then wedge it up to make it kind of look reasonable. If a farrier did that to my horse, he would be gone ASAP.

Farrier B is also getting a bit of leeway from me as he took the horse out of the wedge pads and the shape of the feet doesn’t look any worse. He may at least have a plan but with horse feet, gradual changes may take a few months to show up.

You honestly can’t see how much worse the shape of the feet are with Farrier B, compared to A? You honestly don’t think the RH is worse with B than with A?

https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/hea…un-heels-11569

Doesn’t even mention wedges, much less that they are bad

https://thehorse.com/162245/shoeing-…-heeled-horse/

Thanks for proving my point :winkgrin: Picture and all :lol:
“While some farriers shy away from raising the heel because it increases loading at the back of the foot, “used in conjunction with digital support (i.e., pads) as a temporary measure, it can be successful,” said Curtis.”

[No1]

Again. Nope.

In my first post I actually said that there were some reasons to use wedge pads for the short term but that the goal should always be to move the horse out of wedge pads.

If, after 7 months, Farrier A was unable to do that, he wasn’t getting the job done. Also, in that article, it clearly states that wedge pads should be used in conjunction with frog support for correcting underrun heels.

Again, the goal should not be to see how small you can make the feet, but to change the balance of the feet.

I’m not even going to comment on the rest. I think I’ve stated my opinion very clearly on what I think of the shoeing jobs. At this point, continuing would just be beating a dead horse :ambivalence:

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I always use the term “back up the toe” because you’re not taking toe from the bottom of the foot… you’re removing it from the front and moving the toe back. If you don’t back them up to the white line every single trim they continue to run forward taking the heels with them and thinning out the sole in the process. In the case of these feel the white line at the toe is probably stretched. If that’s the case, then you would need to take them back to just behind the white line. You can also look up some hoof mapping videos on youtube. ELPO has some really good ones. They will help you understand where the land marks are and where the distortions are on these feet.

Here’s a quick one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfEzM_SPemQ

and this one is longer but he does several feet, some with distortions similar to what you’re dealing with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK17KR_jjjo

Also taking a look at the diet can help a lot and many times just lowering the starch/sugar and supplementing with copper and zinc will help the horse to grow a stronger laminar connection and healthier strong hoof wall.

[JB]

@No1@all

Again. Nope.

In my first post I actually said that there were some reasons to use wedge pads for the short term but that the goal should always be to move the horse out of wedge pads.

I was addressing your reply to my comment of “You can’t add heel height to crushed underrun heels without using wedges to help the alignment”

You said flat out “Nope Wedge pads actually crush heels.” You didn’t give context, and I certainly didn’t remember I had already replied to you 12 HOURS earlier, nor did I scroll back to see if you had already replied. I was addressing this comment, as stated

If, after 7 months, Farrier A was unable to do that, he wasn’t getting the job done.

The wedges were added by the podiatrist after the rads were taken. Timeline wrt Farrier A? Not sure, only that they were added in December, I assume continued by Farrier A, don’t know how many cycles

Also, in that article, it clearly states that wedge pads should be used in conjunction with frog support for correcting underrun heels.

Yep, that’s what I quoted, in reply to your statement that “wedges crush heels”

Again, the goal should not be to see how small you can make the feet, but to change the balance of the feet.

Absolutely, the goal should always be to correct the balance of the feet.

[JB]

@BoyleHeightsKid

I always use the term “back up the toe” because you’re not taking toe from the bottom of the foot… you’re removing it from the front and moving the toe back. If you don’t back them up to the white line every single trim they continue to run forward taking the heels with them and thinning out the sole in the process. In the case of these feel the white line at the toe is probably stretched. If that’s the case, then you would need to take them back to just behind the white line. You can also look up some hoof mapping videos on youtube. ELPO has some really good ones. They will help you understand where the land marks are and where the distortions are on these feet.

Yep, not only stretched WL can happen, but that sole and frog can stretch forward too, and if you’re never finding the true apex of the frog, you’re always going to think there’s no more, or not as much, toe to back up. My last CJF certainly couldn’t figure that out, and he gave me the same excuse several times when I asked him about long toes - “can’t shorten them any more without making him sore”. Got a new farrier, backed those toes up, no sore horse, go figure!