Ugh! It’s so frustrating! That’s what drove me to learn more and learn to trim mine on my own.
@Libby2563 man I totally understand how frustrating this all is!! I also would say farrier A over farrier B. I understand your hesitation to find a farrier C. Farrier shopping is hands down the worst plus so many factors.
I know you spent a lot with the one podiatrist. But maybe worth a second expert opinion? You could try the one I was going to use (it’s photos and video only.)
Or there is one in Colorado that everyone absolutely raves about. She’s super nice and clear. She might even to do it for free or at least very cheap. She wants to help people. Let me know if you want that information. (And if you don’t want another expert opinion thrown in the mix, I totally would understand!!)
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Same. I even learned to shoe back in my 20’s because I couldn’t stand the long toes, and what a journey that has been! Now I go to way more trouble to keep mine barefoot than I did to keep them shod, and it’s completely worth it.
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This is a great article by Vance Glenn on the things that can contribute to the long toe/underrun heel epidemic I see all over the place… especially in TB’s
https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/hea…un-heels-11569
He uses a heart bar to help this horse but those feet are pretty drastic. He explains how getting the severe pressure off the heels and on to the frog helps to get them to unfold. One misunderstanding about underrun heels is that they are low and there is not enough heel to trim, then don’t trim them… the heels are there and they are TOO LONG but are growing in the wrong direction, usually forward following the toes.
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I think the long toes (run out toes) are from the sole collapsing, and that’s due to peripheral loading. Backing up the toes makes the hoof look better, but doesn’t seem to help with the collapse. In theory, frog/sole support should help, but I’m not convinced that it doesn’t just further protect the hoof which then gets weaker, thereby facilitating the collapse?
What happens probably depends on how strong the hoof was when the shoes went on, the environment, and how long the shoes stay on.
I’ve been nailing winter shoes on a strong bare hoof in December, resetting mid February (mostly just setting back and leaving the overhanging toe) and then pulling the shoes in March, no trim, and riding them out barefoot. One of them still has some wall here 5 months later, one has his walls worn off flush, both are still sound on the gravel roads.
I wish I had a bigger sample size.
They both start running out and losing their cups a few weeks after I nail the shoes on, but the added wall and sole (from lack of wear) seems to make up for it until I pull the shoes in March.
I think the peripheral loading contributes, but I also believe, especially after what I’ve seen with mine is that a strong laminar connection is so important. With a hoof healthy diet I’ve seen a huge improvement with mine. I’ve also gotten comfortable with how far back I can bring the toe without making them sore. Even my pony who can be laminitic (and did rotate a bit from some winter laminitis) does much better (and is very happy right now) unloading the wall and keeping her heels down and distributing the weight evenly across the back of her foot.
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Go to the American Farrier’s Association and find a Certified Journeyman Farrier. The will have the education and experience to know how to do what is best for your horse. Pictures can only tell someone so much, and although some people on the forums are well educated in vet and farrier work, most are not professionals and that is what you need.
Many may not be professionals but have a ton of experience and can help OP decide which direction they want to go.
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There’s a difference between protection, and support. Properly applied pads can provide enough frog support to start (hopefully) stimulating a healthier DC and whole back of the foot, without applying too much as to be uncomfortable. I agree that it’s not always just about backing the toes up. You have to be aware of the health of the back of the foot onto which you’re forcing more weight. It doesn’t do any good to have a “proper toe length” if you’re just dumping weight onto heels that are not capable of taking it.
IME, toes getting long and longer are what precedes the sole stretch and “collapse”. But then it can get into a circle of influence.
A CJF filled my last barn with LTLH horses. The ones who fared better were barefoot and able to wear their toes enough while working on bluestone footing.
Letters and certifications don’t mean everything :no:
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I am usually the last person to disagree with this kind of advice - and I don’t actually fully disagree with it, in the sense that finding someone who is experienced and successful in fixing the issues your horse has is an excellent idea - but I will say that I have not personally had luck with traditionally practicing farriers when it comes to rehabbing feet and successfully addressing distortions - especially long, run forward feet. Are there such farriers out there? For sure, but I don’t think the APF or CJF designations are going to distinguish them for you.
And truly I do not mean to say you should listen to me, a stranger on the internet, for your hoofcare advice. All of my thoughts are given with good intention and they are well reasoned and backed up by theory and (limited!) personal practical experience with rehab - but all said and done, I am still early on in my pro journey and I’ve never seen your horse’s feet in person! I just think it’s more important to find someone who is experienced and successful in rehabbing the issues you’re working with than to look for traditional farrier credentials as an indicator that they will be able to help.
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Yes, the point really is - just because they have letters after their name, that doesn’t mean they do good work. A non-certified farrier did a much better job than the CJF. Still not great, but loads of improvement.
Look beyond letters, look beyond lack of letters, and find out who does good work. And to know that,you have to have a reasonably good idea what “good work” means.
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Thank you for such an interesting and informative post, OP. I have followed other LFLH posts in the past but find the pictures and responses particularly educational this time.
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I’ve also had plenty of CJF’s seriously screw up my horse’ feet… and then get PO’d when I started asking questions. Anyone can slap a sign on their truck and call themselves a farrier, it’s good to educate yourself so that you know if your professional is benefiting your horse… or not.
For about 5 years (a while back) I got into the habit of taking photo’s of my old mans feet so that I could compare them… I had quite a library and was amazed at how much his feet could change in just 6 weeks… I got out of that habit and should start it up again.
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Although I think Farrier B did the worst job, I would not be happy with ANY of these feet. If it were my horse I’d be shopping for a new farrier, or in my case, a new barefoot trimmer. I feel for you. I just fired my second trimmer in a year.
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Thank you all so much for your continued thoughts! I just got assigned a time-sensitive project at work so I may not be posting much this week but I am reading all the replies carefully.
That is the part I really struggle with! I was blessed with healthy hooves most of my horse owning life (and probably also some blissful ignorance) but in the past couple of years I’ve had three horses with some degree of LTLH so I have done a lot of reading about hoof care/balance. I’d already read every article posted in this thread, and many more. I’ve read many relevant threads that have come up on COTH and gone back to read old ones. I’m really trying to do the best for my horses! I feel like I have a reasonable theoretical understanding of how LTLH is supposed to be corrected, but in practice I can’t watch a farrier trim and know if they’re doing it right. I’m also not sure how much progress is reasonable to expect at what pace. Shoe size/placement I can judge better then the trim. But even if I did have a perfect theoretical understanding, I can’t make a farrier do it correctly if they don’t know how. Even involving another vet feels sort of pointless unless I get the right farrier to actually do the work. I totally see why people end up learning to trim themselves! I would love to, but it’s not really a short-term solution and I wouldn’t trust myself to nail a shoe.
Whenever I’m out and about at other barns/shows I notice good and bad shoeing jobs (more bad, honestly). I try to ask people who their farriers are and file the info away for later. Unfortunately I’ve found, having both types of horses at the same time, that there are farriers who can maintain a healthy foot perfectly well but can’t seem to correct a LTLH one. I can ask reasonably intelligent questions and judge whether the answers make sense, but words and actions don’t always align. Personal recommendations have been hit or miss.
Oh and yeah, I have used CJFs who did not keep my horses healthy/happy and seen CJFs do terrible work on other people’s horses, so unfortunately I know I can’t rely on certifications alone. Actually Farrier B is a CJF and even has some rare specialized endorsements! On paper they sound really excellent. In practice, I am not very happy, so I started this thread to see if my opinion on their work was remotely accurate.
Farrier B is supposed to come next Friday and I don’t know what to do at this point. Cancel on them and see if Farrier A will come back? Try to find someone new in the next week and a half? I did make an appointment with a lameness vet who also trained as a farrier for next week, so I can get updated rads and some advice, but I do still need a good farrier to do the actual work on this horse and my other two. I’ll ask the vet for a recommendation but I don’t want to count on whoever they recommend being able to shoe my three horses immediately. Also it’s quite possible the vet will recommend Farrier B since I know they’ve worked together in the past. Sigh.
@Libby2563 if you haven’t been through this list yet, call anyone within 6-ish hours. You never know who might have a monthly day-long trip around, or know someone not on the list but is still good
http://ehoofcarecom.ipage.com/suppor…pomemlist.html
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Another good resource to check:
https://progressivehoofcare.org/directory/
If you don’t see anyone directly in your area you can get in touch with the org and see if they can point you to someone who goes your way.
When I had a horse with problematic feet I tried a bunch of farriers. Had to survive the farrier-vet disputes where the vet says “do this” and the farrier says “cant” and the vet say “sure you can”. :no:
What ultimately worked the best was to find a vet that I trusted and then use a farrier he worked well with. There was still some trial and error to find the right set up for him, but we did find a way to keep him sound for years. The solution was not textbook, but the horse let us know what worked for him. The other key ingredient was having professionals who would speak with me and explain what they were seeing and why they were doing things. I needed to be comfortable asking “why or why not…?” and getting a reasoned answer at the beginning and when there was a change. (And I did not second guess and try to tell the farrier what to do. Just asked for information. If I had been uncomfortable with the answers of the vet/farrier team, I would have thanked them and changed professionals)
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Well said! The phrase “The solution was not textbook” should probably be stamped on the forehead of the OP’s horse. Had I not been able to have a lameness vet and find a farrier who both think waaaay outside the box, my horse might not be here today, eyes bright, ears forward, glistening coat:)
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From my very recent experience, I have to agree with the statement that it can be really hard to correct the angles when the hoof is shod.
Past experience: I had a farrier that worked with several of my horses over 19 years. I got a new horse 5ish years ago with problem feet. He worked on correcting them for 2 years and we really didn’t make much positive progress. I believe age and a hurting body made it difficult for him to work on a horse that had a body that hurt because his feet were soooo bad. I hired a new farrier. He got the horse more sound than he had ever been in one shoeing and continued to make improvements in the horses hooves. In March I decided to pull hind shoes on both of my geldings and cross my fingers that they would manage ok (if not the shoes would go back on). I was very careful about where I rode for the first 15 weeks and then I began to up the mileage and to up the difficulty of the surfaces. So far I am REALLY happy with how they have changed and with how well they are dealing with the lack of shoes. The one huge benefit of no shoes is that I can do a small amount of rasping in between visits to keep the foot in good shape. 6 months in and the hooves are looking great. I am hoping that another 6 months and the hooves will be fabulous.
I may try pulling front shoes this coming March. One will most likely do well. The other has flatter hooves and I’m not sure he would be sound in the pasture without them.
