Farrier A, Farrier B, or neither?

Shoes make it the EASIEST to correct angles, as you can use set-back shoes, shoes with rockers, wedge shoes or pads, to affect immediate and greater angle changes than trimming alone. Farriers do this all the time.

That doesn’t mean you HAVE to use those things, and there are certainly cases where trimming every 2 weeks can make faster progress. You simply have to look at what you have, and not declare barefoot better/faster than shoes as a whole.

And sometimes, it may seem like bare has done the most good, when it was the couple of good shod trims that really got things starting to snowball in the right direction.

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I forgot to add, but don’t dare try to edit:

I have also seen NPA issues where bare trimming was not making any progress at all, simply because the angle of the feet couldn’t be improved enough to get the horse sound enough to help get the proper new growth, and without any of that it became a circular cycle. It took shoes for a few cycles to correct the angles right away, to get the horse more comfortable, so he’d use himself better, so he didn’t keep damaging his feet with poor movement.

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This. I have a TB mare with NPA behind. I have posted here before about it, albeit not much. What worked for us: Flip-flops. And time. And my god-send of a farrier who has been willing to think outside the box, go with me to the vet, educate me - answer questions, doesn’t mind my saying why? and what about…?

The flip flop shoe, what it does is float the heels. You do use some sort of packing in it, such as dental impression or equipak, but either which way, it took a little over a year to get her out of them. She is now in steel shoes behind, but even they are modified. She also wears pads (not wedge pads).

Timeline was like this: November '18 took films, applied flip flops. June '19, took new films - before/after trim. The before pics - we were really dismayed as she had gone negative during her cycle. But upon trim, and retake pics, she was perfect! So, she needed a shorter cycle to prevent her backsliding too much. We switched to 4 weeks, and have stayed there.
We did not take her out of the flip flops until…I think January of '20, so she was in them a little over a year. At this point we moved to regular shoes, but within 1 or 2 cycles my farrier was not happy with her heels. So, he modified the shoe by flattening the heel to semi-mimic the flip flop’s ‘floating’. It has worked. He’s done some work with her breakover too, making sure she lands and goes correctly.
We recently were (finally!) able to get new films, and both the before/after pics were really, really good. Her sole depth, her angles, everything looks amazing. Yes, she wants to backslide during the 4-week cycle we have her on. But it’s not horrible, it’s just “her” and will be an ongoing issue for the rest of her life.

If you’re curious about any of this just ask, I’ll try to give more information.

Oh, and nutrition-wise, I use Nu-Hoof Accelerator, along with Uckele Equi VM. Also feed alfalfa along with my grass hay. For a hoof dressing I use that Kevlar product.

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JB I think brings up great points - using a shoe or other appliance (boot, cast) allows an immediate change in the angle of the hoof to the ground, and often the quickest way to improve the low or negative palmar/plantar angle that is associated with long toes and underrun heels. If a horse is unable to move soundly on bare feet, it’s not only cruel to keep them bare out of principle at the expense of comfort, but it will do absolutely nothing to help grow a healthier foot.

Where I think caution is warranted here is that it’s a different thing to change the angle of the foot with an appliance than it is to help the hoof realign its growth and stop the cycle of running forward. They two are not mutually exclusive by any means - they very frequently need to be done in tandem - but it’s just important to remember that to do the former is not necessarily to do the latter, and that’s where I think a lot of hoof care providers end up getting stuck. It’s very easy to have heels continue to be crushed under with wedge pads, so you get improved phalangeal alignment at first but end up locking into a cycle of distorted growth.

When we have a run forward foot, It’s critical to assess the health of the caudal hoof and figure out how we can get those structures working, get the heel tubules to grow at an appropriate angle, and ultimately get the horse to land on those heels to stop the cycle. Getting an immediate better angle is part of that equation, and one that I think plays a big role in the ultimate success and soundness of the horse, but it’s critical that it’s done such that the heel tubules are not locked against an unyielding structure in an inappropriate growth pattern, and that the caudal hoof is stimulated as appropriate to the horse’s comfort at the time. This is where really think that glue on composite packages, casting, and booting - all with appropriate padding - have a huge advantage in rehabbing this issue over traditional shoes and degree pads.

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YES! :yes: The CJF I had did just that. Agreed with the vet that the angle needed to be raised, so put wedge pads on. But he nevvverrrrr fixed the feet :no:

Even the new (uncertified) farrier who did a much better job, didn’t do it well enough, and wedges stayed on. By the time I moved, and had a trimmer help me get shoes off and do that first trim, the trim alone stood the feet up allllmost just as much as those 2* wedges had been, and we went from there. This was the real JB, and we were well on our way to so much healthier feet - from the trimming, not simply taking off shoes - before he died :cry:

When we have a run forward foot, It’s critical to assess the health of the caudal hoof and figure out how we can get those structures working, get the heel tubules to grow at an appropriate angle, and ultimately get the horse to land on those heels to stop the cycle. Getting an immediate better angle is part of that equation, and one that I think plays a big role in the ultimate success and soundness of the horse, but it’s critical that it’s done such that the heel tubules are not locked against an unyielding structure in an inappropriate growth pattern, and that the caudal hoof is stimulated as appropriate to the horse’s comfort at the time. This is where really think that glue on composite packages, casting, and booting - all with appropriate padding - have a huge advantage in rehabbing this issue over traditional shoes and degree pads.

:yes: :yes:

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Bolding mine - isn’t that the best thing to see? I almost cried the first time I got brave enough to try out a new trimming technique that I’d learned on my horse and saw the heel tubules almost literally relax in front of my eyeballs (along with a perpetually bent bar straighten out in one shot). So cool when we can accomplish realignment effectively with a trim!

I remember when I lost my big mare and you so kindly shared some of the real JB’s story with me, so nice to hear another snippet about him :sadsmile:

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This has always blown me away to see just how backing the toe up and bringing the heels back/down can make the foot stand up. It’s hard to visualize and I think Gene Ovnicek has a good visual in his NB videos. Pete Ramey also has a great example in his Under the Horse videos, I think it’s the Founder Donkey clinic video.

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Awwww! He set a high bar against which everyone else has to live up to :lol:

And yes, both of you, until you’ve seen that, it’s just hard to imagine. I mean, you’re not lowering toe height - you’re removing horizontal length. You’re not adding heel height, I mean, they’re crushed, can’t unfold them. But you ARE removing horizontal toe length which is forcing the front of the foot “up”, which lowers the angle. Take that leverage off, and suddenly the foot stands up. So cool.

And IME, the farriers/trimmers who say they can’t fix this without making the horse sore, are thinking they have to remove vertical toe height, and nooooo, that is rarely the case (or not the only thing)

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I’ve been dying to see this with my guy but clearly haven’t found the right person to make it happen. :frowning: I was excited yesterday because two different people independently recommended the same farrier, but I went to one barn to check out his work and wasn’t impressed. The easy horses looked fine but the LTLH one (whose feet I happen to be familiar with) was super short-shod and the heels looked horrible, maybe even worse than my horse. The farrier has only done that horse twice but I can’t see any improvements happening with the way it’s set up. Very disappointing. I do have a call into someone else so we’ll see.

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Good luck, @Libby2563! And good on you for doing the (often exhausting, frustrating, miserable) work of finding the right HCP for your horse. If you’d like to share your location I can see if there is anyone I am aware of who might be able to help - PM if you don’t want to post publicly!

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Thanks a bunch, @kashmere . PMed you!

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I do not know nearly as much as several people on this thread, but it is amazing what an education you get when your own horse has an issue that needs solving. :yes:

For irrational reasons I’m compelled to throw out this one thought, after first putting up a steel umbrella in case of brickbats being thrown. :winkgrin:

OP, if you do go barefoot with one or more feet, and if you feel reasonably comfortable that you know what the hoof shape should be, get a rasp and maintain the shape yourself, while the horse is barefoot. The idea is to keep the foot shaped on a continuous basis, rather than waiting X many weeks between farrier visits. Instead of this endless farrier cycle of the foot growing out and losing shape, and then the farrier comes and brings it in again, fighting the same re-direction over and over, you can make little ongoing corrections on a frequent basis to keep the foot shaped and maintain the direction of growth. That will also help keep the white line where it belongs.

IMO anyone who can file and shape their own fingernails can do some ongoing rasp maintenance of a hoof [dodges flying brickbat thrown by farrier]. At some point you’ll want the farrier to come again, but hopefully the farrier will then be getting something good to work with.

My horse was always growing out the white line along with his toes, making it harder to shape the toes, just as has been described above. While he was barefoot I was determined to keep it all together with a rasp.

I wish I could send you the farrier who saved my horse’s feet. The feet were bad enough on softness and shape, and so hard to manage for progress, that there was even some question if they might be jeopardizing the horse’s useful life. Classic case of a foot that had difficulty holding a nail, and even more difficulty holding the next set of nails after the next shoeing. And had to have shoes to defend the shape. This farrier was an original out-of-the-box thinker and was vastly experienced with, shall we say, unorthodox techniques. He brought those feet back from disaster, even though it took quite a while for nutrition and health improvements to catch it all up to consistency.

Not sure your horse needs this link https://formahoof.com/ (his feet don’t look like an emergency to me), but I wish it had been available when my horse could have used it. It’s more for horses that are missing large hoof chunks, severe founder, and/or have other dastardly problems, and this may be the last chance. But for those who can afford it, used properly, this product will put a foot on a horse. And horses can perform, even race, while wearing it. Just for the interest.

I’ve been meaning to update this thread. By the end of the second cycle with Farrier B it was extremely obvious that it wasn’t working for this horse. Here are photos of him 5 weeks after being shod by Farrier B. I only got pics of the right front and right hind, oops, but you get the picture (not a pretty picture)… Ugh.

My 24-year-old WB was also super uncomfortable near the end of this cycle even though his toes weren’t nearly as long and he has good healthy heels. :frowning:

RH lat before.JPG

RF lat before.JPG

YIKES! Jingles you can find the right person.

Susan

My goodness. Do you have another option for a farrier to try asap ??

Oh sweet geezus - get thee another farrier YESTERDAY!!!

oh my! I hope you can line up someone that can actually get him on the right track quickly. It looks like things are falling apart.

Oh my goodness. I hope you find someone else soon!!

Whoops I don’t know what happened but I guess I hit post prematurely as that was only half the update I intended! Those pics are from a month ago and he has since been fixed up somewhat thank goodness. I ended up going back to Farrier A for now because I struck out elsewhere and didn’t want him to spend any more time with those feet than he already had. He’s barefoot behind and the angles are not perfect but headed in the right direction. The WB is happy now too, although he was the most uncomfortable he’s ever been for shoeing. :frowning: I’m still kind of shocked at how quickly things went bad, especially with a well-reputed CJF. The friend who recommended him to me is still using him and I don’t know whether to mention what happened or mind my own business…

Oh my… :eek: