Works now!
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I am not surprised, that without the rocker, the palmar angles would be flat to low in the fronts. The pads were pulled, and I doubt, in the four weeks of waiting barefoot, that he grew enough heel to be back in balance.
Maybe the rocker shoeing is to take bridge that time until the heel grows?
Do you agree there is too much toe? I do. Plus his forging. That also suggest that the rocker needs to be further back and is too far forward right now.
I doubt the remedy is to reshoe this soon (10 days?), and he will have to live with this for 5 more weeks.
I will get photos of bottoms to check for thrush. Farrier had me pack Magic Cushion in fronts and not pick it out… it seems to have turned to cement and I couldn’t pick it out if I wanted… but that is not the case for the hinds.
You could address the forging issue now. You don’t necessarily have to adjust the trim to make adjustments to the shoe to improve breakover.
Well, new farrier looked at xrays and completely disagrees with shortening the toe, and feels the breakover is just fine where it is with the belly rocker shoe. Farrier thinks that equine vets aren’t current with shoeing and keep going back to standard techniques that farriers are finding don’t work as well as newer ones, and thus discounts my vet’s opinion.
Farrier thinks the tripping and the new forging are a result of something in the hinds. Looking at the right and left hind xrays the P2 bone is “sunk” further away from the hoof wall than the coffin bone, and this leads them to believe it is a hind end issue.
I could not wrap my head around how this relates to the front end, so I can’t explain the logic any better. (And the hinds aren’t really shod any differently than they were with old farrier, so I don’t see what we are doing with the hinds to improve the fronts… arrgh)
My main concern is the tripping and forging, which seem to me to be a front end problem, but hey, I am open, and farrier is adamant.
So I asked what farrier thought would happen in the next five weeks. Their expectation was that the tripping and forging would get better. Since I expected the opposite - thinking more growth would just make it worse - it seemed like a fair experiment. If it gets worse, we change, if it stays the same or gets better, we stay.
Horse is sound, he trips about 5 times in a 40 min training ride. He trips and forges just being hand-walked, so it isn’t just happening when being worked. Trainers feel some of the tripping is because they are asking him to carry his body differently. They think the new forging is because he is loosening up, balancing better and getting a longer stride in back, and will learn to get his fronts out of the way quicker.
This farrier has a good reputation, seems up on corrective shoeing at our regional equine hospital (Alamo Pintado in SoCal). Has made significant improvements to the 20+ horses in my barn. Charges above the going rate. And they prefer to lose me as a client than to change how they have shod.
It is always tough when a vet says one thing and farrier another. I realize farrier probably knows more. I just know my horse didn’t trip and forge with former shoer.
Maybe he will be a better mover with this approach. I like being out of pads, I can see the heel cushion expanding and getting fuller – all good things that weren’t happening before. Maybe the former shoer relieved tripping but was causing a different problem with crushed heels instead.
I really appreciate everyone’s input. It was this forum that identified long toes two years ago and prompted me to move to my former farrier who shortened toe, put on pads, and tripping resolved. You guys always open my eyes.
I am just going to carefully watch and see what happens. I am glad he doesn’t have a glaring negative plantar angle in the back. Fingers crossed that the new farrier is correct and trip/forge are minor hiccups as we migrate away from pads.
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My guy is prone to tripping and forging, and while different body carriage can contribute, if he was moving “better” to cause forging, he wouldn’t be tripping too IMO. I also wouldn’t mind some forging as he gets tired in work. For mine, that is a sign that I need to wrap up the ride as we work on conditioning, because he is getting fatigued. But forging even at the walk?
And based on X-rays mine doesn’t have too much toe. We try not to over trim his toes or you might see them stand camped under some because the heels are too high, relatively. That could cause tripping because the balance is off. But with forging too, he’s just not getting his front feet off the ground fast enough. You can change the shoe placement. Perhaps the belly rocker isn’t right for him, although it did improve palmar angle. But it might need to be set back farther. He is shod pretty full at the toe and short in the heels. He could also grind down the toe of the shoe some so there’s less vertical height at the toe. Plus set it back.
The X-rays may look improved but you have to also look at how the horse is standing and moving.
I do hope it works out for you!
That said, the ‘its my way or no way’ attitude of your farrier makes me scrunch my face up. I agree that not all vets are up to date on the latest therapeutic shoeing techniques, but to not be willing to even consider trying to tweak things is a bit too rigid for me.
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@Heinz_57, scrunches up my face, too. But I also respect people who really believe in what they do and are willing to stand by it. Just wish I could understand why the longer toe wouldn’t make one trip.
I told them “if I had clown shoes on, my break over would still be in the same place, but with 4 inches of extra shoe at my toe, I would certainly trip… so why isn’t the horse the same?” I got an answer about how the curve of the belly rocker would require the toe be too short, etc… and thats where it didn’t make any logical sense to me and I dropped it.
Do you remember those Bear Trap brand platform sandals? Probably in the 70s. They had solid wood bottoms. I recall how difficult it was to get my own breakover working on them, lol. So I sorta like the idea of a rocker vs a flat shoe…
@IPesq, I feel like I can only watch and wait now, but a very good point that better carriage might cause forging, but should reduce tripping. I am sure my trainers are now on alert about him doing either forging/tripping while riding, they had no idea that I was so aware of it, and hope it doesn’t influence what they feel is the right training technique. I really like them as trainers.
I don’t understand either, but at least you’re giving it a try. The tripping would concern me a lot since it seems to be happening so frequently, that’s kind of a safety issue riding-wise. Hopefully if this cycle doesn’t resolve it, your farrier will be more willing to tweak the approach.
Oh boy, I really feel for you, OP! I think choosing and evaluating farriers is one of the hardest parts of horse ownership. I’d been blessed with easy horses (and some “ignorance is bliss” on my part I’m sure) for a long time but have been struggling with one TB’s feet for 1.5 years of ownership now. After feeling like the first farrier wasn’t trimming him quite correctly, I switched to a farrier like you’re describing: excellent reputation, CJF with some rare specialist certifications, did therapeutic work at a vet school, quite expensive, etc.
Well, he let my horses’ toes get so long that at the end of two cycles the TB’s feet were almost unrecognizable and my retiree who always had great feet was lame and miserable. (He had a sort-of-reasonable-sounding explanation about how he prefers to put breakover in the shoe rather than the foot.) After two cycles I went back to the previous farrier and she’s made improvements again, but I am still horrified at how quickly the feet went so bad despite this guy’s top credentials. The current farrier is nowhere near as fancy or qualified on paper, but she does a much better trim and is also open to discussion rather than being all “my way or the highway.” If you’d like to see photos of my guy’s feet they’re on this thread (post 75 shows the long-toe horror show, which I actually thought of posting earlier in your thread as an example of NPA clearly visible without x-rays): Farrier A, Farrier B, or neither?
I’m not saying your guy is in the same category! I just wanted to commiserate and say I recently learned the hard way that credentials, reputation, and price tag sometimes don’t mean as much as we’d like to think…sigh. Oh, and things can go downhill surprisingly quickly.
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I do agree there is too much toe… way too much and that is contributing to the forging. The longer lever keeps his foot on the ground a little longer so they aren’t getting out of the way before the hind foot gets there. It’s impossible to bring the toe back far enough right now but the shoe can be set back and put the breakover where it needs to be now. I really don’t think these rockers are really necessary. If you set the shoe where it needs to be the breakover will be there. You can’t set the shoe full to the toe on a foot like this, it just makes the situation worse by pulling the toe out more and dragging the heels right along with them. This horse doesn’t need anything special, all he needs is a farrier that understands how to balance a foot and correctly place a shoe.
I would ask that his toe be brought back to the white line, or just behind it, every single reset and I would go no longer than 4-5 weeks between resets. Dr Bowker has a lot of great stuff out there about rehabbing feet like these and he has found that keeping that toe back is most important and if you have time the ELPO has a a lot of great videos on YouTube. Their hoof mapping videos are great and are done by an ELPO certified instructor. They help you see where the distortions are and how to address them.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS892US892&tbm=vid&sxsrf=ALeKk018FY_q1rCgV4EOWzJ198Wj5XqJ7w:1607944851177&q=elpo+hoof+mapping&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRt7Ctrc3tAhVSxVkKHSqrD9YQ8ccDKAR6BAgqEBY&biw=1109&bih=623
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and just saw this about the new farrier… sigh… I would keep looking and not give him a chance to just go with the status quo… JMO…forging is almost always caused by a balance issue up front… bringing the toes back speeds the breakover so the foot is out of the way before the hind foot gets there…
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Thanks for this thread all, for taking the time to comment and post rads and photos.
Nothing to add, I am with BHK on this one in every respect.
OP, I get being in the middle. Suffice to say that I also live in SoCal in sport horse competition mecca and the feet I have seen and the lame horses I have been given for free have taught me that fame, expense, and reputation do not always mean understanding or quality or long term good ideas…have been given for free several horses through the years with lameness issues all worked on by the Farriers to the Stars. Its overwhelming to an owner to be between egos.
All of the mentioned horses went sound barefoot with correct trims and some nutritional help. Every one. There were neg palmer/plantar angles, ‘navicular syndrome’, DDFT strains and tears, you name it. All had spent years being addressed by Podiatry Specialist Vets and the FTTSs to no avail.
It is so frustrating to see how much hard working well meant ignorance cripples horses and bankrupts owners.
P, I would listen to your vet. Actually, I would take his shoes off and find a sane trimmer.
Youre a good mom to keep looking and listening. Hope things go well. I would tell Mr FTTSs to pound sand.
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There was a thread some years back of a TB mare being shod by a farrier who shod for Texas A&M for 20 years and I couldn’t believe my eyes… and I have learned a ton more since then… if I remember it right, it was about rocker shoes on the hind feet… I’ll see if I can find it.
eta: I think this is it… unfortunately I’m not sure if all the pictures made it through the boards platform transition but I do see links.
Sigh, the former farrier is an ELPO member. I loved her, very cooperative, and willing to work with vet. I only changed because it was sometimes tough to schedule since I was the only horse she did, and I wanted to get out of pads, and she insisted he couldn’t, as he “didn’t grow heel.” He was shod in Natural Balance PLRs.
I really don’t like dictating to a farrier how they should shoe. I always figure they have a style about them and if they offer alternatives, I can chime in, but if they are pretty positive about what they are doing, I assume they know better.
I am with you on the forging. I fail to see how this will improve as we march on to the next shoeing cycle, and it is likely the straw to break the camel’s back.
@Libby2563, I just looked at your thread and the photos. OMG. I have a sinking feeling.
I can’t get back to the barn for a few days because I was exposed to someone who was exposed and now has a fever (my vet!). Thankfully we were obviously outside, and both masked, but still more than 15 minutes in close proximity going over xrays. Vet is awaiting their PCR test and I can’t go to get tested until tomorrow (Day 6 post exposure), so until then, or vet has negative results, I am in quarantine.
Farrier to the Stars. Love it, lol.
PM me your area and farrier of choice!
And thanks for the concurrence. Being in the middle is hard. I feel like I have three to deal with, since trainers use FTTS on their other clients horses and it has worked out well; I sense they feel they need to defend FTTS, and convince me to have faith that this will resolve positively like it has for their other horses.
We had his shoes off for a month before new farrier shod. But I was worried about working him since he had 3 degree pads removed and his angles would be off – and he needed to be worked! I had him in trail boots, but they were making him trip, as well as the longer toes.
However, it is a relatively good time to see if he can go barefoot. I am recovering from surgery and can’t risk trail-riding, so we are in a nice barn with excellent footing for awhile.
@BlueDrifter the previous farrier definitely had his balance better and I really didn’t see the need for the pad or the wedge. Maybe see if you can talk to her and tell her your concerns about the pads and wanting to try him without them. Barefoot would be the easiest way to start getting him going in the right direction. It will allow for very frequent trims and maybe the farrier can show you how to take the rasp over the toe and heel every couple weeks between trims.
Ugh! I hope you and your vet are okay!! Jingles for the both of you!
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Boy did the email notification I got surprise me. It’s been fun to go back and see where I was then. I was SO SCARED. Currently super glad I did it and actually my Crown Z / Castelino VD Helle mare is also barefoot… Lots of reasons I prefer it.
Horse has been sound ever since- I have had ONCE abcess in the past 5 years. We compete at the same level as prior, have moved to Europe (where it’s even wetter)… I cut all soy/grain/alfalfa out of her diet, and really should take a picture of how crazy thick her hoof walls are these days because it’s insane. The first two years I saw so much adjustment. And this is a horse that NEVER since I bought her, had a healthy palmar angle til I took the shoes off.
If OP has questions, I’m happy to chime in. 
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Nice! I wasn’t sure if you would see that I had linked your thread or not! I can’t believe I found it and remembered it had something to do with rocker shoes! I’m so glad to hear your horses are doing so well and wow… a move to Europe! 
So happy to hear that all continues to go well! And Europe, that is a BIG move.
What prompted you to think the absence of soy/grain/alfalfa increased hoof strength? My guy gets one serving of alfalfa, and a cup of grain to go with vitamins, beet pulp and flax.
How did you keep your horse in work as you migrated to barefoot? Did you wear boots or maintain your normal riding schedule?
